registerd firearms in ca

[Green Giant]

[quote="Bluenot,
And frankly this is corollary to the individual responsibility of EACH and every owner of any sort of firearm to do their level best to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. We each carry that societal responsibility.[/quote]

Well said, we all should carry this responsibility.

 

[dankworth]

Bullet button
Kel-tec RFB
8.1 lb 9.6 loaded 20 rd mag
.308
18" barrel
27.5" OAL

Glock 32/33 357 sig
Underwood Ammo 125 gr speer gold dots @1450 fps, 583 ft-lbs
Extended(5.32") barrel from Lone Wolf Barrels, 1600ish fps, over 700 ft-lbs energy

If you are serious about being able to wreck shit.
Dude be the threat.

 

[dankworth]

Oh wait I forgot you guys have limits on how short your rifles can be, you would have to get a barrel extension "permanently" affixed or something.

 

[dankworth]

.243 or .243 AI in a long barreled bolt action with a 1 in 7 twist will go a mile before going transsonic, at a decent elevation on a warm day with 115 gr DTACs with a .585 BC.
With a Whidden bullet-pointing die, you could get the DTACs to a legitimate .6 BC.
Best thing one can do with a .308 parent case if one is going for trajectory.
Beats 6.5mm for long range performance.

 

[El Cerebro]

If you are serious about being able to wreck shit.

Yeah but that bullpup is gonna put rounds down the street into the neighbors kitchen. Hell, maybe the raced-up glock too for that matter. Of course the right operator will place those tacks with precision, but for typical home defense situations it's not uncommon for combat-naive firearms owner (most of them) to be so disoriented as to put themselves/family/bystanders into even more danger, stray rounds being just one of many.

Tough choices here all around, but def buy training before weapons. Training starts with lots of very sober thought about what it means to actually end a life, long before you're standing there in your underwear trying to react. Firearms are always loaded, always, never need to ask, even when they are taken apart in pieces behave as if loaded. Never point a firearm at anything you don't intend to kill immediately, and NEVER TOUCH a trigger or even have your finger near it, until the moment you are killing. Know exactly what you will do after you kill, and do not change that plan on the scene after it happens. Sounds pretty fun, eh?

[Potentially condescending PSA posted because I don't want to get shot through the wall in my own neighborhood, especially by a fellow gardener who's scared shitless during a home invasion. Keep your gig secret and the rippers won't come.]

 

[dankworth]

El Cerebro, I cannot argue with any of your points.
I have to say that actually having to employ a firearm, even if only to brandish, is the last thing that any sensible person wants.
But then there are lots of dumbasses.

 

[outwest]

El Cerebro, I cannot argue with any of your points.
I have to say that actually having to employ a firearm, even if only to brandish, is the last thing that any sensible person wants.
But then there are lots of dumbasses.

Thank you for saying that, DW.

outwest

 

[Bluenote]

.243 or .243 AI in a long barreled bolt action with a 1 in 7 twist will go a mile before going transsonic, at a decent elevation on a warm day with 115 gr DTACs with a .585 BC.
With a Whidden bullet-pointing die, you could get the DTACs to a legitimate .6 BC.
Best thing one can do with a .308 parent case if one is going for trajectory.
Beats 6.5mm for long range performance.

Uhhhh...........sorry but you're in error on the distance to subsonic. And a great many folks in Fclass and other classes are going to disagree on that " beats 6.5".

For reference I shoot both .22-250 AI , .243 AI and also .22-243 Middlestead. I've backed off on the .20 , the Vartarg was a dissapointment , the .204 Ruger still offers some possibilities.

The .243 AI , and .257 Roberts along with a hotrodded Mauser in 6.5 x 55 are my " wind rifles" for Varmint applications.

And for ' all round' , the .284s are still significantly better than *any* .308 based cartridge . There are a HELL of a lot better .30s out there than the .308 , and you don't have to deal with the chamber issues.

 

[dankworth]

I have seen .284s at .7+ BC I think.
.284 Shehane looks pretty neat.
What's his GA Precision guy was talking about dtacs out of his 26" barrel @ 3150.
JBM Ballistics shows 1 mile+ @ 2500 ft and 75 degrees before down to mach 1. Instability around 1200 fps, right?
Not like I could hit anything, but they could be lobbed in.
Best trajectory w/a.308 case, if the calc is accurate.

