Bluenote said:

Hey Dank , you might consider rolling your own , a lot more control over your ammunition and you'll save quite a bit in the long run.

As regards the .357/.38/9mm crowd...........357 mag is still the top
of the bunch , the Hatcher scale is much argued about nowadays but there's no denying the sweet spot at .358 and 125 grains turned at 1300 and over , and it's easy to see well past the 1600 fps mark out of a six inch revolver at that weight , well up on the rest of the pack , the other sweet spot is the .44-.45 crowd tossing a 185 to 200 at 1100 or better.

Click to expand...

I fully intend on rolling my own, but for defensive purposes I of course would have to choose factory ammo. But yeah, I want to reload for sure. Been intending to for years, but could not get caught up on life, undiagnosed Crohn's holding me back for years.
I have many fun ideas for reloading for my Glock platform and others, I nerd out on the math a bit to find the advantages.
There is some magic to a 125 at 1300 or more. And I can see the magic in the .45s like you said. I am stuck on the 9mm size grip frame for a while. W/an extended .40 barrel, and said Underwood ammo, one can come close to true 10mm ballistics. Not quite, but pretty healthy.
One day I would like to get enough practice in to be able to duplicate the performance I could exhibit playing first-person shooters on the computer.
I have become better at some things than most people, I believe with enough diligence I could perform at a high level. Like playing a sport. Certain level of purity to that.
I think if I was to have a .45 size weapon, I might be compelled to run 10mm. ]
But I believe that my G32 is a great combination of features, including stopping power.
I read for over a hundred hours trying to find anecdotal accounts of stops from .357s and .357 sigs. Tried to understand what happens at what velocity borders and why.

Edit-.357 sig should be marginally more expensive than 9mm to shoot once I am set up.

Dank...........add a scale , case trimmer a few other items. I've got a few of these , they're handy enough to go to the range and on trips. Good inexpensive way to get started.

http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press-kit.html

Bluenote said:

Dank...........add a scale , case trimmer a few other items. I've got a few of these , they're handy enough to go to the range and on trips. Good inexpensive way to get started.

http://leeprecision.com/breech-lock-hand-press-kit.html

Click to expand...

Thanks, Bluenote. I have so much catching up to do that I will be reloading in 2013 it looks like.

.45 ACP

It will knock a man to the ground if it hits his thumb.

My buddies wife shot a robber with a Beretta 92f 9mm. He turned around and walked off.

I traded my Beretta for a Colt the next week.

FTW....I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

It would take too long to type all the reasons why, but the caliber choice of 357 sig was a very carefully considered choice. I feel confident that 357 sig will equal or exceed the performance of a .45 ACP in stopping power, as in immediate stopping effect. 125 gr gdhp @1450 fps, anyways. And less recoil, smaller weapon. Best for my particular needs.
But many are big fans of .45s, for good reason.
If I had to pick between the two for causing an assailant to cease aggressive violent action as quickly as possible, I would select my caliber over a .45.
There are other unique capabilities of the 357 sig caliber, but I don't want to go into them here.

I'm pretty sure that if either one of us had to engage an opponent, they would not be turning and walking off at any point. Even if we had to engage with 9mm Berettas.
Fuck what a big weapon that is.

Owned a .45. Got rid of it. Kept the Glock.

Small frame commanders model.

I shoot balls...no fancy ammo.

Belly skin will stretch 8 inches before the bullet penetrates it with a .45 ACP ball.

I dont care about talons. Gimme a sloooow movin ball ammo ... outta a .45 and something is gonna fall down.

I wonder what ball ammo from the 357 would do? Prolly scary shit.

In South Carolina they began to allow the troopers to carry auto's after a trooper emptied a .38 into a crackhead...the crackhead managed to squeeze off one before he went down and it killed the cop.

Big Caliber Automatics are my personal choice. Jamming is a non-issue with a good gun and quality ammo these days.

My wife has a sig .380. I am having hell finding ammo for that one.

