Should I Launch a Pre-Emptive Attack on Root Aphids?

[Disco Duck]

Ok, I am having problems with my new plants. I have 6 plants. 2 of them are much lighter green than the rest. I've had leaves turn brown, I've had a leave with rust spots, I've had a leave that turned really dark green in the center, and some with tips that curled up. I've tried to put some pictures below, but my camera is really bad.

The strain is Pandora's Box that I got from a well-known grower/poster on this site.

Originally all 6 plants were looking sick, but spraying them with 50/50 mix of RO water and 91% Iso alchohol made 4 of them better, two are still light green with leaf issues.

I grow in a 4x4x6'7" Secret Jardim tent in my bedroom in a small apartment. The plants are in a GH Rainforest 66 (DWC with an aeroponic mist above the waterline) in 6" pots with coco liner, in Rockwool cubes, surrounded by Hydroton. The pots are covered with a coco top and reflectors on top of that. The light is a 600w Hortilux Super HPS in a glass covered hood.

Room/tent temp is kept between 74-81, humidity 30-40% with plants this small (it goes up to 55-70 when the plants get bigger). Res temp is 65-69, PPM 610, PH 5.8 - 6.0 (it's been rising buy about 0.1 per day and I have to keep putting PH down in every other day to keep it in this range).

My last grow was destroyed by Root Aphids, and this is seeming similar again but I don't know that's what the problem is. I wondering if I should just pre-emptively use Merit 75 since I had Root Aphids my last grow and these plants seem to have all the same problems those ones did. I'm thinking the earlier I do it the more effective it will be.

Here are some pics, but with my camera I don't know how much they will help.

 

[MIway]

Did you really... i mean really... clean between rounds & let her run dry/how long?

They seem to be able to survive out several days, crawling around... to wherever... ya know?


And yeah, the problems look similar to me as well, so soak away. Have only used Imid... hows the Merit/moa?

EDIT... and can't you just look at the roots in that system?

 

[Disco Duck]

Did you really... i mean really... clean between rounds & let her run dry/how long?

They seem to be able to survive out several days, crawling around... to wherever... ya know?


And yeah, the problems look similar to me as well, so soak away. Have only used Imid... hows the Merit/moa?

EDIT... and can't you just look at the roots in that system?

It was about a month between grows. I cleaned everything with bleach water, even the inside of the tent, and then ran a strong solution of Florakleen through it after I put it together just to make sure no bleach deposits were left anywhere.

I can easily pull pots out to see roots, the clones went in exactly a week ago, so only a few roots are poking out. They are white. I am thinking it just isn't affecting new root ends yet, because I am noticing the problem so early.

I am a new grower, this is only my third grow. First went great. Second about 100 little Root Apids crawled out of the pots after about 2 weeks. I knew the plants were sick all along, just no idea what until the army of bugs came crawling out. Now these plants seem sick too, I am only guessing it might be the same bugs as last time. And that thread below this one on Root Aphids seems to describe what is going on.

What would be the best treatment in a recirculating DWC system?

P.S. I am catching this so early I don't plan on actually doing anything for a day or two, to get more advice and see what happens with the plants.

 

[MIway]

Yeah... that sounds clean to me! ;-)


I'd just stare at the roots & the bottoms of the net pots for 5~10 minutes... if you have aphids, you'll see em.

Maybe they are coming to you infected...?

 

[altitudefarmer]

I would definitely see if there are bugs on the roots before you treat with anything harsh, like Merit or Bayer tree & shrub. If you do have little gnats/bugs dying around in your room, really check the roots to see if there are bugs. If you see whitish little worms with black heads, they are fungus gnat larvae, and fairly easy to banish. If they are really tiny bugs on the roots, it's aphids, and must be dealt with accordingly. This is the time you want to treat them if you must use poison; it'll give more time for the poison to dissipate before you ingest the meds. Your numbers on temps, humidity, etc, are definitely on point. The only other thing I can think of is that your pH meter is not calibrated correctly, and your pH may not be what you think it is. Keep us posted.