I think it was a 180 gr .284 I saw with the awesome BC, was it a Berger?

6mmbr.com was a fantastic resource for figures.
But you F-class types would know way more than I.

The beats 6.5 reference was only in terms of off the .308 parent case. Lower BC, higher speed. I used to be a big fan of the idea of 6.5, but trying to figure out some good long-range strategies that are very low on recoil. More well-aimed shots per unit of time type of thing.
Seeing how 6.5 grendel necked to 6mm is superior in many ways IMO to the original 6.5 grendel case.
Trajectory-wise, anyways.

Thanks for the insights, Bluenote.

 

[Bluenote]

I have seen .284s at .7+ BC I think.
.284 Shehane looks pretty neat.
What's his GA Precision guy was talking about dtacs out of his 26" barrel @ 3150.
JBM Ballistics shows 1 mile+ @ 2500 ft and 75 degrees before down to mach 1. Instability around 1200 fps, right?
Not like I could hit anything, but they could be lobbed in.
Best trajectory w/a.308 case, if the calc is accurate.

I think it was a 180 gr .284 I saw with the awesome BC, was it a Berger?

6mmbr.com was a fantastic resource for figures.
But you F-class types would know way more than I.

The beats 6.5 reference was only in terms of off the .308 parent case. Lower BC, higher speed. I used to be a big fan of the idea of 6.5, but trying to figure out some good long-range strategies that are very low on recoil. More well-aimed shots per unit of time type of thing.
Seeing how 6.5 grendel necked to 6mm is superior in many ways IMO to the original 6.5 grendel case.
Trajectory-wise, anyways.

Thanks for the insights, Bluenote.

Oh boy , another rifle nut. In retrospect my reply to you seemed a bit terse , apology for that , I sometimes see '.308' and get a bit pissy since some folks think it's the be-all end all.

And I shouldn't since of course it's right in their with 7.62 x 54 r and .30-06 ballistically. And yes it was the Berger at 180 , my goTo longrange slug choice in .284 , and you'll note Hardy , Ballard and others are tearing up F class with .284s , nice balance between 6.5 and .30 , better barrel life , less recoil than the stout .30s etc.etc.

And strangely enough , though I've experimented with a great many .284s/7mms I keep coming back to the basic 7mm Rem mag as the best overall compromise as regards the various applicable factors. A lot of folks have gone to the SAUM and the WSM , personally I don't see any great benefit over the 7mm rem-mag , I'm seeing similar velocities out of the same length barrels. The shorter action is a positive for some folks but for me " shrug"
And barrels in SAUM , WSM or 7mmSTW are gone a *lot* sooner than in 7mm rem-mg.

 

[El Cerebro]

that's a big closet there, hefty set of reloading toys, must be pretty organized to keep track of all that matched-brass

 

[dankworth]

Oh boy , another rifle nut. In retrospect my reply to you seemed a bit terse , apology for that , I sometimes see '.308' and get a bit pissy since some folks think it's the be-all end all.

And I shouldn't since of course it's right in their with 7.62 x 54 r and .30-06 ballistically. And yes it was the Berger at 180 , my goTo longrange slug choice in .284 , and you'll note Hardy , Ballard and others are tearing up F class with .284s , nice balance between 6.5 and .30 , better barrel life , less recoil than the stout .30s etc.etc.

And strangely enough , though I've experimented with a great many .284s/7mms I keep coming back to the basic 7mm Rem mag as the best overall compromise as regards the various applicable factors. A lot of folks have gone to the SAUM and the WSM , personally I don't see any great benefit over the 7mm rem-mag , I'm seeing similar velocities out of the same length barrels. The shorter action is a positive for some folks but for me " shrug"
And barrels in SAUM , WSM or 7mmSTW are gone a *lot* sooner than in 7mm rem-mg.

I think maybe I read something about the short, fat cases getting the same MV from less powder due to increased combustion efficiency or something. Can't remember where or anything.

