Should I add UVB Light?

[Moe.Red]

We both would like to see more peer review studies. We give away a lot of gear to do small studies. And someone earlier was saying he does sell products, I don't know. And yes, he studies nutrients and the whole agriculture aspect, we don't. We specialize in pure UV research. We do with with Texas A&M and others who use our lamps studying agriculture on the whole and the effects of UV on plants. My bias would be in "my product vs their product". There is no "$x hours works better than $y hours" bias, or "indica can handle more than sativa" bias. Those have no financial bearing on either of us, those are simply data points, drawn from different data.

We do real research (at differing levels of quality) but yes TONS of information is anecdotal, but it is anecdotal based on input from hundreds or thousands of people, not dozens, so even that information has merit. With flu, the same was true for losing your sense of taste and smell. They began saying it was a symptom well before any study was published, because when the anecdotes are that numerous and all agree with each other, the conclusions tend to be valid.

So what I'm doing here is trying to move away from anecdotal evidence even if it is statistically relevant and post actual results that anyone can see and determine for themselves if UV is worth it.

Here is an opportunity for you to help yourself by helping me. Let's step away from theory here for a moment and please tell us what you expect from the upcoming cannabinoid reveal and what we could / should be doing differently, even if based on anecdotes you have stored away in your brain.

Please help to guide this test.

 

[AnimalHouse]

I've been considering adding UVB but am going down a unique path in applying it.

I'll be using a single CLW SolarSystem UVB fixture mounted to a lightrail mover about 3' above a 3'x6' canopy.
My main lights are two CLW 550s with the short sides of the lights facing north to south. They'll be in a fixed stationary position.
The UVB on the mover will travel east to west the full 6' length of the footprint and in between the two main lights. I'll time it so it's only on for 2 hours per day and since it will be moving at about 3' above the canopy taking about 1-2 minutes to make a full round trip along the 6' footprint I'm hoping to minimize any burning effect yet maximize potency effects.
A Purpl Pro potency test device will be what I use to know if this plan will work. The strain I'll use is my home bred strain. Gone thru several phenos to isolate the most potent worth breeding again. I've been growing it for about 5 years and it started at around 25% but with selective breeding I've managed to get it up to 28-29% THC 2% CBD. I wanna see if UVB applied this way will be what finally gets it over 30% ✌

 

[DennisBrown]

So what I'm doing here is trying to move away from anecdotal evidence even if it is statistically relevant and post actual results that anyone can see and determine for themselves if UV is worth it.

Here is an opportunity for you to help yourself by helping me. Let's step away from theory here for a moment and please tell us what you expect from the upcoming cannabinoid reveal and what we could / should be doing differently, even if based on anecdotes you have stored away in your brain.

Please help to guide this test.

Not sure where we are going with this. If people follow our directions exactly, they are happy with the results. Never had anyone ask for their money back because of THC, only one for PM and they refused to follow directions because they felt they understood UVB better than us. When we talk about using 2 hours a day, that is what we found out works. You can work it up higher (15-30 minutes bump every 4 days, look for curling on the sugar leaves on the tops), but there really is no advantage in pushing it to the max limit. It is all centered around triggering the UVR8 protein, putting the plant in defense mode, as it would be outdoors in a high UVB environment. Then it will react as it would outdoors. If you don't follow the directions, then you won't get the results we promise. Maybe you're smarter than me, maybe you can figure out a better way, but most of the time, it is less effective.

I do tend to avoid too much technical simply because most people don't have the ability to fully understand it, even those that have read up a good deal. We still use things like erythema index and TE (time exposure), which are designed for humans simply because human exposure to UV is something well understood, and the measurement are handy for relative comparisons. Dealing the FDA regularly, you learn these methods because that is what they use and demand. I don't see anyone in a clean lab environment using these methods or being familiar. Totally different universe.

Example: At the same wattage, 1m distance, a high end RUVA SunMaster tanning lamp has a TE of around 73 minutes compared to around 8 min for the Flower Power. Most everyone would automatically draw the wrong conclusions from this, so it isn't something we publish. Specs can be misleading. You can't take UVB and turn it into a single number and get meaningful information. WHY this is meaningless is hard to explain to someone unless they understand the relative output of the different bands of UVB, and most treat UVB like it's a single thing. They rely on cheap handheld meters, when those are useless for most meaningful experiments. Even a spectrometer reading is useless if you don't know the differences for each band. I'm 30 years in, and there is more than I don't know than what I do. You can't learn this in a year, and people often overestimate their own expertise. This is why I just ask people to follow our directions the first time, so they have success to compare to as they change the methods later.

 

[Moe.Red]

This is why I just ask people to follow our directions the first time, so they have success to compare to as they change the methods later.

I'm not sure you are understanding, I have run your bulbs as directed and it has destroyed plants. This is my second set of your bulbs.

I'm not asking for a refund. I'm not even trying to bring money into this if at all possible.

I just want to know what gives. The only thing I have done differently is the 21" distance instead of 24.

 

[Moe.Red]

I will re-run this plate with only 3 lanes so the control can be better quantified.

