Slow, narrow, woody growth - red/purp stems

[Ronnie88]

First let me say this is not genetic or a temp issue.

I have had this happen a few times before in soil. I've done two rounds in coco and it's happened both times.

Plants are growing extremely slow, 12" or so after 2 months from cut. Woody rigid stems with a small diameter, red/purple color to them.

I've flushed the coco multiple times. Charged with calmag. Tried upping potassium. Used citric acid as ph down to make phosphorus more available. Started with 5.8 ph. Tried 5.5 - 6.0.

I know how these are suppose to grow and look. One round I finally got to come around at week 6 veg. This other round is still limping. I thought it was a calmag issue but I've tried many ways to correct it - foliar, flushing, loading and nothing's working.

I know there's a reason for woody, red stems with slow growth. Every thread I read on the internet says its genes or temps are too cold and that it will go away, which is hogwash.

 

[Chronic Monster]

got any pics, hopefully someone can help you pinpoint your problems

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh... yeah, please share some pix along with environmental parameters and what they've been being fed. Upping K in coir isn't something I would do normally, for example. Reddened stems are typically a sign of P- or utilization issues, which may very likely be tied not to 'calmag' but specifically to calcium.

 

[Ronnie88]

I can get pics tonight

Veg - 83 F 70-80 RH
Flwr - 80 F 65-75 RH
Co2 700-750

Tap water 120 ppm. Usually half mixed with distilled water that comes from my dehumidifiers. I have two ph meters. A vortex mixer for the res.

Veg
.5 g Epsom salt
5 ml gh cal mag
5ml gh grow
5 ml micro
7 ml bloom
Caps bennies tea and foliar
Potassium silicate - 1/4 tsp per litre. Thick stuff

Flower
.5 g Epsom
5 gh cal mag
6 gh micro
9 gh bloom
1 g carbo load
Caps bennies
1/4 tsp KSi


One place came through around week 6 veg. Growth finally exploded. 10 percent perlite 90 percent coco 3 gal pots.

The other place I started them in .5 gal pots in straight coco. Limped along for a couple weeks then went to 2 gal pots 50 percent perlite 50 percent coco. Both places using the same gh coco bricks. I'm at around week 8 veg and they're not growing right.

I read about potassium being tied to red stems and water transport. Plants should be getting enough phosphorus. I should mention the plants started off with serious tacoing upwards in the beginning even though I doubled up on cal mag and Epsom after a week or so when the tacoing showed up. Used foliar sprays too.

Maybe the water at this place has high calcium? Only 100 ppm at this place though that still hasn't recovered.

At first I was convinced it was the coco bricks cause the first place I didn't flush them all that much. So the second place I flushed the shit outta them and still had the same problem. Then I thought calmag so doubled up on calmag and Epsom. Helped a bit. Limping along I tried ph fluctuations thinking maybe there was a lockout. Went down to 5.5. Tried flushing a couple times. Then to half feeds. Nothing seems to affect them. I didn't do all the changes back to back either. I gave time to see them respond to each change.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

ppm's in and out?

I'm still new to coco but I swear you can't just flush the salts from coco with plain water. What's really weird is that you're running Cap's tea also...? Whenever I have an issue this ALWAYS fixes it.

Hell, I even give it to my GF when she's mouthing off... haha

I'm willing to bet the blocks came salty and the flushing you did really through the medium out of whack.

If it was me..? Sea Green into Cap's tea, cannazyme, Cal/mag and base nutes around 300-400. I would shoot for 20-30% runoff..

 

[Ronnie88]

Yes I plan to test ppms tonight. Funny thing I tested the ppms in the recovered place in the beginning and only had 100 ppm! So I never tested the second place cause I was using the same bricks. Just gave them a good flush with my base nutes, calmag and mute pack.

How would you flush coco then? I was under the assumption it was quite easy to flush salts out then recharge with base nutes. I only used nute, foliar and root pack at the very beginning cpl weeks. Then stopped cause I didn't want to waste them on non responding plants. But I did give them a nute pack drench a week ago.

I'll get some pics and ppm ph values up tonight. Base nutes at 300-400 ppms is that including calmag?

 

[GR33NL3AF]

How large are the plants? If you ran 300ppms of base and 100-150ppms of Cal/Mag WITH the Sea Green mixed with a strong Tea, ANY plant would thrive. Then get yourself and enzyme for continued use to avoid any future salt issues. GH is salty as hell..

 

[Seamaiden]

Ok, right off the bat the first thing I see is that you're doubling your magnesium. You're giving them both MgSO4 (Epsom salt) with 'cal-mag' (the ratios/percentages of which I don't know).

