Sealed room problems: phantom deficiencies, leaf necrosis; offgassing/outgassing

[Resinable]

Cap: Do you know or can you hazard a guess about what they are made from? I've been reading garden hoses can be made from pvc, vinyl, and or rubber. Some are combos and some are just rubber or epdm; others are vinyl/ flexible pvc only. Mine seems like it is at least partly vinyl; it is definitely not rubber.

 

[cemchris]

I also have a garden hose in my room for my A/C drain line (goodyear one I think). Have never had that problem. Think it could be a bug problem? Put some medium and a leaf under a scope yet? Also you can send some medium and leaf material to be tested if you are still bangin your head against the wall. Best of luck to ya man. I know it can be frustrating.

 

[max_well]

sorry to hear about your troubles.. I know how frustrating phantom issues can be. Are you 100% sure you don't have root aphids? In my experience with them, plants can look pretty normal until they are put in a higher stress environment, ie. elevated CO2 and light intensity, at which point they go down hill quickly. I had similar issues , and racked my brain for weeks trying to determine off gassing sources. I was expecting the root zone regularly, but RA can be really easy to miss, and from what I saw it didn't take a huge population to result in quick degradation. Triple check and be patient to scope them if you haven't already
Good luck bro

 

[Resinable]

Thanks, cemchris and maxwell for the kind words.

As far as root aphids or other bugs, i've spent hours examining the roots and leaves for bugs. The only ones I could find were tiny soil mites; at first I thought they were the so called "micro" aphids but I had an entomologist look at them and she said they were harmless, even perhaps beneficial soil mites. Said they were a sign of healthy soil. I was using a large amount of beneficial bacteria and fungi, both mixed into the medium and applied via ACT teas. Then I began to suspect my water source so I changed course and went to RO water plus Dutch Master zone to no avail. So I think I've ruled out my water as the problem (it didn't make sense also for other reasons).

My roots look much healthier than the foliage btw.

Today I replaced my garden hoses, which I confirmed were vinyl, with 100% rubber hose. I know goodyear makes rubber hose, maybe that is what you have chemchris? Anyway I have a few scraps of other tubing of various sizes which I suspect is vinyl. I will also replace those tomorrow. Still at loss really and not convinced it is the vinyl hoses and tubing but figure it is worth a try. I appreciate all the thoughtful comments, keep them coming please. I know someone out there must have had this problem; there must be a solution.

 

[TrichromeFan]

I know that it is a different direction, but is it possible that it is nute related? Have you run this exact nute regimen before in coco before? I know that coco in general likes extra CaMg, and has some deficiency issues unless it is pre-charged. What is the wattage of the lights in the room that these plants were in before? Possible that the higher wattage of your flower room is making your plants want more nutes. Just some more ideas.

-TF

 

[Papa]

hey bro, you must have the complete list of stuff to check. i'll never forget the agony you went through, just like Resinable is now.

 

[stickyicky]

Give RO more time

Capulator: Trying to keep a positive attitude but this shit is driving me insane.

Cemchris: I've had the Co2 off for about a week now but these plants are so far gone it probably doesn't matter. Initially I had the Co2 set for about 600 ppm but if even one person is in the room for any length of time it shoots way up and stays up since the plants are not photosynthesizing and thus are not absorbing any CO2. Hard to believe that this could cause the dramatic damage that these plant have suffered though.

Come to think of it, I brought ten healthy "test" plants in about a week ago at which point I switched to an RO water source and turned off the humidifier and CO2. No visible difference in the old plants; the new ones are paling, rusting, and yellowing from the outside in.

I did not realize you were not using ro water. It sounds like you have been using for only 1-week. May need more time to recover. I feel for you.

Good Luck!!

 

[Resinable]

TrichomeFan: I've run the same nuts with great results in coco/perlite before. I am using aquaflakes from H&G with some magical as my base. I was also careful to acclimate the plants gradually to the light, in fact I never really lowered the lights because the plants never got healthy. But when I brought the cuttings in they were healthy and reared under floros.

Stickyicky: I don't believe the issue is the water. I switched to RO water and then brought ten new healthy cuttings to the area as an experiment; these cuttings have been watered with only RO water (and nuts) and 10 days later are exhibiting the same symptoms. The other cuttings that were already in there have not improved with RO water. Additionally there is a vegetable and flower garden nearby using the same water and the plants are fine. The water comes in at about 100 ppms and 7.0 ph. unfiltered.

 

[TrichromeFan]

Just curious, do you have a dehumidifier in that room?

-TF

 

[Resinable]

Just curious, do you have a dehumidifier in that room?

-TF

Yes, I have a Santa Fe Classic. Normally I run it only during the night cycle; I find in a sealed room keeping the humidity up instead of down to be more of an issue. (the mini splits suck a lot of moisture from the air). In the current situation I have not yet needed to run it on dehumidify mode although it is recirculating the room air (just the blower is on). BTW it also has a brand new HEPA filter.

 

[max_well]

Thanks, cemchris and maxwell for the kind words.

As far as root aphids or other bugs, i've spent hours examining the roots and leaves for bugs. The only ones I could find were tiny soil mites; at first I thought they were the so called "micro" aphids but I had an entomologist look at them and she said they were harmless, even perhaps beneficial soil mites. Said they were a sign of healthy soil. I was using a large amount of beneficial bacteria and fungi, both mixed into the medium and applied via ACT teas.

Hey bro, this sounds a little suspicious to me.. applied beneficial bacteria and fungi should not have anything to do with beneficial mites.. Are you referring to hypoaspis miles? ( http://www.petsnails.co.uk/documents/hypoaspis-miles.html ). In my experience root aphids can look pretty similar. Clean coco /perlite should not have any sort of insect life from the bag.. I know it's likely difficult , but could you get a photo of the critters in your root zone? a good USB 60x scope can be had pretty cheap I think

 

[Resinable]

You've got me thinking Maxwell.

