Running Undercurrent In Series Instead Of Parallel?

[Jack og]

So, like a Dutch system but under pressure, forward and Reverse.
I’m not familiar so trying to understand the concept.
I do o know process piping, ,
Head pressure; all pumps have a linear curve that tells ya , how much( volume) and distance said volume can be maintained.
Proper pipe sizing to pump would be key.
Then we get into outlet flow; diffused flow, meaning how much per port are you sending, question does it have a sized port that allows persay limited set volume?
If so then provided one has the correct head and sized pump the flow in theory would be linear to said distance.
Now to get back to my understanding.
This system supplies up top, water percolated down, hits the discharge point and it’s returned to the reservoir under pressure, (pulled)?
Then the question would be how does one calibrate each pot and plants intake? Are they linear to use and flow? Does one adjust flow back via increasing flow in? If so, does this effect/ affect plant growth?
Once it’s back to reservoir, what compensates it’s loss via plant intake?
Because I been thinking about a similar system. Hybred system to ebb and flow setup in daisy chain with flow restrictions to even out flow to the end using single 1/25hp recirc pump, ( head on this would be 60’) so it can run 60 pots set 30x30.

 

[heisen]

So, like a Dutch system but under pressure, forward and Reverse.
I’m not familiar so trying to understand the concept.
I do o know process piping, ,
Head pressure; all pumps have a linear curve that tells ya , how much( volume) and distance said volume can be maintained.
Proper pipe sizing to pump would be key.
Then we get into outlet flow; diffused flow, meaning how much per port are you sending, question does it have a sized port that allows persay limited set volume?
If so then provided one has the correct head and sized pump the flow in theory would be linear to said distance.
Now to get back to my understanding.
This system supplies up top, water percolated down, hits the discharge point and it’s returned to the reservoir under pressure, (pulled)?
Then the question would be how does one calibrate each pot and plants intake? Are they linear to use and flow? Does one adjust flow back via increasing flow in? If so, does this effect/ affect plant growth?
Once it’s back to reservoir, what compensates it’s loss via plant intake?
Because I been thinking about a similar system. Hybred system to ebb and flow setup in daisy chain with flow restrictions to even out flow to the end using single 1/25hp recirc pump, ( head on this would be 60’) so it can run 60 pots set 30x30.

The pipes that connect the buckets are oversized,typically 2 inch to 3.the return line back to the epi bucket is usually 3/4
The ONLY thing pressurized is the line from the pump that pulls water from the buckets back to epi bucket.
All I was explaining is there is No difference in pressure from one end to the next because all the water is gravity fed to the pick up point on the pump.
The same water being pulled from the system is being put back at the same rate.
Trying to explain this to some people is next to.impoosible.if it was 2 buckets or 100 it wouldnt make a damn difference.
It's basically a divided series of holding tanks linked together with a pump to recirculate the water to the water chiller.
I cant see how the pressure at the beginning could be more or less than the end when the rate of water flow is exactly the same.

Example of the system.i built.
The hose the is laying on the single bucket is the return line.
What the OP is asking is would it be better to just have 1 line go through all the buckets instead of having the T.
Someone said he would need a bigger pump and it would beat up the roots lol.im still trying to wrap my head around all that.

 

[heisen]

Since all the buckets are linked together with oversized pipe they technically become just a single tank with gravity fed water supply to the pump line that's pumping water out and back to the epi bucket.
The pump size is only relevant for the water chiller to adequately cool the system.we pick the pump size based on total gallons and how many cycles per hour to recirculate.
You could do 500 buckets in a row with a little ass pump it would just take hrs to recirculate the total volume.

 

[Shawnery]

At this point we can agree to disagree for the sake of the OP

I dig disagreements and arguments for the sake of finding answers to questions. It's not about confrontation but about pushing one another to find answers for the problems others provide.

Awesome!

 

[heisen]

I dig disagreements and arguments for the sake of finding answers to questions. It's not about confrontation but about pushing one another to find answers for the problems others provide.

Awesome!

For once i agreed with you that your idea would work,Any real benefit is questionable and probably not,But it would work and no the roots would not be any worse off in the first or the last bucket.

 

[Shawnery]

Ohhh!

A semi-sweet send off by the one and only.

My life of understanding cannabis is finally underway!

:eyepiece:

 

[RooR5mm]

You could do 500 buckets in a row with a little ass pump it would just take hrs to recirculate the total volume.

That install would result in "NO" Flow. You wouldn't remotely get the running river effect that the undercurrent has been designed to replicate.

 

[RooR5mm]

Air stones would have to pick up where the flow left off

 

[Aqua Man]

I think the key thing to consider here is the pump placement. You only need a bigger pump to compensate for head pressure which increases with volume and length. If you place the pump at the beginning of the system and push the water then yes you need a bigger pump the longer the system. If you put the pump at the end of the system with adequate size pipe so as its not restricting flow and pull the water in most normal cases water is feeding the pump and could actually aid in increasing flow depending on position of the pump. You have next to no head pressure if the pump is at the end only pushing water a foot or 2 vertically back into the epi bucket and the pressure in could be higher than the pressure out aiding in flow and putting very little work load on the pump.

 

[Aqua Man]

I overlooked something. In a closed loop system with one pump you won't be able to create an increased in pressure on the intake side of the pump that exceeds the output pressure so the last part of my statement is false. But placing the pump at the end of the system still eliminates almost all of the head pressure

 

[Shawnery]

I love listening to people talk about things they can explain in detail but yet you have differing opinions by people who all believe they know the answer.

The great thing is that there is one simple answer and I don't know the math or physics behind it to explain or understand it. It's amazing what one simple little question can be responsible for.

