Role of surfacants in soil...i.e. dr. bronners liquid soap

[ShutUpDonny]

Isn't Oregonism a root-supporting myco/fungal innoculant? Never would have thought it was beneficial to leaves... Learn something every day!

I'll try to get some actual science on castile soap v. microherd. I can't find anything specific online, which is somewhat disturbing given that so many people support the idea of small amounts of soap being "safe." I hope it's true, as it would make my life a lot easier, but I'd like to see something to back it up before i employ it.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Isn't Oregonism a root-supporting myco/fungal innoculant? Never would have thought it was beneficial to leaves... Learn something every day!

I'll try to get some actual science on castile soap v. microherd. I can't find anything specific online, which is somewhat disturbing given that so many people support the idea of small amounts of soap being "safe." I hope it's true, as it would make my life a lot easier, but I'd like to see something to back it up before i employ it.

I get exactly where you're coming from ShutUpDonny.

 

[HumboldtDr]

Isn't Oregonism a root-supporting myco/fungal innoculant? Never would have thought it was beneficial to leaves... Learn something every day!

I'll try to get some actual science on castile soap v. microherd. I can't find anything specific online, which is somewhat disturbing given that so many people support the idea of small amounts of soap being "safe." I hope it's true, as it would make my life a lot easier, but I'd like to see something to back it up before i employ it.

me too. i even went to put some in water once and it was pretty tough to dissolve. would like to learn more....

 

[phenotyper]

Okay, I have done some searching, and I came across Surfactin, a powerful surfactant used for its antibacterial properties. They imply a large concentration is necessary to destroy microbes. Meaning, perhaps I was too quick to jump the gun that soaps like dr bronner's, kill the microherd. It probably isn't fantastic for them, but it seems that it may take a lot to eradicate the entire population.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactin
"Surfactin, true to its antibiotic nature, has a very significant antibacterial property, as it is capable of penetrating the cell membranes of all types of bacteria. There are two main types of bacteria and they are Gram-negative and Gram-positive. The two bacteria types differ in the composition of their membrane. The Gram-negative bacteria have an outer lipopolysaccharide membrane and a thin peptidoglycan layer followed by a phospholipids bilayer, whereas the Gram-positive bacteria lack the outer membrane and carry a thicker peptidoglycan layer as well as a phospholipids bilayer.[13] This is an essential factor that contributes to surfactin’s detergent-like activity as it is able to create a permeable environment for the lipid bilayer and causes disruption that solubilizes the membrane.
For surfactin to carry out its antibacterial property successfully, the bacterium needs to be treated with a high concentration. In fact, surfactin needs to be in concentrations between 12–50 µg/ml in order for it to carry out minimal antibacterial effects.[14] This is also known as the minimum inhibitory concentration (MIC).
The antiviral effects of surfactin distinguish this antibiotic from others. This property is such because surfactin has been found to disintegrate enveloped viruses. Surfactin not only disintegrates the viral lipid enveloped, but also the capsid of the virus through ion channel formations. This process has been proven through test on several envelop viruses such as HIV and HSV.[15] Also, the isoforms of the fatty acid chain containing 14 or 15 carbon atoms exhibited an improvement in inactivation of the viral envelops. Unfortunately, surfactin only affected cell-free viruses and those that had penetrated the cell were unaffected. Concurrently, if surfactin were exposed to a high medium of protein or lipid concentrations, its antiviral activity would be limited. This is also known as the buffer effect and is a significant drawback in surfactin’s antiviral activity."

 

[mrbong73]

Unless the soap has anti-bacterial or anti-microbial properties it should be fine to use as a foliar. The organic soaps would be best.
The use of endo mycorrhizae fungi products in a foliar spray is pretty much pissing money down the drain. It most definately needs roots to be beneficial.

Other types of bacteria and fungi can be useful as a foliar to compete with the bad forms (ie PM) hence the reason ACT is used as a foliar.

 

[phenotyper]

MrBong, we are talking about soil drenching, not foliar.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Unless the soap has anti-bacterial or anti-microbial properties it should be fine to use as a foliar. The organic soaps would be best.

That's my thinking. In fact, I've yet to meet a serious grower- mj or otherwise, who hasn't used a couple of drops of straight-up (w/o bacteria/microbial killers) liquid soap to a solution as a wetting agent/surfacant/spreader at some point in their career and that's enough research to validate it's efficacy for me. ie a non-issue.

I have a recipe for a pepper-oil insecticidal spray that comes from an Asian source and calls for laundry soap shavings. My presumption is that soap bars are more popular in Korea than liquid and that the recipe assumes that the soap is devoid of anti-bacterials and/or fragrances.

As I mentioned, I use yucca and aloe but tonight I'll be adding a couple of drops of plain, old Ivory Soap liquid dishwashing soap from a bottle I picked up at the Dollar Store. Dem 'crobes and mycos gonna be gettin' a nice, warm, cleansing bath tonight. :party0036: :pimp:

 

[ShutUpDonny]

LOL. Sounds good to me! I'm off to find some yucca.

 

[TheIronLung317]

Isn't Oregonism a root-supporting myco/fungal innoculant? Never would have thought it was beneficial to leaves... Learn something every day!

