Soil Indoors Problem - Help Request

[Coronel]

Hi guys,

This is my first post but have been lurking and reading the forums for a long time now.

Recently i came across a problem that so far have been unable to identify.


All started well, 4 seeds germinated and plants grew with no problem, looked bushy and short internodal space.

Wanted to keep 1 as mother and clone it a lot, so because of space the mother ended up in its own tent (The other 3 plants were given away and even thou they are growing under a 150w HPS light in a very cold place (14C) they are doing nice for such shitty conditions).

After about 2 months of lst and topping the mother was bushy and ready and about 10 clones where well on its way.



So that is when the mother plant went to the big tent for flowering.

At the time some leaves were wilting and drying from the tip back but didn't look worrysome, it was attributed to the tent not being very tall and the heat of the lamp dropping too much the RH, no sign of bugs or other.

After about 1 week in flowering lots of yellow leaves and the "Healthy" ones felt filmsy and under the light looked very dark veins and yellowish intervein space.

Looked everywhere on the internet but the symptoms didn't match anything.

Increased the RH of the tent and this seems to have helped a little but the fading kept going on.



2 weeks into flowering and the plant was looking very bad, also the clones in the other tent (in another floor) started showing the same symptoms.

After 1.5 months of Flowering the mother had no green leave and was harvested, what was a nice potential for 12 colas became 12 small bugs and lots of popcorn nugs.



There was no flowering strecht at all, the plant was about 70cm tall in Vegetation, and at the end of flower was about 78cm, and the plant just died on me.


The clones were moved to the flowering tent once the other died, but are still under grow schedule, they show the same symptoms as the mother, but now i can see fungus gnats around the plants and many drowned in the water reservoir used to increase the RH of the tent.


I am at loss, initially I thought the fungus gnat infestation might have killed the mother plant but the gnat larvae is the one that might attack the plant so with this in mind i pulled out the roots of the mother plant and looked at them and at the soil with a microscope, nothing the rootball looks healthy and nice, lots of hair roots etc...
I don’t know what other information to post, so if i missed something or something is not clear please post and i will reply.


If you have any ideas to help they are all welcome, there are ten clones dying that i would like to save.... :D

Here is the grow data for help:

Size or Square Footage of Room =

• Grow: 80cmX80cmX180cm / 150 W CFL
• Flo: 1.2m x 1.2m x 2.2m / 1 x 600 W HPS

• Northern Lights #5 x Haze
• 70% sativa
• How Many Plants = 1 mother x 6 clones
• Is it in Vegetative or Flowering Stage= both (Mother Flowering / clones Vege)
• If in Vegetative Stage... 4 months
• If in Flowering Stage... 1.5 months
• Indoor
• Soil
• Mix = 30% vermiculite, 30% peat moss, 30% old soil (baked @ 75C for 1h)
• What Size Pot = 30L
• Air Cooled
• Temperature of Room/Cabinet = 27C day 23C night
• RH of Room/Cabinet = 42% Day, 63% Night
• PH of Medium or Reservoir = 7
• Any Pests = Small presence of fungus Gnats
• How Often are you Watering = when needed (every 2 day + or -)
• Type and Strength of Fertilizers used = BioSevia Grow and Bloom at half dose

 

[Coronel]

Cannot edit to change the order of the picts: (forum gives a msg about spam?)

The mother that died in flower

Clones:

 

[Seamaiden]

• Soil
• Mix = 30% vermiculite, 30% peat moss, 30% old soil (baked @ 75C for 1h)
• PH of Medium or Reservoir = 7

Ok, even without being certain as to whether or not the media is *really* soil, that pH is far too high. It appears you've locked out potassium. IF it's really soil, get the pH down a bit, 6.8 at the top. I don't think this is a true soil though, so I think you'll do better dropping it more, closer to 6.0. Beyond that, the plant(s) look(s) hungry to me, offhand. I'm not familiar with those fertilizers, so I can't speak directly about them.

 

[straincreation]

Ph in balance and hungry! Seas got you covered here!
GL happy farmin.