 

[Aqua Man]

They both are correct just for different applications. With this being a hydroponic UC setup the pump is better served at the end like heisenbubble is setup. In AC you have multiple different end points so its more efficiently driven at the beginning of the system with dampers to adjust flow. Could you imagine trying to adjust flow in a multiple end point system with the pumps/fans all at the end... nightmare.

I am a high school dropout and millwright by trade so I have a little knowledge about a lot of different trades just enough to make me dangerous to myself and others.

Millwright definition: Jack of all trades and master of none.

 

[RooR5mm]

Ha ha ha, see what u started. IMO the bottom line it is everyone working together for a common goal.

 

[heisen]

Air stones would have to pick up where the flow left off

lawd

 

[heisen]

I still think you guys are missing the point.undercurrent uses OVERSIZED pipes,the buckets are just individual holding tanks,your not trying to force the water past the roots your only recirculating the water.How is this system any different than putting a pump in a big ass swimming pool at one end and pumping water to the other side,BECAUSE this is all you are doing,Your pulling water from one end of the buckets and returning to the other.
Were not talking about 100 bucket systems here were talking 12 to 24 48 at the most per system.
I cant see no need of a bigger pump because you linked the buckets together,the length and volume of water is still the same,I cant understand what is so difficult to understand how this works,

 

[Shawnery]

I don't know currents or shit but as a layman it seems that perhaps there might be increased flow at the final bucket in this setup just as it would be on the first bucket of at the front? If you have 2" pipe all the way to a 1" pump isn't this going to cause some sort of vacuum?

 

[heisen]

I don't know currents or shit but as a layman it seems that perhaps there might be increased flow at the final bucket in this setup just as it would be on the first bucket of at the front? If you have 2" pipe all the way to a 1" pump isn't this going to cause some sort of vacuum?

Only if you was forcing water from 2 inches to 1 inches,BUT nd the magic word here is GRAVITY,the water is being sucked out of the last bucket(Your tank) and being returned to the front of the system,There is nothing more to it.

 

[Aqua Man]

There are a lot of factors at play, water volume, velocity, turbulence, gravity, pump placement, resistance, how many corners etc. all of witch influence flow. I'm gonna bow out of breaking these all down for my own sanity. Its far to much calculating for little to no gain of knowledge for anyone.

 

[heisen]

There are a lot of factors at play, water volume, velocity, turbulence, gravity, pump placement, resistance, how many corners etc. all of witch influence flow. I'm gonna bow out of breaking these all down for my own sanity. Its far to much calculating for little to no gain of knowledge for anyone.

But to say taking 2 rows of 12 buckets and turning them into 1 continuous row of 12 would be a drastic change is truly retarded.I personally dont see how this can make any noticible difference in water velocity,Using the same size return pump,If 20 fish tanks are all connected together and there is a pump in the last tank pumping water back to the first tank where does all this velocity and BS come from?
If there was a 1 inch pipe connecting them all than the return tank would overfill depending on the size of the pump but what i am saying is undercurrent uses BIG pipes to connect everything so there are no restrictions to increase or decrease head pressure.

straight from UC

What is the Under Current® System?
The Under Current® Recirculating Deep Water Culture (RDWC) System features the patented Sub-Current Culture® circulation method. This high-performance water culture system is unmatched in efficiency, layout versatility and ease of use. The Under Current® utilizes negative water pressure to recirculate oxygenated nutrient solution through the plant’s root zone ensuring pH and EC levels are uniform throughout the entire system.

The Under Current® is the cornerstone of the CCH2O Proven Production Approach when used with Cultured Solutions® Nutrients and the CCH2O Nutrient Dosing System.

 

[Aqua Man]

But to say taking 2 rows of 12 buckets and turning them into 1 continuous row of 12 would be a drastic change is truly retarded.I personally dont see how this can make any noticible difference in water velocity,Using the same size return pump,If 20 fish tanks are all connected together and there is a pump in the last tank pumping water back to the first tank where does all this velocity and BS come from?
If there was a 1 inch pipe connecting them all than the return tank would overfill depending on the size of the pump but what i am saying is undercurrent uses BIG pipes to connect everything so there are no restrictions to increase or decrease head pressure.

straight from UC

What is the Under Current® System?
The Under Current® Recirculating Deep Water Culture (RDWC) System features the patented Sub-Current Culture® circulation method. This high-performance water culture system is unmatched in efficiency, layout versatility and ease of use. The Under Current® utilizes negative water pressure to recirculate oxygenated nutrient solution through the plant’s root zone ensuring pH and EC levels are uniform throughout the entire system.

The Under Current® is the cornerstone of the CCH2O Proven Production Approach when used with Cultured Solutions® Nutrients and the CCH2O Nutrient Dosing System.

Every factor affects it... the impact can be large or small and that's why i don't want to bother getting into it. These systems are designed for what their purpose is and any changes are going to be so insignificant its not worth talking about. Take your pump and move it to push the water through instead of pull the water through. Then tell me you don't see a difference. Gravity for instance if you use 2" piping into your chiller and that water chiller is on a table 2' in height that 2"x2' of water... approx 1.2 litres. If its half inch piping it 0.5"x2' of water approx 77ml. Water is approx 8.33 lbs/gal. So in the 2" pipe you have about 2.65 pounds of added head pressure and in the half in pipe you have 0.17lb of added head pressure. This is not taking into account added head pressure from change of direction such as 90 degree corners etc.

So you can call it BS but its real... no matter how insignificant the difference. Thats why i stated in my previous post they key to this is the pump placement. the rest is almost negligible and not worth time or effort explaining or wasting my, yours or others time even looking at.

I did not say anything of the sort about taking 2 rows of buckets and changing them to one row would have a big affect... and I agree with you the affect would be next to nothing