Ball ammo does not expand, so it does not impart energy to the target well. So fmj ammo will want to penetrate to a depth of like 20-24" or so.
I read long ago that the average depth of a human torso was 9.7". And skin, when the bullet was coming to rest inside the torso, because of it's elasticity, counted for up to 4 inches.
And 70% of cop shootings are non-frontal(either not quartering frontal or it had to defeat a barrier/obstacle of some sort), whereas most civilian shootings tend to be quartering frontal shots.
So if you had to shoot a man in the chest, and did so with ball ammo, you have a rather good chance of overpenetrating the chest cavity, and having the bullet fly somewhere else once it exits the target.
Whereas a hollowpoint of conventional design often gets 12-15" of penetration because of the increased resistance of passing through tissue when expanded.
This also means that more energy will go into creating a wound channel when using a hollowpoint, and more energy transfer=more damage to target, and thereby greater "stopping power". Seeing as how the goal is to force the target to cease aggressive violent action.
I like to see gelatin tests done with the FBI protocol to get around 15" of penetration with the "heavily clothed" test. Unlikely to overpenetrate on a quartering frontal shot, so better stopping power, less liability of overpenetration. Having the bullet not stop in the target, and overpenetrate, and flying somewhere past that is a scary thought. And then there are the potential legal liabilities associated with any overpenetration event.
I might advise you to consider employing a conventional hollowpoint, the Speer Gold Dot tends to be the standard by which others are judged for some time now. It will stop an assailant faster than ball ammo.
Given that energy tends to = damage, and energy is mass x (velocity)squared, a 10% velocity gain will result in a 21% gain in energy, that kind of thing.
Underwood ammo has some of the hottest defensive loadings out there that will still be within safe chamber pressures, they are what the old Doubletap Ammo used to be.

Hunting with jhp vs ball will show a clear picture of the nature of energy distribution. Better stopping power with a good defensive hollowpoint design than with ball or fmj design. Transferring all energy into the intended target.
Could your wife be talked into shooting 9mm+p maybe?

That cool man, thanks.

You ever hit meat with a 45 ball...up close?

I have. Its brutal.

In close range......a ball packs more of a whallop, In a 45acp, imho.

FWIW...Thats the 45 only. I dont use balls in the 9mm short or anything else. i totally agree.

I am talking about a 20 foot shot with the balls. Next time you go shooting fill some milk jugs up with water and watch what the ball does up close from a 45acp. It may suprise you.

In a hunting round they need time to start spinning and tumbling....in short quarters hllow points dont work right. Correct? I heard this years ago, I dunno...

All hollowpoints vary from one another, but they will invariably initiate expansion at about 2-4" of penetration through tissue.
FMJ projectiles for rifles tend to be designed to tumble end-over-end through tissue to transfer energy faster, and fragment if possible in tissue.
FMJ projectiles from handguns tend to not tumble inside tissue, so they poke holes straight through.
At close distances, hollowpoints will do great. They tend to be designed to function optimally within a certain velocity window, which ends up being from contact distance out to as much as 50 yards until the projectile slows down enough to have a significant impact on its ability to expand appropriately and thus transfer energy.

Close distances in fact favor hollowpoint ammo more.
And then there are still the overpenetration concerns.
http://t1.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSZuoe_Xr0RZwWblcGQtUUy6qUi8-Ju7Qmq4OB5MTKCfYkg7K2_
a .45 Gold Dot after expansion
http://t1.invalid.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTwWGYuOv2-gIeu2E__NiIY_5vE3kP2aGVSFjQPKRiwwIq3Msp9cw
this gives a good idea of frontal area and resistance

Hollowpoints stop bad guys faster, as long as they penetrate far enough to reach the vitals(heart, lungs). Many people in the know tend to like 12-15" of penetration in gelatin tests.

I am talking about the distance from muzzle to target being 10-20 foot range.

Not what happens after strike.

In an AR15 .223 the round takes many yards to start tumbling to create maximun damage.

10 feet from the end of the muzzle...its not doing nearly the damage it does once the round gets 50 yards out.

I always assumed this was the case with ALL rounds that require a tumble or spin to gain effectiveness? I sure dont know for sure. I have hunted hogs with a 45. When the bite dogs get them held, I pop them. The balls are cheap and man...they put a shockwave down their backs when you hit them.