At this point I would like a Kel-tec RFB with a 22" .243 barrel. It would suffice for long range, and be a good entry gun. Good for carrying into and out of buildings and vehicles, etc when compared directly to AR carbines.

Stan Crist had some things to say about a proposed "6mm optimum" cartridge, that would be just shy of a .243. 100 gr vld, .540 BC, 3000 fps, that sort of thing. .243 out of a semi-auto would probably run about those figures.

I know, I know, I just said Kel-tec. The shame.

7mm mag for sure would have the advantage of standardized and readily available brass and reloading equipment I bet.

I thought everybody had a clear understanding of the limitations of the .308 case lol.
155 gr Lapua at .508 seems the best arrangement. 155 Berger after being run through a bullet-pointing die is alleged to match that performance, and Bergers from what I read are more suitable for hunting than, for instance, that 155 Lapua. But don't know from experience.

 

[Bluenote]

I think maybe I read something about the short, fat cases getting the same MV from less powder due to increased combustion efficiency or something. Can't remember where or anything.

At this point I would like a Kel-tec RFB with a 22" .243 barrel. It would suffice for long range, and be a good entry gun. Good for carrying into and out of buildings and vehicles, etc when compared directly to AR carbines.

Stan Crist had some things to say about a proposed "6mm optimum" cartridge, that would be just shy of a .243. 100 gr vld, .540 BC, 3000 fps, that sort of thing. .243 out of a semi-auto would probably run about those figures.

I know, I know, I just said Kel-tec. The shame.

7mm mag for sure would have the advantage of standardized and readily available brass and reloading equipment I bet.

I thought everybody had a clear understanding of the limitations of the .308 case lol.
155 gr Lapua at .508 seems the best arrangement. 155 Berger after being run through a bullet-pointing die is alleged to match that performance, and Bergers from what I read are more suitable for hunting than, for instance, that 155 Lapua. But don't know from experience.

Yes in theory the short , fat propellant column is more efficient , reality is that it's of very limited advantage and then only in lighter slug weights , when you get to heavier slugs the short mags are a 100 fps and more down on the Rem mag , the whole concept was an answer to a problem that really didn't exist in the 'sporting' sense , and the attempt to cram long-action magnum power into a short-action rifle is a failure as regards larger game , the SAUM , WSM and the Ultra are all less efficient of dangerous and large game than the original Rem-mag.

And rather humorous and telling that you mention 155 at .308 , keep in mind the Palma ammo is standardised at 155 and there are good reason for that.

And far be it from me to laugh at the concept of a Keltec or the like in .243 , or .257 roberts , .260 etc.etc. , I've never been a big fan of .223/5.56 and have always felt they should have looked very closely further up.

The .24 to .26 sweetspot is another of my favorites , particularly .243 and .257 and it seems that like 7mm rem-mag there's always a .243 of some sort in my safe , usually more than one.

Hmmm........entry dynamics. Sorry but I like smoothbores for the task , just a personal peculiarity. But then such things are a 'horses for courses and different jockeys' sort of thing.

The hardest thing to find in the world is the hypothetical ' all round rifle" , any such choice will inevitably leave a base or bases uncovered.

And then of course I tend towards the innately practical in some cases , folks can laugh all they wish but ( for instance) a Mosin-Nagant can be had DIRT cheap , they're dead nuts easy to work on ( not that the damn thing is going to ever break short of getting run over by a tank) surplus ammunition is ridiculously cheap. And ballistically 7.62x54r is essentially a very slightly slower '06. And hell you can pour vodka down the barrel or pee down it ( it's in one manual...seriously) to clean it.

And keep in mind what Simo Hayha did with one. Talk about Pyrrhic Victories , cost the Soviets a *lot* to take Finland.

If you * really* want a " crossover autoloader" , consider this.......buy yourself a BAR in the chambering and barrel length YOU want , with the BOSS system , throw premium glass on it and source high cap mags for it , yes they are around.

And you're still way less into it than a high end ARForgery or the like , the BAR is ultra reliable , even in *very* cold climates and in .338 win mag with ghost ring sights and the 8 round mags in quite likely the best big bear defensive rifle one can carry , though the model 95 Guide Gun in .45-70 is a very close second. And neither is unreasonable as regards recoil from my standpoint , but then I'm not real susceptible to recoil ( within reason).