I have video of this entire process in the can if anyone doubts the process.

 

[DennisBrown]

I'm not sure you are understanding, I have run your bulbs as directed and it has destroyed plants. This is my second set of your bulbs.

I'm not asking for a refund. I'm not even trying to bring money into this if at all possible.

I just want to know what gives. The only thing I have done differently is the 21" distance instead of 24.

It's hard to say why without having a lot more information. I've never them kill plants at 21" at 2 hours, ever, and 21" is certainly within spec. I think you said White Widow, which is one of the strains we have tested more than anything else locally since it is what I prefer for myself. (arthritis, great strain for that). We usually run 3 to 3.5 hours at 24" and they can handle more, we just don't push them. You need to give me a call, afternoons EST are best, Tues-Fri, although I will talk with you any time if those aren't convenient. Those are just the times that I'm least busy. If we are getting excess damage, this is something I want to know about and try to figure out. Need to know if you got the fixtures from us, which fixture they are, etc. We need to figure out what is going on. Something is "different" and I want to figure out what that means. Maybe we sent F64 fixtures instead of F32, who knows, but that is what we need to find out.

As for the money, I would extend the money back if you aren't happy. I'm more concerned with figuring out how to get this working, and why are are getting results way outside the norm. As I sit here now, I am genuinely clueless, it's just unheard of. Call 800 600 8118. You can try later today as well, but I can't promise I will be around, the wife has me a little tied up, but if I can, I will answer it. Definitely can't Sunday, whole family is here all day. I forward the 800 number to my cell phone on weekends, btw.

 

[Moe.Red]

It's hard to say why without having a lot more information. I've never them kill plants at 21" at 2 hours, ever, and 21" is certainly within spec. I think you said White Widow, which is one of the strains we have tested more than anything else locally since it is what I prefer for myself. (arthritis, great strain for that). We usually run 3 to 3.5 hours at 24" and they can handle more, we just don't push them. You need to give me a call, afternoons EST are best, Tues-Fri, although I will talk with you any time if those aren't convenient. Those are just the times that I'm least busy. If we are getting excess damage, this is something I want to know about and try to figure out. Need to know if you got the fixtures from us, which fixture they are, etc. We need to figure out what is going on. Something is "different" and I want to figure out what that means. Maybe we sent F64 fixtures instead of F32, who knows, but that is what we need to find out.

As for the money, I would extend the money back if you aren't happy. I'm more concerned with figuring out how to get this working, and why are are getting results way outside the norm. As I sit here now, I am genuinely clueless, it's just unheard of. Call 800 600 8118. You can try later today as well, but I can't promise I will be around, the wife has me a little tied up, but if I can, I will answer it. Definitely can't Sunday, whole family is here all day. I forward the 800 number to my cell phone on weekends, btw.

Awesome.

I think at this point I am pretty well locked in - I'm just gonna give small bursts and read the plants daily. I'm not going to anything near 2 hours let alone 4 or more. So sure we can talk next week and I'll fill you in and perhaps work out what's the appropriate change to make my results match yours and I will retest.

Interestingly enough, we already have a positive result, I just posted.

 

[Milson]

I will re-run this plate with only 3 lanes so the control can be better quantified.

I have video of this entire process in the can if anyone doubts the process.

View attachment 1109686

View attachment 1109685

View attachment 1109684

Yeah. That's...a result. Like, assuming there isn't a big error, a pretty clear result.

Look at cbg as well.

 

[Moe.Red]

I know dude, I'm getting excited, this plant is soooo lemony and just sticky gooey.

It will be interesting to see if CBG drops as THC rises since it is the precursor. It would make sense to me the plant would grab that to consume for THC production.

 

[Milson]

I know dude, I'm getting excited, this plant is soooo lemony and just sticky gooey.

It will be interesting to see if CBG drops as THC rises since it is the precursor. It would make sense to me the plant would grab that to consume for THC production.

Right. But instead it seems to be ramping up the precursor.

What spectrum is this in? Full or hps? And under what were they vegged?

 

[Moe.Red]

Right. But instead it seems to be ramping up the precursor.

What spectrum is this in? Full or hps? And under what were they vegged?

Flower



Veg



4 of these (dimmable) in a 4x8 from seedling to flower
https://www.amazon.com/EyeHortilux-...&keywords=hps+bulb&qid=1617477165&sr=8-5&th=1
https://www.amazon.com/Spider-Farme...9Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

 

[DennisBrown]

Awesome.

I think at this point I am pretty well locked in - I'm just gonna give small bursts and read the plants daily. I'm not going to anything near 2 hours let alone 4 or more. So sure we can talk next week and I'll fill you in and perhaps work out what's the appropriate change to make my results match yours and I will retest.

Interestingly enough, we already have a positive result, I just posted.

Definitely call me though. You can also email me at [email protected] if you have any photos you want to share before the call, but now that I get the problem, I'm very curious and want to see this through. One of us will certainly learn something, and maybe both of us. I'm not familiar with the tests you are running (I have people doing tests, I personally stay on the UV and customer side and just analyze the data) but that does look interesting for "burned" plants. Just imagine once we figure this out.