You know what they say about ASS U ME ing though....lol...

I always figured...the way those rounds hit those pigs....if it hit a man like that up close...Jesus...

Do those rounds perform like that at point blank distances?

Maybe that is a more understandable question...lol...

In an AR-15, or any long gun with a rifled barrel, the projectile is gyroscopically stable. It rotates in flight like an arrow, to specifically avoid yawing in flight. It will fly point-first in a straight line towards the target(not a straight line, it follows a trajectory, but you get the point).
The 62-grain M855 projectile currently used by our military yaws after several inches in tissue. It is heavier in the back due to its lead core(steel tip in front, is lighter). In flight, the act of rotation keeps it flying straight.
Then it enters tissue, mostly water. Water is like 500 times more dense than air. So this projectile, because it has more weight in the back, will be induced to tumble. And if it is traveling over 2500 fps on impact, it will fragment. Above 2700 fps or so, the lead core will fragment violently.
All of the serious wounding potential of an m855 projectile from an AR-15/M16 takes place at 2700 fps or more. So within 100 yards or so from a 20" barrel.
But it does not tumble while in flight.
Of course, hollowpoints in .223/5.56 nato behave differently, they will typically fragment more violently.
All of these projectiles will do more damage at the muzzle than at 50 yards, because they have more energy to impart, and react more violently when encountering tissue.
Get some hollowpoints for your .45, and shoot hogs with it. Then examine the wound channel, and compare it to the wound channel of a ball round. Then draw your own conclusions.
If you were standing next to me and had to shoot a bad guy to get me out of hot water, I would want you to shoot him with a well-designed hollowpoint.

If I were to be shot, I would hope and wish that I were shot with a fmj round, because then I would have a much much smaller wound channel in me, and much better odds of being able to continue functioning.
Blast some hogs with well-designed(ideally bonded) hollowpoints, you will see what I mean.

Gun show this weekend.:D

Got any suggestions for brands?

That gold dot looks mean as fuck.

Mississip Hip said:

Small frame commanders model.

I shoot balls...no fancy ammo.

Belly skin will stretch 8 inches before the bullet penetrates it with a .45 ACP ball.

I dont care about talons. Gimme a sloooow movin ball ammo ... outta a .45 and something is gonna fall down.

I wonder what ball ammo from the 357 would do? Prolly scary shit.

In South Carolina they began to allow the troopers to carry auto's after a trooper emptied a .38 into a crackhead...the crackhead managed to squeeze off one before he went down and it killed the cop.

Big Caliber Automatics are my personal choice. Jamming is a non-issue with a good gun and quality ammo these days.

My wife has a sig .380. I am having hell finding ammo for that one.

Click to expand...

Ball ammunition is U S E L E S S and overpenetrative. And shitcan the " hit 'em in a pinkie and kill 'em with .45 acp" , at least shitcan it around me because it's pure D B U L L S H I T.

If ya want a shitload of .45 acp loading that *actually* work , say the word and I'll overload you. , but quit promoting myths.....if ya don't then I'll have to destroy every one of 'em right in front of you , starting with the " hardball" bullshit. Reread the thread and see if ya want to brace me on this **especially** on .45 acp.

" Slow movin" , do you even understand that a certain velocity threshold is necessary for expansion , along with the corollary FACT that there ain't NO appreciable expansion with hardball.

Why ya think my anti-personnel loadings in .45 acp are built around freaking flying ashtrays like the HydraShoks? .357 loads are built around a lightly jacketed JHP and FLYING , care to take a guess what the 125 grain .357 and a 200 grain .45 acp Hydrashok copy expand to in ballistic gelatin? 500 fps difference in velocity by the way.

That .380 , load it with Glasers if it'll feed them and call it a day. And if you're in an urban environment or even have neighbors close then frigging quit utilising Hardball as defensive ammunition.......*overpenetration can kill bystanders , innocents and non-combatants**

And by the way , not all auto-pistols feed all ammunition reliably , and some " Big NAmes" need extensive work before they'll even do that.

Mississip Hip said:

That cool man, thanks.