 

[MirrorZen]

Sea is right,
Looks like a soil less mix. 6 to 6.3 is what I would do with that. Phos def for sure possibly a mag def as well, mag likes lower ph.
Good luck

 

[Homesteader]

I have a hard time understanding how your mix could have a high pH (7) considering the mix recipe you gave us. Peat usually is 5.0-5.5 so your old soil would have to be 8.5+ to achieve 7.0? Maybe I am missing something. I assume vermiculite is neutral however?
How are you checking your pH?

Could be salt toxicity no?

 

[WonderDawg]

Your PH is way too high too begin with. Your "soil" medium may be a bit dense also which may be causing issues. Personally, I would flush them very well with (PH 5.8-6.3) RO water and then continue that immediately with half strength and PH-ed nutrients. Whether you're growing outside or inside, soil or hydro, Organic or synthetic, PH is everything.

 

[One drop]

Looks like N draw down they need a good feed .

 

[WonderDawg]

Looks like N draw down they need a good feed .

That's not a Nitrogen deficiency. Guaranteed. Nitrogen affects the plant from the bottom up.

 

[One drop]

That's not a Nitrogen deficiency. Guaranteed. Nitrogen affects the plant from the bottom up.

Ok I had the same thing happen in my current grow plants showed the same look as these so I upped my N intake and they bounced back fight fit in a week or so , only other thing it could be is drainage problems the soil looks dence is there and larger gravel in the bottom of the pot to help with drainage .

 

[Coronel]

Hi, thanks for your input guys!

I am posting on behalf of the grower who doesn't speaks English, so i don't have control on all the parameters and need to ask him for details every time.

I want to apologize as i had wrong information:

NOT THE SOIL HE IS USING:
I gave him that soil mix, which is the one I use for fast draining gravity drip irrigation on my fast growing ficus.

• Mix = 30% vermiculite, 30% peat moss, 30% old soil (baked @ 75C for 1h)

I usually cook my old soil, then water it a little to cool it down and mix with worm castings and add some aquarium starting bacteria.

I have been using this mix for about 4 years with excellent results for vegetation in many crops (Tomatoes, chillies, ficus, flower plants...)

The principle is that everything dies in the soil when baked (bad weed, pests, most bacteria, some viruses) so it is death and soil less.


By cooking the pH goes high as the salts and tap water p buffering remain after the water evaporates, (around 7.5), hence the addition of peat, as it is acidic it should drop and the peat improves water retention.

His soil; mix after much digging: (He confessed :D)
* He heard vermiculite and bought hydrotons (clay balls)
* Heard peat moss and got an organic garden soil bag (claiming a NPK of 15,10,10)
* Used old soil from a previous grow,

Did not cook his soil, didn't use the bacteria, didn't add the worm castings...

So his real mix has nothing to do with what i suggested.

He was also taking the pH by dissolving some top soil in distilled water for a few minutes then using a pool drops pH solution. (not the run off)

I did a run-off and even thou those drops are not good for decimal pH values, the color resulting of run offs is between 6 and 7 (some value in the middle... I'm trying to borrow a pH digital tester.

So it is soil... and unless those drops are completely off the pH might be a little high but in soil only Mn and Fe would be locked out.

Ok, even without being certain as to whether or not the media is *really* soil, that pH is far too high. It appears you've locked out potassium. IF it's really soil, get the pH down a bit, 6.8 at the top. I don't think this is a true soil though, so I think you'll do better dropping it more, closer to 6.0. Beyond that, the plant(s) look(s) hungry to me, offhand. I'm not familiar with those fertilizers, so I can't speak directly about them.

After much digging the mix he used is soil (It might be depleted or salt saturated but it is soil.
And the run-off ph as said above is within soil limits, excepting maybe Manganese (Mn) and Fe (Iron).

When the mother plant started going bad it was flushed thinking of salts, and gave a good feed for bloom, the plant didn't react well and got more yellow leaves, so the nutes were stopped after that.

Here is a link to the ferts:

Sea is right,
Looks like a soil less mix. 6 to 6.3 is what I would do with that. Phos def for sure possibly a mag def as well, mag likes lower ph.
Good luck

Element Hidro Soil
P (Phosporous) 6.1-6.8 6.5-7.0
Mg (Magnesium 5.8-8.0 6.5-8.0

But yes that pH should be lower.

