Should I add UVB Light?

Milson · Apr 5, 2021

Moe.Red said:
I'm starting to think I am doing this for you and me. I'm OK with that.

Is the science that hard to follow along?

haha man I am sure a ton of people are following and just not saying anything. it's cool.

Moe.Red · Apr 5, 2021

Milson said:
I am suspicious we are early enough to catch too much cbg being converted. It looks like the ratio shifts earlier. I think whatever has been normally released has been released....which would mean a big shift would signal that thcas is being produced in a higher quantity than normal by the uvr8, perhaps?

Below are some graphs charting THC and CBG during flower under three light regimens: t5s then hps, t5s then led, and led then hps.

Studying those charts, I'm not finding a strong correlation between total THC and CBD with CBG. I was not expecting that. But I'm sure it is still producing CBG at the same time it is being converted to cannabinoids, so it feels like a "density" to put it in Milsonese. Getting made and used at the same time like a bagpipe.

But it seems like something else might be consuming CBG that might seem irrelevant to us but the plant doesn't see it that way. When you do the quick math on just the items in the chart they do not add up. Something else is at play.

Milson · Apr 5, 2021

Moe.Red said:
Studying those charts, I'm not finding a strong correlation between total THC and CBD with CBG. I was not expecting that. But I'm sure it is still producing CBG at the same time it is being converted to cannabinoids, so it feels like a "density" to put it in Milsonese. Getting made and used at the same time like a bagpipe.

But it seems like something else might be consuming CBG that might seem irrelevant to us but the plant doesn't see it that way. When you do the quick math on just the items in the chart they do not add up. Something else is at play.

Agree. Could be some of it degrades by light, oxygen, etc throughout the day etc. Could definitely be other stuff.

Moe.Red · Apr 5, 2021

@Aqua Man , should I be using Potassium Silicate at this point in flower or PH Up? I have read heated debates in both corners. Haven't seen your take tho.

Edit: What do you think about nutes? To PK, or not to PK? I'm doing a 30 gal res change right now. It had dropped to 140PPM just prior.

AnimalHouse · Apr 5, 2021

sshz said:
Dennis, can you comment on this bulb?

SolarSystem UVB Replacement Bulb

UVB Replacement light made by California Lightworks. Latest generation high output UVB T5 fluorescent bulb.

californialightworks.com

I'll be using one. This is from CLW and I believe the spectral chart shows it delivers in the range ganja farmers are looking for

I'll be using mine on a mover covering a 3'x6' footprint. Haven't decided yet if I'll run it 15 on 15off for 2 hours or just leave it on for two hours during the middle of a 12 on light period. I'll also only be using it starting week 6 of flower.
From the start of flower until week 6 I'll have a CMH lamp on the mover. According to my UV meter the CMH produces some UV but nothing like a UV dedicated lamp.
What I'm doing isn';t based off any science or anything though. Just going where this road has taken me and what feels right to do trying to achieve the results I'm looking for in my gardens

Milson · Apr 5, 2021

So I think this is what Dennis is talking about when he talks about his spectrum.

Here is the spectrum for Tryptophan (bottom from this preview lol https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-0-387-46312-4_16 but you can see a lot of examples of this). Absorption is A and Emission is E (Emission is the frequency the protein releases its energy in from its being excited).

Tryptophan appears to be involved in how UVR8 senses UV-B. UV-C starts at 280nm and is more dangerous. You can see how the plant would absolutely FLIP OUT lol.

So. That makes sense.

Aqua Man · Apr 5, 2021

Moe.Red said:
@Aqua Man , should I be using Potassium Silicate at this point in flower or PH Up? I have read heated debates in both corners. Haven't seen your take tho.

Edit: What do you think about nutes? To PK, or not to PK? I'm doing a 30 gal res change right now. It had dropped to 140PPM just prior.

I would stop using silicate... ph up maybe potassium bicarb instead since you will be dropping silica. Imo no need for silica after stretch

Aqua Man · Apr 5, 2021

I'm following along just behind as been pretty busy

shaganja · Apr 5, 2021

Milson said:
haha man I am sure a ton of people are following and just not saying anything. it's cool.

Been following. Am not so much into laboratory stuff. Am more tuned in with nature. Would comment, but you guys are too smart for me. Lol would rather close mouth and appear stupid, than open it, and remove all doubt! I am testing the old-fashioned way. Smoking it, and writing down notes. And having smoker friends try it. But am totally watching your experimentation!

Indiva710 · Apr 5, 2021

Research: Wavelengths Beyond PAR in Cultivation

Discover new findings on non-PAR light wavelengths and their effect on plant physiology, performance, and overall cultivation strategies.

fluence.science

Fluence just sent me this which kinda talks about what I was saying but no data other than a few graphs which I have here..
I also asked them if I could get the actual data from the uv part...

Hey Dennis have you noticed any difference on the time of day to run the uv of even at night as I believe you told me that the uv is not bright enough to effect their photo period but I'm not positive..
There's 20 pics sorry if I clogged it up but it was all the main info from the hour long webinar and thought it can contribute and save some ppl time I mean there's some other stuff that they talked about not in slides and is still a great listen...

sshz · Apr 5, 2021

Conflicting info abounds company to company........

MIMedGrower · Apr 5, 2021

sshz said:
Conflicting info abounds company to company........

Sure. It depends on their companies agenda. Only rational advice is to not to trust info from retail specialty companies.

sshz · Apr 5, 2021

If it’s going to impact my yield, I’m going to go at a snails pace with them.........

