sodium and fluorescents during flowering?

[pliscan]

my plants are in their 4th week of flowering, i vegged for 6 weeks. i'm running 2 600 watt sodiums and since my plants are pretty bushy i have some t5 fluorescents mounted on the wall about half way up the plants to try to give the under side some light. Am i being counter productive by add the fluorescents?

 

[sunsimulator]

well any extra light will always help .. BUT over growing a plant and not training nor trimming it under certain wattage of lights, Can at the end of the day hurt ya yields
the main thing imho ,, is to prune the plant for main LITER branches. trim off lateral branches,, and try to stick to a few mains under smaller lights ,, with 600's u will need the lamps close to plants for what is called canopy penetration ,, BUT make sure u have the lights vented so they won;t get the plants too hot or cause hot spots in the area!

:sun2:

 

[altitudefarmer]

supplemental lighting is hardly ever a bad thing; it helps buds develop that might not mature otherwise. However, the undersides of the leaves do NOT like direct light. SS is right; the bulk of your quality bud will almost always be on the top of the plant on the main branches.

 

[pliscan]

I see buds on all the branches so I worry that I'll lessen my yeild somewhat if i start cutting them off. I dont know if i will be able to tell which ones to cut. This is my first attempt at growing. I really appreciate you guys responding to my post.

 

[sedate]

I dont know if i will be able to tell which ones to cut.

No, no.

By all means - leave the budding sites - but snip off all the fan leaves that attach themselves to the stems/branches and aren't themselves directly attached to a flower - these should be the largest fan leaves that are blocking light to the lower flowers.

Even with mounting a big t5 along the bushes, you'll still be leaving *alot* of yield on the table if you leave the plant completely unmanicured. Canopy penetration is really important if you want anything other than the tops to flower . . .

I know it seems counter productive to snip so many leaves you watched grow, but you need to do it . . . there has to be a good guide here somewhere . . . anyone?

 

[lurch]

No, no.

By all means - leave the budding sites - but snip off all the fan leaves that attach themselves to the stems/branches and aren't themselves directly attached to a flower - these should be the largest fan leaves that are blocking light to the lower flowers.

Even with mounting a big t5 along the bushes, you'll still be leaving *alot* of yield on the table if you leave the plant completely unmanicured. Canopy penetration is really important if you want anything other than the tops to flower . . .

I know it seems counter productive to snip so many leaves you watched grow, but you need to do it . . . there has to be a good guide here somewhere . . . anyone?

why would you ever want to trim fans off if theyre healthy? where do you think the plants convert light to food 4 ur "flowers"? if you want penetration lst, scrog, or supercrop.

so if you have done this what would be a percentage of fans that youve taken. im sorry i am a firm believer in not taking food from a baby. i do take fans but never in flower. IMHO you will lose yield

 

[scrapiron]

I'm with lurch. The only leaves I take off are dying/dead. Pulling healthy leaves off is a no no.

 

[sedate]

why would you ever want to trim fans off if theyre healthy?

Because they will absorb all of the light that could be destined to lower budding sites.

where do you think the plants convert light to food 4 ur "flowers"? if

For "my flowers"? Marijuana is the dried flowers of the cannabis plant - so not sure what kind of pointless quibbling this is.

And if you think a fan leaf blocking a budding site 12 inches lower on the plant will turn the light it recieves into energy for that budding site, then you have a seriously flawed understanding of plant function.

The large fan leaves left over from the end of the veg stage are doing nothing for the size of the flowers - they are keeping themselves alive and absorbing light that could be better spent producing actual smoke.

so if you have done this what would be a percentage of fans that youve taken

I mean the idea isn't to shave the thing - I've seen some folks get way to happy with the scissors around the veg-flower point - but certainly you can trim off substantial portions of overgrowth around the top levels.

i do take fans but never in flower. IMHO you will lose yield

Oh - so you do agree with me.

By the 4th week of flowering, the OP should have long since trimmed his plants.

I generally trim the last week of veg - sometimes before if there is something I want to rearrange. Eitherway, trimming fan leaves now won't hurt him, and should increase his yield a bit from the rather brief description he provides of his grow situation.

Pulling healthy leaves off is a no no.

I'm sorry, but in and of itself, this is terrible advice for anything other than the most novice of growers.

EDIT:
Here we go:

 

[lurch]

By the 4th week of flowering, the OP should have long since trimmed his plants.

I generally trim the last week of veg - sometimes before if there is something I want to rearrange. Eitherway, trimming fan leaves now won't hurt him, and should increase his yield a bit from the rather brief description he provides of his grow situation.

this should of been stated in ur 1st post to this thread.

in flower no i dont believe in cutting any healthy fans, just tuck em outta the way. have a plan laid out b4 comitting to flipping to 12/12. like you said in veg yes do pruning/training.

you dont think clipping about 1/2 way through flower will stress her out & slow down bud growth? i do.

:smiley_joint:

 

[sedate]

in flower no i dont believe in cutting any healthy fans, just tuck em outta the way. have a plan laid out b4 comitting to flipping to 12/12. like you said in veg yes do pruning/training.

I guess my biggest concern with tucking - and this is certainly a widely used technique - would be that tucking in fan leaves all about an otherwise untrimmed plant would end up rather overgrown and choked - airflow problems, that sort of thing.

Eitherway, the OP hasn't trimmed at all and is trying to add more light to penetrate what I can only imagine are rather overgrown plants.

you dont think clipping about 1/2 way through flower will stress her out & slow down bud growth? i do.

With overgrowth like that, he's probably more like 1/3 through flowering, but I digress -

No, I think selectively clipping off healthy fan leaves 1/2 way during flowering, given the way the OP describes his grow, will help this particular OP increase his yield.