I have a hard time understanding how your mix could have a high pH (7) considering the mix recipe you gave us. Peat usually is 5.0-5.5 so your old soil would have to be 8.5+ to achieve 7.0? Maybe I am missing something. I assume vermiculite is neutral however?
How are you checking your pH?

Could be salt toxicity no?

You are right, he was using a totally different soil and after discovering his mix y think it is too water retentive (he was using the watering schedule i gave him for my soil mix that since doesn't retains much water can be watered as much as you like... )

Salt maybe from his old soil
As you say vemiculite is neutral, his soil bag claims to be 6.6pH and the hydrotons are neutral too.

I think he made many of this type of mistakes, changing some "Small" thing and using the wrong technique.

I recovered 1 clone that looked dying 1 week ago, repotted in peat vermiculite and worm castings, gave a foliar of Epsom salts and now it looks great.

What have me very confused is that after his mother plant died he decided to buy a bag of garden soil and repotted all his clones with that and his look very sad....

 

[Coronel]

After getting new information i am convinced that the plant died because:

• Too retentive soil + too aggressive watering
• Too high pH
• Depleted salty old soil?
• Grower asking for advice and not following it... (grrrr)

Yet i am still surprised of those symptoms that match many things and none at the same time.

 

[CriticalWorm]

There all nute locked. I'm guessing it started with the gnats. I'd give them a feed and make sure the ph comes down closer too 6 but then I'd let them dry out some for a bit. And I'd get some DE (Diatomaceous Earth) on that soil ASAP to make sure that gnat problem is taken care off. I mix it with all my mixes. If you already feed them and got the ph down to try to fix it and it didn't work, I wouldn't just keep hitting them with food I'd flush them and let them dry out and keep working that DE into the soil. Those gnats use to haunt me. You will find DE at any animal feed store. And it wouldn't hurt to get the light off the top off your soil. Cover it with anything. (Landscaping fabric / H.E.C / black and white poly) I'm no expert but that's where I'd start.

 

[Coronel]

There all nute locked. I'm guessing it started with the gnats. I'd give them a feed and make sure the ph comes down closer too 6 but then I'd let them dry out some for a bit. And I'd get some DE (Diatomaceous Earth) on that soil ASAP to make sure that gnat problem is taken care off. I mix it with all my mixes. If you already feed them and got the ph down to try to fix it and it didn't work, I wouldn't just keep hitting them with food I'd flush them and let them dry out and keep working that DE into the soil. Those gnats use to haunt me. You will find DE at any animal feed store. And it wouldn't hurt to get the light off the top off your soil. Cover it with anything. (Landscaping fabric / H.E.C / black and white poly) I'm no expert but that's where I'd start.

He changed the soil to a commercial mix for the plant.
I told him to recover the hydroton to cover the soil as i did for him with the mother.
He tried feeding and they got worse so he decided to stop feeding.

The gnats and the replies here and another forum is what led me to think his soil was not right.
Soil too wet and the gnats appear (the hydroton helps fooling them into thinking the soil is dry.)
He reduced watering frequency and the gnat problem is receding thou it was never big.

To be honest i am a little too much angry at him, he has been pestering me for advice (i'm not a W grower i'm an organic food grower and use a mix of techniques from weed, bonsai, and my knowledge in chemistry to keep my plants healthy and happy).

I told him when i started to explain to him that it is not the same to trow a plant in soil and water from time to time than to play with the conditions to optimize them in order to achieve full potential of the plant.

He say yeah yeah... listened to whatever he wanted to listen and when he lost control and the plants started dying asked for help again not mentioning that he was using unbaked, salty depleted soil, and hydrophobe soil, that he was to high to remember last time he watered, that he replaced the vermiculite with hydroton and ther peat with nothing.

He didn't keep a feeding schedule, and has had me for the last month wasting time, asking him to do this and try that to learn he did for 2 days and got bored and tried something he saw somewhere...