Milson · Apr 5, 2021

Indiva710 said:
Research: Wavelengths Beyond PAR in Cultivation

Discover new findings on non-PAR light wavelengths and their effect on plant physiology, performance, and overall cultivation strategies.

fluence.science

Fluence just sent me this which kinda talks about what I was saying but no data other than a few graphs which I have here..
I also asked them if I could get the actual data from the uv part...

Hey Dennis have you noticed any difference on the time of day to run the uv of even at night as I believe you told me that the uv is not bright enough to effect their photo period but I'm not positive..
There's 20 pics sorry if I clogged it up but it was all the main info from the hour long webinar and thought it can contribute and save some ppl time I mean there's some other stuff that they talked about not in slides and is still a great listen...

Thank you for sharing!

My prob with this study is that he burnt the crap out of the plants. Idk. Even the control plants look suspect.

I wanna see what happens when a gardener listening to the plants uses science as a starting point and just tries to grow good weed with the assistance of UV-B. Otherwise there are just a lot of trials with obvious confounding factors that render them kind of .

LaVirtue · Apr 5, 2021

Moe.Red said:
The purpose of this thread is to learn once and for all if there is any merit to this UVB. There are people firmly on both sides of the argument.

I'll finish the test and we'll see. But I can't go into this with the headspace that I already know the answer. I've searched far and wide, and all I can find are marketing claims, bro-science, and papers / tests that do not replicate the conditions that most growers use. I have never seen a series of photographs that show the amount and color of trichomes changing day by day, or incremental cannabinoid testing through the UV exposure. If it exists, I'd love to see it.

This is certainly not the be all end all test, but it should show wether there is anything to UV, and if further study is warranted. Results will need to be interpreted by the individual for their desired outcome - if CBD is destroyed while THC increases - that is a result - but one I'm sure only some will find useful in their grows. At least we will know.

This is great project !!!

LaVirtue · Apr 5, 2021

LaVirtue said:
This is great project !!!

I can’t really understand most of what you are doing, but I kind of understand the big picture, and I would never be able to do any of this.

DennisBrown · Apr 6, 2021

Moe.Red said:
I think that is as good a hypothesis as I have heard. I'm gonna refrain from guessing, I don't want to get locked on to a way of thought and even subconsciously steer this test.

I'm a bit sad there is no CBD in this strain to look at right now. But I just got in a 20:1 CBD strain from Ace Seeds, I can certainly give that a try. But yes, a full complement of cannabinoids in the same plant would be ideal. I am almost to the point that I think we should be TLC testing daily to see if we can pick out the CBG being converted. I'm also interested to see when we start to develop CBN, so I may run this test past it's prime to see that result play out. At any rate, I'm taking daily samples now just in case we need to backtrack and see what happened.

Our feedback on CBD came mainly from Ed Rosenthal, who said they found no increase, but that was with a prototype bulb that was lower in UVB, running 12 hours, similar to our SG-1 lamps. Looking at a few lab results of typical 1-2% CBD plants, compared to clones without UV, we saw CBD pretty much stay the same, or bumped .5%, but that isn't enough to claim any benefit. We did find slightly higher results with people running in pulse mode; 15 on, 45 off, but it was .5 to 1%, which is statistically significant as a ratio, but really not of any consequence. Testing on 1:1 and 1:2 or 1:3 would be good. Right now, all our testing is on non-cannabis related uses, animals and waiting for some new LEDs for aging/curing finishes on wood. That's a huge part of our business as well.

Moe.Red · Apr 6, 2021

sshz said:
If it’s going to impact my yield, I’m going to go at a snails pace with them.........

I've been thinking about how to measure yield. I don't think I can do it cleanly. What is yeild exactly?

Dry weight?
Amount of resin / oz of plant material?
Cannabinoid density / oz?

I think yield means different things to different growers.

And what if you say its cannabinoid / oz, but the THC goes up and others go down, meaning net zero. Is that better yield?

I think the term yield is spurious and will be difficult to quantify. Right up there with how high this makes you. We are venturing into the zone of beauty is in the eye of the beholder and we are unlikely to achieve a specific result that works as a blanket statement.

I think.

Moe.Red · Apr 6, 2021

sshz said:
Conflicting info abounds company to company........

I agree, but so do all the variables. And it's not just the companies, its the growers who state unequivocally that this or that works with no evidence one way or another. That's why I'm trying to approach this the way that I am, eliminating variables, posting raw data, tweaking testing parameters as we learn more, and hopefully ending up with a clear result that may stand on it's own, but more likely will require further testing to fully flesh this UV question out.

I'd like to make this less about the hardware and more about the plant / results. And I am hoping this can all be repeated by other growers if the results are positive.

Moe.Red · Apr 6, 2021

Milson said:
Thank you for sharing!

My prob with this study is that he burnt the crap out of the plants. Idk. Even the control plants look suspect.

I wanna see what happens when a gardener listening to the plants uses science as a starting point and just tries to grow good weed with the assistance of UV-B. Otherwise there are just a lot of trials with obvious confounding factors that render them kind of .

I'm trying!

I can tell you even the plants under UV are showing signs of distress in the leaves, but the buds are still A1 quality. But I think that is more about the strain than the grower in this case.

Also, it seems that our original hypothesis that the UVR8 response is local to the area hit by UV seems to be holding up. I think that a dense canopy under UV will show results only in the areas directly in the path of UV, lower buds will probably not be effected. This might require a staged harvest where the tops are taken and lower buds are then allowed to further ripen now that they are getting UV. Dunno, it's still early.

Should I add UVB Light?

Should I add UVB Light?

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