 

[Seamaiden]

Did you really... i mean really... clean between rounds & let her run dry/how long?

They seem to be able to survive out several days, crawling around... to wherever... ya know?


And yeah, the problems look similar to me as well, so soak away. Have only used Imid... hows the Merit/moa?

EDIT... and can't you just look at the roots in that system?

Just an FYI, Merit 75 *is* imidacloprid, @ 75%. Bayer T&S is 1.47% by contrast.

At this point I generally prefer triazicide as a less costly, but still effective treatment. If necessary for my next grow I'll be dropping the dough ray mee on Botanigard.

 

[amstercal]

I second the Spectracide. The imid made some plants photosensitive and they got light burn at what was probably a little too high of a dose. Being that these are so small, I think they will fare better with Spectracide.

Also, the room that had them really bad hasn't had a recurrence and they did p-bomb for mites at the same time. I don't now if that's what got rid of any residual flyers--it won't help with the other stages, the ones that live in the roots--but it's possible that helped. It's just a theory, however, one you could implement along with a low dose of spectracide that might give you some peace of mind and not harm the small plants.

 

[Disco Duck]

I took the pots out where I could see them better, and the roots and bottom of the pots. I used a 15x and 30x loupe to look for any signs of bugs and found nothing. But I am changing the water anyway and they will be ready to flip to flower probably in less than another week, I only want them 28-30 inches tall in flower and the Rainforest vegs at warp speed. So I decided to pre-emptively hit them with a pestacide during this water change just to be safe.

Root Aphids are sneeky SOBs!!! No sign at all, but just like the guy at the store said "If there are bugs in there watch for them, you'll see them jumping out of the pots" and, sure enough, I saw 2 or 3 little black dots literally jump out of pots while I poured the stuff through the pots into the res. So I am really glad I decided to do this even though there was no sign of the actual bugs other than the sickness of the plants. This is 1 week and 1 day after putting the clones in, so I am catching this very early.

They didn't have Spectracide and said it wasn'y really reccomended for consumables. I am using Sierra Natural Science SNS 203, so I'll keep updating this thread to get advice and let everyone know how this stuff is working. "Natural Science" is one of Rush's best songs, that has to be a good sign:-)

I have this bug bomb I had bought last time before deciding to just chop the last round. It is Doktor Doom Total Release Fogger. I think it would also be a good idea to set this off, but it says "turn off all ignition sources" which too me says I need to somehow disconnect all electricty coming into my apartment, I am pretty sure I can't do that. There is also a pilot light in the heater I can't turn off... so I can't use this stuff, right, I might create a big fireball in my apartment if I try?

 

[Disco Duck]

Oh, Sierra SNS 203 active ingredients list...

Clove Oil 1.5%
Rosemary Oil .53%
Other ingredients 97.97%
Water
Polyglyceryl Oleate
Lauric Acid

I prepared 7 gal (min to run Rainforest sprayer) and poured about a half gallon through each pot, trying to cover the whole pot several times, then pumped the rest into the res. It is running for 2 hours with just PH'd RO water and the SNS 203. Then I also made a foliar spray and sprayed the plants with it too.

 

[MIway]

Bugs are smarter than us... they will long outlive our species... after eating us up & shitting it out. ;-)

 

[Disco Duck]

Bugs are smarter than us... they will long outlive our species... after eating us up & shitting it out. ;-)

Most of us, anyway.

100,000,000 million years after people there will be only four signs of man left on Earth. Three bumps that used to be the Pyramids... and Chuck Norris.