I'll try to get some actual science on castile soap v. microherd. I can't find anything specific online, which is somewhat disturbing given that so many people support the idea of small amounts of soap being "safe." I hope it's true, as it would make my life a lot easier, but I'd like to see something to back it up before i employ it.

The mykos aspect of the oregonisms doesn't help the leaves or leaf canopy. But oregonisms also has beneficial bacteria like baccillus pumillus and baccillus subtillus which can help fifght pm and disease. You don't have to use much so your not wasting so much mykos.

me too. i even went to put some in water once and it was pretty tough to dissolve. would like to learn more....

Yeah this stuff doesn't like to mix easily with water. I just use cups or water to mix it into my feed regiment.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Hey, are those mini-banana lookin' things the aloe's flowers?! I''ve never seen that in my life. Super cool! Looks vaguely like banana yucca, oddly enough : D

People commonly refer to "those mini-banana lookin' things" as flowers. Don't let all of those crazy hay seed gardeners confuse you though. Use "bracts" and you'll impress your friends. You could even pretend that you have a Botany degree if you're slick enuff. haha. just goofin' on ya.

Wow! Those are beautiful! I feel like someone's been holding out on me for my whole life, never having seen those before. Thank you for correcting my ignorance, and for sharing the link. Can't wait to wade into all that great info!

Thanks, yet once again for the props. I don't call you my bestest new friend for nothin'. Hows the wading going? Clear up any of that ignorance for you, yet? You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. You're too smart of a guy to be using all of that self-deprecating crap that you seem to be fond of.

LOL. Sounds good to me! I'm off to find some yucca.

Good 4 u! Let us know how u like it. Always glad 2 b of service!

I'll try to get some actual science on castile soap v. microherd. I can't find anything specific online, which is somewhat disturbing given that so many people support the idea of small amounts of soap being "safe." I hope it's true, as it would make my life a lot easier, but I'd like to see something to back it up before i employ it.

I ran a search myself and the only negatives I found concerning it's use came from quacks, wannabee scientist types (big words, pedantic, no degree and very defensive about it- downright contentious if u ask me!), and newbs who seemed like they were acting like they knew more than what they actually did. You know the type.
So, how's your research going. It's been a couple of days now. Can't wait to hear!!

Glad you made it on board ShutUpDonny. Where have you been hiding all of this time? You're truly a splendid asset to the community despite your short track record.

I used ivory dish soap for almost 10 years as a wetting agent in soil with no issues

I gave up using dirt indoors about that long ago as well

Ivory used to be 99.9% pure soap - not sure if it still is

most other dish soaps have chemicals that break down grease or antibacterial

wouldnt use any of that as a wetting agent

That's been my experience, as well. The pure/straight-up Ivory is still easily available. Just hidden somewhere in there behind the popular bottles.

PS I used a few drops of Ivory (pure/straight-up, no anti-bacterial/anti-microbial/scentless) dishwashing liquid soap as a surfactant <-"link" last night and have got my fingers crossed. Hope my ladies didn't die on me. I can't wait to get back to the garden to see the results. I'll report the findings of my "side by side" tests in a couple of days. Don't have anything more important or timely to do, ATM.

Haha. Just goofin' on ya Donny.

 

[ShutUpDonny]

Well, jaG, while you stand around mocking me and pouring soap on your plants, I have been WORKING ( ;D ). By which I mean asking other people to work for me! I have an old friend who is a biochemist and a dabbler in the green arts, and he had a few observations. Observations, mind you, and not actual opinions based on any research that he's done.
- In his line of work he often uses detergents to "disrupt cell walls for lysis." Lysis is deconstruction of cells. In other words detergents destroy cells.
- He reminded me that detergents are similar to soap, but are not exactly the same. Detergents usually contain antibacterial agents, and are usually pH neutral. Soaps made of vegetable oils (Dr Bronners, Castile soap) on the other hand are usually alkaline, which is how they kill bacteria.
- That said, he figures that there is not much in soap that is good for bacteria, so the best case scenario is that you are not helping them.

This leaves us with- Use it! Use it in the smallest amount possible, pH it when you use it, use it infrequently, and use it in the knowledge that it probably isn't helping your microherd. But yeah, use it. Just don't use detergents. And if you need soap to get water into your soil, then get new soil.

---

As for where I've been? Well, to be perfectly honest and maybe somewhat shocking, I don't smoke pot. I used to back in college, but the older I've gotten the more paranoid and unpleasant it's made me feel. I recently met my girlfriend who does enjoy her smoke, and who has a long term stomach virus (a result of antibiotics she was given for Acute Mountain Sickness in the Himalaya) which makes her nauseous or even sick on a regular basis. So when I saw her spending many hundreds of dollars each month on her meds I said fuck it - I betcha I can do that for you myself. I took some seeds she found in one of her bags of Sour Diesel and came straight to this website. So here I am! Thanks for welcoming me in!

As for the self deprecation, it's done. I just wanted to make clear to the people who do in fact know stuff that I'm not here trying to doubt anyone, but rather I'm asking questions because I want to know the answers. But yeah, it got tired, so away it went to make room for more questions. Don't say I didn't warn ya!