 

[Moe.Red]

Right. But instead it seems to be ramping up the precursor.

I wonder if I am just too soon and it’s making CBG by sucking the life out of the leaves as a step one to making THCA

I wonder what it needs to protect the leaves and pull instead from the roots?

 

[DennisBrown]

I wonder if I am just too soon and it’s making CBG by sucking the life out of the leaves as a step one to making THCA

I wonder what it needs to protect the leaves and pull instead from the roots?

You would think that the UV would cause an increase in CBG, which is the precursor to THCa. That is the path for the plant to make THCa, which is the goal if she is trying to put on some sunscreen. My understanding is that it is an oxidase process, swapping hydrogen and oxygen around (oxidizing). One reason you don't want to harvest too soon. Note: This isn't my area of expertise, but it's just how I understand it. You can further oxidize THCa into CBN, which is actually something I'm studying as a way for hemp growers to remediate hemp that tests slightly too high. My theory is that 365nm UV can be used after it is dried to push THCa->CBNa, which isn't regulated. I haven't found a tester for that yet, although I've talked to a few. 365nm is kind of a "magic wavelength" that makes oxygen want to jump on stuff. It's what makes the melanin in your skin oxidize and turn brown after UVB exposure, for instance. 365nm is useful for lots of stuff and the center frequency for most of our UVA lamps.

 

[sshz]

California LightWorks also states sativa's are better able to handle UV-B than Indicas...........

"Different plants with unique genetics will respond differently to the intense UVB light that this fixture puts out. When growing cannabis, sativa dominant strains typically have a higher tolerance to intense UVB than strains that are indica dominant. If you notice leaves on your plants start to turn brown around the edges, increase the distance between the UVB and your plant or decrease the exposure time per day. If you don't notice any unwanted results, you may gradually move the light closer to your plants or increase exposure time at your discretion."

 

[DennisBrown]

California LightWorks also states sativa's are better able to handle UV-B than Indicas...........

"Different plants with unique genetics will respond differently to the intense UVB light that this fixture puts out. When growing cannabis, sativa dominant strains typically have a higher tolerance to intense UVB than strains that are indica dominant. If you notice leaves on your plants start to turn brown around the edges, increase the distance between the UVB and your plant or decrease the exposure time per day. If you don't notice any unwanted results, you may gradually move the light closer to your plants or increase exposure time at your discretion."

Not the best advice. The purpose of the distance isn't about power, it is about coverage. The farther you are, the larger the area you cover (but the lower the intensity via the Inverse Square Law). You generally reduce intensity only by adjusting the time. When you move the light closer, you aren't covering as much area. Granted, this might not matter so much if you have one plant it a 3x3 tent, but most users are larger than that. As for sativa or indica, my guess is they are basing it on someone elses research. Our claim that indica handles more was based on research back when we were the only company making UVB lamps for cannabis, there was no other research to base it on.

 

[MIMedGrower]

Not the best advice. The purpose of the distance isn't about power, it is about coverage. The farther you are, the larger the area you cover (but the lower the intensity via the Inverse Square Law). You generally reduce intensity only by adjusting the time. When you move the light closer, you aren't covering as much area. Granted, this might not matter so much if you have one plant it a 3x3 tent, but most users are larger than that. As for sativa or indica, my guess is they are basing it on someone elses research. Our claim that indica handles more was based on research back when we were the only company making UVB lamps for cannabis, there was no other research to base it on.

you don’t mention it but in a reflective grow tent the light is much more intense and the inverse square law does not apply as much.

many many growers report burning plants with these uv bulbs. And most are in tents from my observation. When it was more popular a few years ago there were tons of posts with puckering leaves.

how different is your bulb compared to the htg one? I will say most of the issues I see used those bulbs. I can’t remember the brand name. @Aqua Man was sent them for his grow.

 

[shaganja]

you don’t mention it but in a reflective grow tent the light is much more intense and the inverse square law does not apply as much.

many many growers report burning plants with these uv bulbs. And most are in tents from my observation. When it was more popular a few years ago there were tons of posts with puckering leaves.

how different is your bulb compared to the htg one? I will say most of the issues I see used those bulbs. I can’t remember the brand name. @Aqua Man was sent them for his grow.

I've burned mine with agromax pure uv.

 

[MIMedGrower]

I've burned mine with agromax pure uv.

thanks. That’s the brand I was thinking of.

Sorry that happened to you.

 

[Moshmen]

you don’t mention it but in a reflective grow tent the light is much more intense and the inverse square law does not apply as much.

many many growers report burning plants with these uv bulbs. And most are in tents from my observation. When it was more popular a few years ago there were tons of posts with puckering leaves.

how different is your bulb compared to the htg one? I will say most of the issues I see used those bulbs. I can’t remember the brand name. @Aqua Man was sent them for his grow.

Half the info here way over my head, but I surf and read all these treads and I sure see/ rather read about some pretty successful growers harming or even killin plants call it over exposed ? Intensity? What ever you want, but is the reward really worth the risk?