 

[Disco Duck]

Here are some pics of the plants after being treated yesterday. Something not mentioned in the other thread, the really great thread below, about Root Aphids is that the severely stunt the growth of the plants. It's like time slows to a crawl, and the plants just barely grow at all. I don't know if it can be seen in the pictures, but if you look at the original pictures and then these, you can see the plants are MUCH bigger and bushier now. Almost all of that growth happened in the last 18 hours since the pestacide flush. The plants have exploded into growing almost instantly after refilling the res with nutes. They grew about 1/2' in last two days before the flush, and have grown about a full 1" in the last 18 hours since the flush. The effect Root Aphids have on growth rate is the most telling sign too me. You have the wide variety of symptoms described in the other thread, but the plants also basically stop growing which too me is the most obvious sign that the roots are being eaten.

Here are pics from about 18 hours after the treatment, impact of the treatment is very obvious too me. They are turning a darker green and growing 4 or 5 times faster now.

 

[Disco Duck]

Here's some pics of my setup. Anyone out there wanting to do things right in a small apartment, this is what a $2500 tent looks like:-)

Picture #1 is a very powerful KuulAire evaporative cooler (AKA swamp cooler). It is very dry in Colorado, and this is a powerful humidifier that also cools the air. It is powerful enough to cool/humidify a room 3 times the size as the room it is in. A powerful swamp cooler is the key to creating the right climate if you live in a dry area. No little humidifier is going to get you up to 50-60%, a big swamp cooler will.

Picture #2 shows the 6" fan cooling the light. It is hanging from a step ladder outside the tent. The tent can't handle the weight of everthing you need, the light fan is best put outside the tent. The 2x2's are extra support, I thought the tent frame was weak and would eventually collapse. I think I could safely hang 100lbs from the roof with this extra support, but I've only got 67lbs up there. On the right side you can see the continuous monotoring box, the Rainforest res is not easy to access and you really want this with a Rainforest. The black box on the 2x2 us speed control for the 4" exhaust fan, which I most use to turn down the fan for drying plants after harvest.

Picture #3 shows the roof of the tent, 600w light in the hood, 4" fan and Can33 filter. The Can33 filter is more expensive than the others, but weighs half of what the other filters too. If you have a tent, you might consider this expensive filter for it's low weight.

Picture #4 shows the ActiveAqua 1/10 HP chiller that I modified into the Rainforest. About 6' of tubing runs into the tent, and into the Rainforest through the lower right port in the tent. The chiller costs more than the Rainforest:-)

Picture #5 shows the output duct for the 6" fan cooling the light. The "external" fan in Pic #1 goes through the tent, through the light, and out the window. The end of the duct is just push against the screen and the window is squeezing it against the wall to hold it in place. In winter I close the window and the tent helps heat the house:-)

I spent about $3000 to have everything ready to grow, including nutes, tools, various supplies, etc. But the actual tent setup, the hardware, was about $2500 of that (at normal retail prices). This setup achieves perfect stats. Even in the hottest months temps are 77-83 even if it is 110 outside. Humidity is always at least 30%, but once the plants get decent size it is 50-70. The swamp cooler is the key in a dry climate, and it was only $150.

 

[Seamaiden]

Disco, I'm not sure what the person who said Spectracide isn't recommended for consumables meant. It's approved for use on food crops, and those qualify as consumables. In fact, that's why I prefer it over any imidacloprid product, specifically because it can be used on food crops and, depending on dosing, allows a decent harvest window.

I'm surprised you say there was no mention of how time stops with girls infected with RAs. To me that's one of the indicators to make a positive Dx. But, either way, you've learned it for yourself.

I've never used Doktor Doom. What's the active ingredient(s)? The spark/flame thing would make me think twice as well. Is there no way you can completely cordon off the area you'd be treating in such a manner as to not allow any fumes to where that pilot light is? If not, then I would look for something else.

 

[green punk]

Oh, Sierra SNS 203 active ingredients list...

Clove Oil 1.5%
Rosemary Oil .53%
Other ingredients 97.97%
Water
Polyglyceryl Oleate
Lauric Acid

I prepared 7 gal (min to run Rainforest sprayer) and poured about a half gallon through each pot, trying to cover the whole pot several times, then pumped the rest into the res. It is running for 2 hours with just PH'd RO water and the SNS 203. Then I also made a foliar spray and sprayed the plants with it too.