You ever hit meat with a 45 ball...up close?

I have. Its brutal.

In close range......a ball packs more of a whallop, In a 45acp, imho.

FWIW...Thats the 45 only. I dont use balls in the 9mm short or anything else. i totally agree.

I am talking about a 20 foot shot with the balls. Next time you go shooting fill some milk jugs up with water and watch what the ball does up close from a 45acp. It may suprise you.

In a hunting round they need time to start spinning and tumbling....in short quarters hllow points dont work right. Correct? I heard this years ago, I dunno...

Click to expand...

Yeah , well Dank is being *nice*. Me ? That's a different story , I don't much care for folks who rattle and howl and yet don't know shit from shinola on the subject they walked in on.


And if you'd *EVER* , " shot meat" within the framework you're attempting to sell if on you'd be keeping your freaking mouth clapped shut about it.

Bluntly , you're full of shit. Ball is not any more " effective" ***anywhere*** , and that includes right up close enough to leave powder stippling.

And that " in hunting they need time to tumble and spin"..................ROTFLMAO , I haven't even read the rest of thread yet but I'll give ten to 1 odds that you'll now run your yap behind all the " keyholing and tumbling" stories connected with .223/5.56.

By the way , it's BALL ammo or HARDBALL..................BALLS are round and ya use 'em in muzzleloaders etc along with hanging off the back of a dog.

Wanna talk firearms , love to..............but quit trying to impress folks , just be REAL for cripes sake.

For some realities as regards stopping power ( though these are argued about nowadays of course) do some research on the Hatcher Scale and take a look at Marshall and Sanows work , flawed model and data management notwithstanding. That's just to start.

Bullet construction plays a very , very large factor in stopping power regardless of target , and what's apropriate for one target is completely inapropriate for another.

As regards .45 acp , start simple , stack a 185 or 200 jhp over 8.5 grains of Unique , now chrono that and do some expansion test , then take your typical crap 800 fps ( sometimes less) commercial hardball and do the same.............then get back to me on which is more effective.

Start reloading your own , you really need to in order to get the best out of .45 acp , or else pay through the nose for any decent ammunition.

Hope you caught what I said about the Glasers for your wifes .380 but ***make sure they feed reliably*** , frankly if it was me I'd just replace that .380 with a 3 and an 1/8 barreled SP101 in .357 and stuff it with something that's still moving 1250 or better out of the 3 tube.

But then I don't much care for .380 or for that matter a whole slew of the utter crap below .38special , 9 x 19 and 9x18 etc...some of those chambering being answers to questions that were never asked in the first damn place example : .32 H and R mag...........ok now ya got a weak .38 with a lot lighter slug and less diameter......and the point of the exercise was???

Bluntly, fuck off.

You tellin me I haven't seen what I have seen?

LOL....you are a tard. Popping off tech knowledge on reloads doesn't impress me, little daddy.

My dick is overpenetrative. You wanna see it?...doesn't make it useless....

Go start using your guns for something besides bragging. You might learn a thing or two if you hop out of Guns and Ammo and actually kill something.:)

Mississip Hip said:

I am talking about the distance from muzzle to target being 10-20 foot range.

Not what happens after strike.

In an AR15 .223 the round takes many yards to start tumbling to create maximun damage.

10 feet from the end of the muzzle...its not doing nearly the damage it does once the round gets 50 yards out.

I always assumed this was the case with ALL rounds that require a tumble or spin to gain effectiveness? I sure dont know for sure. I have hunted hogs with a 45. When the bite dogs get them held, I pop them. The balls are cheap and man...they put a shockwave down their backs when you hit them.

You know what they say about ASS U ME ing though....lol...

I always figured...the way those rounds hit those pigs....if it hit a man like that up close...Jesus...

Click to expand...

I called that one. Figured the crap surrounding .223 was where you got the notions. Bluntly , you're completely incorrect. Think about this logically , is the most efficient way of cutting through the air ***accurately*** " rolling and tumbling"?

Think you'll hit diddly squat via " rolling and tumbling"? If so then let me disabuse you of that notion , and you can *believe* that I've pushed quite a number of cartridges to their ballistic instability levels over the years , along with quite a few projectiles attendant to such projects.