Stop giving Epsom. Find a Ca-only product. I'd suggest Calplex but I hear it's been discontinued, but find a calcium-only product and start using that. Let's say you got yourself BioLink 6% Ca, the organic formulation. You'd want to give that at a basic rate of 5mls-10mls/gal (some girls really want a LOT of Ca! The White is one I've run that absolutely demands it and speckles with a quickness if it's not given in sufficient, and sufficiently available quantities), and then alternate that with feeding MgSO4, starting at the rate of 1/8-1/4tsp/gal (that's about .5-1g).

Ok, off to read some more of what you just posted.

I'd also stop giving the potassium silicate for now. Coir has a lot of available K, and K is antagonistic to many, many minerals.

I'd also start making worm casting or Cap's bennies teas. With the worm castings you can do a few handfuls of fresh (or the freshest you can find) castings to a 5gal bucket of water, let it bubble overnight, water that in. You can top-dress with the castings but be careful because they can become thick heavy and can cause crusting. They'll also provide a wee bit of Ca.

 

[Ronnie88]

They are only 12 to 15 inches after 8 weeks. I don't have sea green. Probably would have to order it.

 

[Ronnie88]

Well gh calmag has a higher ratio of cal to magnesium. So a half gram per gal of Epsom brings that into range. This is from a thread on here about using Lucas gh for coco. I just finished gh calmag and bought some technaflora calmag which is identical to botanicares.

So you think it's a calcium deficiency? They haven't shown any signs of that on the leaves but they have shown mag def with the tacoing leaves. The tacoing has since disappeared though after doubling up Epsom. Still runty though and not thriving. I'll get those pics up so you can see

 

[Seamaiden]

I have no idea, but I guarantee you that magnesium can cause real problems with other minerals when it's being given in excess, and that the ratio of Ca:Mg should be in the minimum range of 4:1, and that's for soil growing. Coir needs a higher range of Ca:Mg IME. Most bottle combo Cal-Mag products, which I detest, are in the range of 3:1 and some go as high as 4:1, but that's not only not sufficient, you're never going to get more Ca into them by giving the combination product. You'll always be tainting the Ca pool with Mg dookies.

I've never seen tacoing leaves actually indicate Mg-, I think it's an old wives tale, truly. You're getting 'The Charts.' One has an error--the listing of the Ca- is under mobile elements. Calcium is immobile, it should be listed as such. Minor, but must be noted. IMO/IME, all charts must be used together to understand what you're observing.

 

[Ronnie88]

Yeah good idea. Ill brew a tea. I have all those supplies at my other place that has recovered. Probably is the reason why it recovered quicker. I always add ewc to my tea. Leaves look like they turn to a bright green in 24 hrs after a foliar.

 

[Ronnie88]

Damn so much conflicting info on calcium and magnesium ratios. Will update tonight.

 

[Seamaiden]

Just remember that, especially with regard to coco coir cultivation, calcium is really one of your biggest limiting factors. With coir because of how it locks onto Ca, and since it's immobile once you actually figure out that you've got a deficiency, it's usually too late to really do anything but chase your tail trying to correct it. Far better to get that Ca into the coir and into the plant in sufficient and available levels from the get-go and address Mg as it comes, because it's mobile and is just so easily corrected.

 

[Ronnie88]

Hmm interesting seamaiden, thank you. I was reading the other day about using alfalfa, steeping it like a tea and mixing with a calcium product will produce a foliar similar to ca-25. Seems like the only way to correct this would be through foliar.

 

[JACKMAYOFFER]

Have you tried a full dose of cal mag and base nutes at an ec of 1.5 to 1.6 and don't water for at least 3 days see what they do alot of times in coco it's not enough food and just the opposite of what most think to start flushing when problems start..

 

[Ronnie88]

This is where I read about magnesium def causing tacoing leaves.

http://forum.grasscity.com/coco-coir/620656-askeds-coco-guide.html

Runoff was low around 300. Ph was 6.3.

Foliar them with caps root and foliar, ewc, glacial dust tea. Flushed one pot with 4 gals of 400 ppm nutes. Then 2 cups of tea and marked this plant with a stake. The others will be watered tomorrow with 400 ppm nutes. Originally my feeds are around 1000 ppm at 5.8 ph

 

[Ronnie88]

Have you tried a full dose of cal mag and base nutes at an ec of 1.5 to 1.6 and don't water for at least 3 days see what they do alot of times in coco it's not enough food and just the opposite of what most think to start flushing when problems start..

Yes I've tried hitting them hard with food. 10 ml gal of cal mag and 5g 5m 7b came to around 1200 ppm I believe.

 

[Mitygrows]

Over water

 

[Ronnie88]

Over water

Thanks for the suggestion but definitely not. 50 percent coco 50 percent perlite and was watered the day before I took that pic.