As you can likely tell , I've a rifle 'Jones' , that's balanced by brutal sensibility and ruthless utilitarianism as regards sidearms. My views sometimes incite arguement though not intended to. And if a given sidearm isn't a shooter and deadnuts reliable it has a VERY short half-life here. I also like wheelguns , which is distinctly out of fashion nowadays , but I'm very good with them. I also dislike 9 x 19 and Plastic , and you couldn't give me another 1911 from Colt themselves if you PAID me to take it , not when you can get a SIG or Springfield and they shoot right straight from the box , few Colts will without any work.

And while I despise the spirit of Bill Ruger , well I sure as hell am not getting rid of any Ruger Wheelguns any time soon , not with the way they've performed over three decades and longer , yeah I like S and W , but the fact is they aren't nearly as tough or as reliable.

And then there are the well known Glock 'Kaboom' problems , the fact of which seems to upset some folks when you tell them to stick to over the counter pressures and not start hotloading it without an aftermarket barrel.

 

[Bluenote]

that's a big closet there, hefty set of reloading toys, must be pretty organized to keep track of all that matched-brass

You have no idea , and every few years one has to clean house and sell off a buncha stuff that somehow just seemed to grow there , and then there is powder expense , it's gone way up the last few years what with all the hysteria , brass has gone up and quality has gone down , all sorts of stuff is backordered , runs on loaded ammunition all over the country etc.etc.

Some folks have other sorts of hobbies , this is just my version of the moneypit.

 

[dankworth]

Good info Bluenote, about MV disadvantages w/shorter fatter cases w/heavyweights. All I would want to shoot is heavyweights, except 308 where there is no advantage to most 175s over 155s.
Got a Benelli, can fit 9 2 3/4 shells, dig it. Need a kel-tec ksg apparently soon. Have you seen that bullpup shotgun? 14+1 capacity? 27" oal or something? 2 feed tubes? Pretty ingenious.
Never really got into rifles with the combloc ammo, lots of virtues though.
Seen Armstech and the like making pretty neat autos off the BAR action. Read about the boss system when it came out in like '94. Nobody else seemed to get it, but I was excited about the promise of 1/2" 5 shot group potential at 100 yds, for a reasonable price. Otherwise a steyr ssg @ 2500$ or so seemed to be the cheapest precision bolt action.
Then I saw an article with Savage group sizes, wow. So much value. Floating bolt head FTW.
Never got into wheelguns. Watching Jodie Foster reload in the end of Silence of the Lambs was the clincher.
Very big fan of a Glock 32. Owned Sigs, sweet gun, high bore axis, not the subaru of handguns like the glock. Glock triggers build character. But best for my purposes.
My weapon will get 1450 fps with a 125 grain with the right ammo. Slightly extended 4.6" barrel I will get will get over 1500. 5.32" barrel will get right up next to 1600, w/same OAL for weapon as 5" govt model .45. But 700 ft/lbs or so.
My chamber is fully supported. I would buy an aftermarket .40 barrel, not Glock factory, they are not fully supported, so kB!s. Same with Glock .45s, since they built it on the 10mm platform, not fully supported feed ramp.
You sure can service a piece of paper rapidly with 9mm. I would not consider anything but +P or +P+ in 9. Mine can convert to .40, 9, .22, so pretty versatile.
Had an HK tactical, nice trigger, usual HK design features, pretty cool, huge weapon.
Not into .45, I like 9mm size grip frames.

 

[purpleberry]

Bullet button
Kel-tec RFB
8.1 lb 9.6 loaded 20 rd mag
.308
18" barrel
27.5" OAL
.

I didnt read all your other posts about guns, But I can tell you, You can in way have over 10 rounds in any gun in CA if you have a bullet button on it. Go to cal guns and use there flow charts to make sure you have your gun legal. If you get caught with a BB and a 20 round clip in it you will never be able to own a gun again, they will charge you with a assult weepon.
Id never give up my right to protect my self, But I also dont keep my gun collection at a grow, that just asking for trouble. I keep one simple legal gun next to my head at night.