There are were at least three different types of "soil mites" in the samples I brought to the entomologist. We examined them together in a lab under a microscope. None of the "soil mites" had the "dual carbs"--the two small pin like protrusions that aphids have sticking out their rears. I asked the entomologist multiple times if she was absolutely confident in her identification, she said she was. She said the smaller ones feed on "detritus" and humic material, while the larger faster ones are predators. These mites were very small and difficult but not impossible to make out with the naked eye and I did not observe them on the roots. The root aphids I've had are clearly visible to the naked eye, have "dual carbs" and cling to the roots in clusters. I believe, the mites also have eight legs while aphids have six.

The soil mite population has greatly diminished since I stopped using the teas and went the sterile route with zone. The larger ones do look like the pics in the link of hypoaspis miles. The smaller ones look similar but the have a whitish color.

 

[treebark1950]

Won't zone kill off all the beneficials? Just something I was thinking.

 

[Resinable]

Yes, Zone kills beneficials; its chloramine plus some sort of copper fungicide I believe. I decided to go the sterile route when I began to suspect my water supply might be contaminated with harmful bacteria/fungi. Prior to that I was using tons of beneficials and ACT teas. Anyway, going sterile did not seem to make a difference, I have healthy roots growing for the most part but the rest of the plant looks terrible.

 

[Bluenote]

Sounds/looks like incomplete burn of the propane on the CO2 generator , easy way to tell is through a carbon monoxide alarm in there and start the CO2 and see if there's enough to set off the alarm.

And it *could* well be a combination of off-gassing and carbon monoxide buildup , simple air exchange may solve the problem.

 

[Resinable]

Bluenote: That is an interesting point about the burner; seems like you would be able to smell the propane if it were an incomplete burn? I can't smell any propane. Also I've had the burner off for about a week and my fresh "test plants" have continued to deteriorate. But it does seem as though I may have to install air intake and outake and hope that works. I just wish I could pinpoint the problem.

 

[Resinable]

Well I took bluenote's advice and tested for carbon monoxide. I let the burner run for as long as the sentinel controller would allow (up to 2000 ppm) with a carbon monoxide detector in the room. It did not set the alarm off so it seems like that is not the issue. Good suggestion though. One more possibility eliminated.

 

[TrichromeFan]

How about some plants from a different mom. Maybe in a different media all together, just to rule out variables besides the room? Have you run that same dehuey on previous grows? I know that Santa fe is the goods, but I heard of one sealed room that had weird problems, and it came down to the dehuey being the issue. Just some more shots in the dark.

-TF

 

[Resinable]

TrichomeFan: I currently have eight different strains from six different sources and they all seem to be responding in the same fashion with slight variations. I was using Roots Organics hydro mix but I repotted into Botanicare aeration mix with no observable difference. As for the dehumidifier, I had previously used it in another sealed room just prior to building this one; it seemed to work very well in that room. In fact, the whole room worked great.

Do you know the exact nature of the problem with the dehuey that your friends had? I'm wondering what it could be since dehumidifiers work on the same principals and basic components as air conditioners. Leaking refrigerant maybe?

Btw, I noticed in your room you have a lot of reflectix insulation; is your room sealed? I know a lot of people use reflectix in their grow rooms and its seems unlikely that it could be the problem, but since my whole room is encased in the stuff I wonder?

 

[grower420]

I was reading this thread as I too was having the same problem with my first grow in a new sealed room. This is the first time I have tried a sealed room with organic fertilizers and bennies. I started my seeds before I was finished with the veg and floor rooms. I am growing in soil and I am trying to use the Earth Juice products as described in "Finding My Nutes". The room in which I started my plants from seeds will be my drying room so it is relatively small 4’ x6’ x 9’ tall with a 400 watt MH light. I had no ventilation or heating, so I hung clear plastic over the door opening as it was cold outside and I wanted to keep the temp up to growing temps.
It has taken me longer then I planned to get the veg and flower rooms setup and the plants grew in 1 gallon containers for almost 2 months in the drying room. I went into the room everyday sometime more often to monitor the plants. The plants started showing the same signs of yellowing of the leaves as you described.
When I got the flower room (9’ x 20’ x 9’) setup to the point I could move the plants, I transplanted them into 5 gallon pots and put the under a 1000 watt MH light. The air conditioning and the CO2 was not setup and I did not have the door on the room. The plants did not recover. They would grow new fan leaves that would turn yellow very soon after starting to grow. I was venting the room through the door.
I thought the problem was magnesium deficiency and so I tried spraying with a mild solution of Epson salts which did not help. I then decided that it might be a nitrogen deficiency as the nitrogen in the earth juice products is low. As I was desperate at this point I added an inorganic fertilizer that was 20-20-20. I also got my co2 bottle and regulator setup at about the same time. The plants perked up within a week, but since I changed 2 variables together by adding the CO2 and inorganic fertilizer I am not sure which one had the positive effect.
I do not have much plastic or vinyl in the room other then pots, and water buckets.
I have been in flower state with HPS lighting (a 1000 watt and a 600 watt) on 12/12 for the last 2 weeks. The room is sealed with CO2 injected every 2 hours. I monitor and ajust the temp and humitity manually and sometmes leave the room open to reduce temps.
The plants are doing much better. The white widows, blueberry, purple kush, northern light and sweet god are looking good with nice starts to the buds. The jack herers are not as far along but they have a lot longer flowering.
Not sure if this helps but since you seem to have the CO2, temps, ph and tds dialed in I have to wonder if it is a nutrient deficiency.