You want " roll and tumble" , throw some marbles in a shotshell then , but it most definitely ain't a what you're looking for with a rifle or pistol cartridge.

And for someone who claims certain things you sure use rather odd nomenclature , I've hunted hogs quite literally from coast to coast in this country , I *keep* Catch dogs , never heard anyone refer to 'em as " bite dogs"...........and by the way , leveling down on a hog while another mans dogs have it caught gonna create you some problems some fine day , I know that you screw up and poke a hole through one of my Blackmouths doing that and there'd be a *real* problem.

By the way , .45 acp and .357 work on Southern hogs............forget 'em on the West Coast and in many areas forget the catch dogs , unless you like burying dogs in the field.

Certain areas of California have the biggest , meanest , fastest and most aggressive hogs in the country. This is a fact though sure as shit some southern boy will pop up and try to dispute it , it's still a fact..........and I grew up on southern hogs. 400 lbs isn't even particularly a reason to raise an eyebrow out here anymore.

My preference is spot and stalk with a handgun for hogs , and though many have gone to the Casull and up I'm still using .44 mag , and still using 2 loads I settled on years ago that were actually bear defense loads What folks utilise for hogs in the way of the .45 range are .45 long colts , usually stoked to the gills and 325 to 340 grain slugs , lotsa Casulls , the new .460s and the like haven't really caught fire.

Mississip Hip said:

Bluntly, fuck off.

You tellin me I haven't seen what I have seen?

LOL....you are a tard. Popping off tech knowledge on reloads doesn't impress me, little daddy.

My dick is overpenetrative. You wanna see it?...doesn't make it useless....

Go start using your guns for something besides bragging. You might learn a thing or two if you hop out of Guns and Ammo and actually kill something.:)

Click to expand...

Bluntly , you fuck of there Faux Boy. You know shit from shinola about ballistics , what load works best , what a given hardball loading actually does , or anything else.

As for " shooting something" BWAHAHAHAHAAAAA ...more dick wagging 'eh Peckerwood.

Popping off 'eh , like your bullshit myths long ago disproved as regards .45 acp perhaps , fucking catch up Elmer Fudd , that crap was disproven in the freaking FORTIES.

And guess what clown , I'll run any course of fire against you that you want .45 against .45........course now this is where you wave that thing you CALL a dick and thump your pigeon chest and spout ' But we GoTS TA BES MEEEN MEN Anaaa uuhhh KEEEL something".........

' Bout sum it up there BOY? Hmmmm wee one , titte' couchon n'est pas? Wassamatta there , wade in de' pond making a big stir and find a snapping turtle didya?

See clown , it's folks such as yourself who reinforce every damned Yankee stereotype of the south and indeed lend a degree of credence to many of them.

Here's the reality , you won't " talk tech" because you CAN'T " talk tech" , you're a fake trumpeting about some shit you heard from Uncle delmer with perhaps some very limited experience.

And you came into a fairly serious and quite civil conversation in a hig and might and denigratory manner..........spouting erroneous *bullshit* , refutable *bullshit* as if it were gospel truth.

And now your butt is chapped at being called on it. You're a wimp without the stonies to admit when you're in error.

Now tell me some more , do your monkeymacho dance and pound on your chest and say " Ya GOTS to KeEeeEEEALLLLL" some more , it's hilarious.

Oh and by the Way there Miss Chronically Unhip ..........your crap advice is DANGEROUS to any who would take it as Gospel. Just what folks need in an apartment building , some damned fool cutting loose with a mag of hardball.

Again DANGEROUS , along with highly irresponsible. I do however thank for providing a textbook example of what an actual " fool with a gun" looks like. You've served a purpose in the end.

You sure do talk alot. Typical keyboard cowboy.

This has been my field side arm for 15 years of hunting.

I didn't claim to know a lot about ballistics. I know alot about hunting and killing game, which you obviously do not. I have never "run a course". I dont pay to shoot my guns. Fuck a gun range. Thats for city folk.

You have no clue what all I have killed with this pistol.

Again, you are a fucking tard.