 

[dankworth]

Thanks for the specific info, purpleberry. Cali has lots of things to get right I bet.
I do not have a anything at the site myself, the two are not as compatible as I might like.

 

[Bluenote]

Dank , due respect but it's not about *speed* , it's about the accuracy of the first two downrange. There are a plethora of 'Pistol Gurus' around nowadays who don't know their asses from a hole in the ground who are selling their crap to folks for big bucks.


And you had the common sense to make the requisite mods to your Glock , most don't , and how many folks have you seen limpwristing a Glock and wondering why they're getting it jammed up? But then a great many folks have seen too many movies.

I only load for a few sidearm cartridges .357 and .44 mags .45 acp and then .38 super and .44 special.

We're getting into sticky issues here since it's coming around to CCW and some folks get offended. Suffice to say that I think a degree of training and qualification should be necessary , but then again I came up under Cooper at the old Gunsite so I'm a dinosaur.

By the way the Super gets 125 jhps stacked over 10.8 grains or so of N105 for 1450 or so out of Commander length.........sounds familar 'eh? Very undersung cartridge.

.44 special is another one , folks forget that Elmer Keith developed the .44 mag from the .44 specials he was hotrodding , and the N frame Smiths stand up to .44 special but not the real hot .44 mag , not like a Ruger. The limited edition Combat Model 24 smiths with the 3 in and round butt are a *really* special sidearm.

By the way if you want something interesting to watch sometime then go find yourself a Cowboy Action Shooting match........you'll be amazed..gauranteed.......google Bob Munden sometime too......

 

[dankworth]

I will check out Bob Munden.
I read an article in the nineties that extolled the virtues of the .44 special. I think for a revolver, I would have to get a 6" 357 Magnum and handload. But turned off by revolvers kind of. Cool though.
I do like the lighter, faster bonded rounds more than the slow, heavy handgun projectiles in terms of weighing one against the others. Less recoil, more capacity, better for many things. I see you savvy 125gr-at-1450fps philosophy. My Glock took a lot of getting used to, but it has many compelling advantages for me vs a 1911 type design. Like cost for starters haha. Loud, though. .45's lower chamber pressure would be best if one had to discharge inside a building. Like a shotgun vs rifle kind of thing. Because then if you discharge, it may be hard to hear homey coming round the corner.
I've been longing for a Viridian C5L light/laser for a bit. And those newer Meprolight adjustable combat sights, rear is shielded by wings a bit so you can drop or bump it. Maybe an extended mag release would be fun. And a Gen 4 version of the 32. And...
Cooper had a bunch of shit figured out. Quite a bit of stuff seems like it is built off his work.
I have not kept track with the "cool guy" shooting schools yet, I imagine there may be some posing going on. I try to not overlook fundamentals. Which means I need more practice.
Dude I read 38 Super gave people "super face" before they started messing with all the racegun calibers.
I am digging Underwood Ammo's figures for velocity, and their extensive use of the Speer Gold dots. Like Doubletap was supposed to be.
As far as speed, I have always thought that the ability to efficiently hit, instead of efficiently miss, was of paramount importance.

I thought everybody understood that a weapon like a Glock with frame that weighed a couple ounces had no inertia in the frame due to light weight, and that a firm grip was required to operate the weapon as intended. Why Glocks are classically undersprung, so people who fire weak-handed or something can still make the weapon cycle I guess.
Yeah, CCW sensitive issue to some for sure.

Dude I tell you one thing I have learned from movies about gunfights. Engaging in a gunfight without wearing a bullet-resistant vests is inadvisable. I would rather not be shot, but if I had to be, a vest would be a great thing to have on.

 

[Bluenote]

Hey Dank , you might consider rolling your own , a lot more control over your ammunition and you'll save quite a bit in the long run.

As regards the .357/.38/9mm crowd...........357 mag is still the top
of the bunch , the Hatcher scale is much argued about nowadays but there's no denying the sweet spot at .358 and 125 grains turned at 1300 and over , and it's easy to see well past the 1600 fps mark out of a six inch revolver at that weight , well up on the rest of the pack , the other sweet spot is the .44-.45 crowd tossing a 185 to 200 at 1100 or better.