You seem to be thinking that cutting of a fan leaf is like cutting off a finger - it's not, it's more like cutting hair.

 

[scrapiron]

sedate- How about clicking that link you furnished yourself, and READ the section named "HOW DO FAN LEAVES FUNCTION" Apparently you didnt read your own reference!

 

[mountaindank]

A few selections from your own reference, sedate.

if you think a fan leaf blocking a budding site 12 inches lower on the plant will turn the light it recieves into energy for that budding site, then you have a seriously flawed understanding of plant function.

The large fan leaves left over from the end of the veg stage are doing nothing for the size of the flowers - they are keeping themselves alive and absorbing light that could be better spent producing actual smoke.

Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity.
...
During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002).

You seem to be thinking that cutting of a fan leaf is like cutting off a finger - it's not, it's more like cutting hair.

Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

 

[sedate]

Apparently you didnt read your own reference!

Ha.

Didn't read my own reference eh?

Did ya'll read through the link looking for the out-of-context sentence that might make you look 'right'?

Let me clear on a few things, which is certainly supported by the content of my posts, and of THC Farmer's synopsis paper, thus far:

I'm not advocating shaving a plant of leaves down to the budding sites - I've seen this done and it certainly doesn't work well for final yield - I'm advocating selective removal of the top few layers large-post-veg fan leaves to allow the majority of the plant to breath and recieve more light that it otherwise would.

Now - let's take a look at MountainDank's own out-of-context quotes:

if you think a fan leaf blocking a budding site 12 inches lower on the plant will turn the light it recieves into energy for that budding site, then you have a seriously flawed understanding of plant function.

The large fan leaves left over from the end of the veg stage are doing nothing for the size of the flowers - they are keeping themselves alive and absorbing light that could be better spent producing actual smoke.

Which is a correct statement, but apparently requires more critical reading than MountainDank and scrapion put forth:

Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity.

Which is kinda of like saying "if you think a fan leaf blocking a budding site 12 inches lower on the plant will turn the light it recieves into energy for that budding site, then you have a seriously flawed understanding of plant function"

During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002).

Which is exactly my point - the surface area of leaves that are actually recieving light is what is important here - and that the surface area is greatly increased by removal of overgrown fan leaves at the top and mid-section of the plant.

Get that scrapion and MountainDank? It isn't just leaf surface area - it is leaf surface area actually receiving light.

Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ‘toxins’ with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

This quote refers to the generalized function of fan leaves. And I certainly never indicated that they do not serve a function - during flowering or otherwise - I'm arguing you do not need all the leaves the plant produces during the final week or weeks of the veg stage and indeed final yield will be increased.

Besides - the 'growth' part of the plant's hormonal response will be well behind it at the OP's stage of flowering, and depending on whether the plant was taken from a clone or not, will be *well* established a week or so into flowering, so the above warnings of hermaphrodism or plant-retardation aren't really applicable here.

But eitherway, like I keep indicating, I'm advocating selective removal - not clear-cutting the thing - when one enters the flower stage:

For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002). However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant's floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).

See scrapion? Not only did I read my 'own' reference, I read carefully and critically.

!

 

[scrapiron]

No, I dont see. That is too much reading for me! Peace...

 

[sunsimulator]

HEY I GOT A SOLUTION !!!!!!

This is a way for everyone that grows pot to STUDY themselves .. IF ever u need a answer for yourself , heres what ya do !

Take 2 plants of the same strain. AND apply the ?( in this case leaf removal ) .

Plant #1 remove the leaves u think u want to ,, start taking notes ,,

Plant #2 do not remove any leaves ... start taking notes,,


At the end of the grow look at pro's and con's

The point to this , is that everyones grow room is different ,, and we all feed different items ,, SO really
best way to study , IS from experiments . Apply your own ideas and thoughts .. try things on a small scale,,, noone said u have to go and cut all the leaves off all the plants to find out ,, u can spare 2 for self improved testing!! Because knowing is 1/2 the battle!!! :hi

 

[Pandaman]

Bump.

Sorry to bump an older post buuuuuuuuuut....

Has anyone done this? I'm an aspiring noob in training and would really appreciate reading/seeing a real world side-by-side test.

Just like a noob, I have humongous plants that should have started flower two weeks ago for how big they were (currently 6 weeks vegging). I still have 1-2 weeks before my Flower Tent is set up and now would be a good time to time to trim them and hopefully stunt their growth rate for flowering... If not, I'm going to probably end up tying down my 7'+ tall monsters. The 5 tallest are 3.5 feet in a 6.5 foot tent. :).

Peace

 

[LordDankinstien]

dude you should cut those plant in half almost they will grow back I swear!!!! and you have enough weeks before flower for them to get happy again. other wise you gonna end up with a shitty yeild and crazy tall plants.

 

[Pandaman]

You mean like topping 1.5 feet off the top? Just like that?

Thanks

 

[LordDankinstien]

post up some pics first so that I can point out where... its just like topping it, expect taking more off. At my buddys house he had some ROG seeds I gave hime that streched like a mofo, (to his own fault) I told him the same thing and now 2 weeks later you can bearly tell he cut that much off. They dont say it grows like weed for no reason.

 

[Pandaman]

post up some pics first so that I can point out where... its just like topping it, expect taking more off. At my buddys house he had some ROG seeds I gave hime that streched like a mofo, (to his own fault) I told him the same thing and now 2 weeks later you can bearly tell he cut that much off. They dont say it grows like weed for no reason.

Whoa! Ok... Ya, as a noob I figured, the bigger/bushier the better. I've LST'd some but apparently not enough.

Still at work right now. When I get home (Approx 9pm PST (Around 5.5 hours from this post)), I will definitely get you a good picture or 3 of what my jungle looks like.

Thanks man!... I could use all the help I can get :)