 

[GanjaGardener]

Gosh Donny. You sure know a lot for a newb, 3x3 CFL w/o ventilation and all. And here I was thinking that I'd be in the position to help you out. Silly, naive, old hippie me. I can now clearly see that it is you who will be teaching me. Go for it. It's all yours. Have you met ITB online at this site yet? As I said earlier, you two should hook up. You are a lot alike. Thanks for all of your help on my "Whole Earth in a Container" thread. That idea of mine sure came to a screeching halt. HumboldtDr- sorry about the excessive Malibu compost references I made. Thank you for letting me know that I went overboard in such a polite way. You see, I used to live in Topanga Canyon and know the owners. They make such good compost that I get over excited when I think about it. As you know, I used it by the truckload when I terraced and bioscaped my old Topanga property about 15 years ago. I'd show you some pictures but I'm not staying around. I've been poisoned. Just listen to me speak. Oh... and I got both of your notes and want to assure you that you had nothing to do w/ my decision to jump ship and bale. Your just a mild mannered, curious newb who runs a (compost?) tea store somewhere up in Humboldt who likes to add his follow-up 2 cents worth.

But don't take any of the innuendo seriously folks. I'm delusional and just stopped by to clear out my locker. (As always), I digress from the topic, particularly when I get so much quality guidance to do so. I'm sure that the surprisingly brilliant ShutUPDonny, (wow!) and his scientist friends will get things back on track for you.

Happy trails.

GG

 

[GanjaGardener]

Some good info I pulled off the net- maybe from a post at the Farm.Am backtracking to find the source and haven't tracked down the author yet. Gotta start saving the links along w/ txt that I copy-paste.

Quote:

"Another good reason to apply natural plant materials containing saponins is the relationship with mycorrhizal fungi.

Aloe vera extracts also contain a number of amino acids: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine, Tryptophan, Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, And Aspartic Acid.

Kelp/seaweed contain a similar amino acid profile: Arginine, Alanine, Aspartic acid, Coleucine, Cysline, Glutamic acid, Glycine, Histidine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Proline, Serine, Threonine, Tryptophan, Tyrosine and Valine.

As you can see it's probably not necessary to buy bottled products promoting Amino Acids.

Plants with high levels of saponins include Yucca root powder and/or Yucca extract liquid from the leaves, alfalfa and aloe vera. When using an agent for it's saponin content when applying a neem seed product to your garden, if you shake the sprayer as vigorously as possible, you will activate the foaming action of the saponins which will result in the agent sticking to the leaves and branches as long as possible, i.e. a surfactant."

Anyone claim responsibility?

 

[GanjaGardener]

Aloe

Yucca Example

​

Will be processing this eve.

 

[mal]

Very Cool

How long does the extract stay good for after it is made? I've got an aloe I've been growing for years and need another use for it, take care


mal

 

[GanjaGardener]

How long does the extract stay good for after it is made? I've got an aloe I've been growing for years and need another use for it, take care


mal

Hi mal. To be honest, I don't know how long it will store. I harvest it, use it and look at the living plant as the storage system. I'll take a couple of pics while I'm processing the plants for use tonight. Not much to see, but maybe some visualization will add perspective to the technique I described above... plus I like taking snapshots.

 

[mal]

Thanks

Really appreciate the quick response, it looks like you are going to make quite a bit thats why I was asking about shelf life for the stuff. At that rate my 3'x3' aloe vera would be a pib squeak in no time. Thanks again, take care and I hope everything is great with you and yours


mal

 

[Toker Ace]

Here is a link for dr bronners.http://www.drbronner.com/faqs_main.html#faq10we use this stuff when we go camping. It's safe to brush your teeth with it. I know it won't cut grease/oil worth a darn so it's missing something that is in dawn. Anionic surfactants maybe? Pure soap is KOH and glycerine so theoretically It would add a little potassium but probably negligible. If bronners is made like this and just not cooked down into solid soap it should be good to go and not hurt the herd. Still it sounds like aloe wins. Then again I found this:
Pure Aloe Vera gel is best if it is obtained directly from the plant. You will find the highest quality aloe in the inner layer of the leaves on aloe plants. Aloe Vera is a great natural treatment solution for small cuts, mild burns, and can also help with skin irritations. Aloe Vera gel is a mix of antibiotic, astringent, and coagulating agents, all of which combine to make one of the most powerful natural healing agents known to man. However, Aloe is not only used as a remedy. It is processed in many different ways, as it can be used for food, medicine, beverages, and cosmetics. But Aloe is most powerful in its pure form. The purest form you can obtain is the original gel, but Aloe is also available in powdered or liquid forms.
So maybe aloe isn't so good.
Fascinating thread
thanks to all who contributed.
I'm selling the rest of my sm-20 to someone.

 

[GanjaGardener]

Making Aloe Goo ~=Visual Guide=~

Snip!

Squish!

Foam
Typical of Aloe Strange Brews

It feels what it looks like.

Healthy for hands and complexion

 

[OneStonedPony]

This is a really cool thread. I now feel more Aloe educated. Thanks.