DD, In my initial attempts to battle these guys I used 3 gallons of the SNS 203 over the course of 2 weeks(@ $110 per gallon). It would kill some, and then they would come back. I even let the net pots soak in baby pools mixed @ 8oz of 203 per gallon. I would soak them for 36hrs. Still never killed them off.
I have found success with Evergreen though. This product killed them on my flood tables. There are still a few around but they're in my soil ladies. I will continue to run the Evergreen @ 2ml per gallon of nute solution.
If you're gonna be preemptive I think the Evergreen is the way to go. Its $100 per qt. It has worked for me.

Once again Thanks to Seamaiden. Lil Miss, Masonite.

 

[hiboy]

Duck
For your Doktor doom bomb, ingnition sources are like you said, water heater pilot light, gas stove pilot light. Your electrical in the walls is ok to leave on.
I've used gnatrol for my medium bug killer and preventer. Powder mixed with water and applied by premixing and pouring over medium or into the rez if your too lazy (like i was).
Also like to neem spray routinely.
hiboy
O yeah kewl set up for an apartment. You got lotsa fresh air coming in?

 

[Disco Duck]

Green Punk,

Thanks for the advice. I was assuming I didn't get them all just because the plants seemed to recover and was planning on using a second product. Anyone please chime in if you have any improvements/suggestions for me...

I need to switch to flowering soon, the plants are almost at the hieght where I need to switch. I really want to have the problem mostly taken care of as they are going into flower. So my plan was that in the next day or two, when I need to change the res to switch to flower, I am going to fill a 5 gal bucket with Spectracide (or should I use Evergreen that Punk mentioned). I am going to dunk each pot into the bucket and hold it in there for 60 seconds or so totally flooding all the media and root system. I have enough 203 for another treatment, so the res will have SNS 203 and I will rinse the pots and entire system with that for 3 hours. Then I will rinse with plain RO water for a couple hours to get the poisons diluted to insignificant levels and put in the flowering mix to switch to 12/12. I have also been spraying foiliar with SNS203 every day and will keep doing that for another week or so.

This is my first time fighting bugs. Is this a good plan? Should I use Spectracide or the Evergreen Punk mentioned?

"I will continue to run the Evergreen @ 2ml per gallon of nute solution."

Does this mean you can run 2ml of evergreen with the nutes at all times? If so I think this is the stuff for me, I'd like to have that in there if I can. I can't afford to fail this time.

 

[green punk]

DD,
Yes I have been running the Evergreen with nutes. I am currently flushing and hopefully the little shits are beat down enough that they can't stage a comeback during the flush. If you read the "Phantom Deficiency" thread you'll find Masonite's post(s) on the use of Evergreen. I am following his suggestions and it appears to be working.
On the Evergreen label it also says it can be used to spray on surfaces and in cracks to kill a list of pests. I think it says 1 part poison to 59 parts water for that particular application. I plan on using this to clean my space as the harvest comes in.

Good Luck.

 

[Disco Duck]

Punk,

I read the posts about Evergreen and would like to try that instead of Spectracide. Where can I get Evergreen? I am having a hard time finding it other than commercial referances. Does a major chain like Home Depot carry it?

 

[green punk]

Punk,

I read the posts about Evergreen and would like to try that instead of Spectracide. Where can I get Evergreen? I am having a hard time finding it other than commercial referances. Does a major chain like Home Depot carry it?

Peaceful Valley Farm Supply, Grass Valley CA, www.groworganic.com . I got it there. Took 3 days to get it.

God I hate those little fuckers. They make mites seem like nothing. I have found RAs crawling over 20 feet from the nearest plant. If you have fliers make sure to keep doors closed at all times. The worst was before I used the Evergreen the flying assholes were ending up in the buds of my little Urks. They already grow slow as it is, the RAs put the smack down on them.