At a given point he was running @ 36C / 32% RH told him to put a water container with a towel in front of the fan and to extract to a window to cool down the room were his chamber is... he did until the water evaporated then forgot or could not be brothered to replentish it... (Typical pothead)

Basically he is reading shit (in french) in the internet and doing it irregardless if it is something for soil, for hydro, for space-bubble...

Then comes crying when he kills his plants.

His friend who "inherited"the other 3 plants put them in an unheated room (4C) with a measly 150w hps for 3 plants doesn't does much to them and has smallish but very healthy plants.

I was intriged with what was happening to to his plants and wanted to find out for my own knowledge, ut the more i ask him questions the more i realize it is just the addition of all the mixed mistakes he has made, the mother plant did not die on him... he plainly killed it!

The proof is that i took one of his almost dead clones put it in the right soil (Vermi-peat-worm castings) , keep it at 22c / 48%RH under a 100w bulb, foliar sprayed epson salts and it is thriving, no new dead leaves and some grow in only 3 days.

Something that had me confused initially (apart from the fact that i trusted he was asking advice then following it) was that he staarted 2 autoflo from seed at the same time he started lst the mother (inside same tent, same soil, same nutes), his auto-flos died and i tough some weird shit might have contaminated the other plant...

I appreciate all the help and comments and believe me, i learnt a few things from this discussion!

 

[Homesteader]

Welcome @Coronel! You sound like a knowledgeable person who will fit in well here on the farm.

 

[Homesteader]

Could the water be the culprit? Any idea on the ppm?

 

[Coronel]

Could the water be the culprit? Any idea on the ppm?

No idea on the PPM, i associate PPM and conductivity to Hydro setups and never had to monitor them the way o grow.

We live in the same area and should receive the same water, mine at home is pHed @ 7 but by the build up in my kettle i would say it is hard water that is buffered to death to take it down to 7, that is the origin of all those carbonates precipitating and settling in the kettle :P

PPM should tell me the parts of something dissolved on each million parts of something else...

In the case of water i suppose we speak of the trace elements that the plants need as food (solids suspended or dissolved in water).

Something i have found is Hydro guys follow these PPM and Cond a little blindly not fully grasping their use or meaning.

For example i meet a guy who produces hydroponic tomatoes he has a huge industrial operation, cannot be brothered or afford a R.O system for the volume of water he uses so he resorted to water from his well (in clay soil)

He didn't take into consideration his PPM were within desired range just because of the minerals from his water and not because of the nutes he was adding to the soup... His plants were always sick and his system was precipitating calcium everywhere and was always clogged.

Everyone was telling him to measure the PPM of his water before making the soup and adapt and he kept replying: "I was told must be this value and that is what i put and they should thrive... "

The problem with PPM is that there is no way to know what those PPM are made off...

 

[Homesteader]

ppms could be carbonates, sodium, magnesium etc..exactly like you said.....Curious if they have a water softener.

 

[Coronel]

ppms could be carbonates, sodium, magnesium etc..exactly like you said.....Curious if they have a water softener.

The tomato guy didn't... he drilled a well, put a pump and had water hahaha....
I am all ears thou if there is something more that can be known from the PPM that i am missing.

BTW i read with interest your free CO2 from soil's life, post!

 

[Seamaiden]

Sea is right,
Looks like a soil less mix. 6 to 6.3 is what I would do with that. Phos def for sure possibly a mag def as well, mag likes lower ph.
Good luck

I was going between K and P, but went with K because it's on the margins. Also saw the -Mg, but at that point she's just hongreh. Or hangry.

I have a hard time understanding how your mix could have a high pH (7) considering the mix recipe you gave us. Peat usually is 5.0-5.5 so your old soil would have to be 8.5+ to achieve 7.0? Maybe I am missing something. I assume vermiculite is neutral however?
How are you checking your pH?

Could be salt toxicity no?

Do you mean sodic, as in Na or NaCl, or do you mean chemical salts, such as MgSO4 kinda thing? I tried working with vermiculite once, it held too much water for that application so stopped using it, I can't speak to its effect on pH or anything else other than its propensity to retain water.

Other bolded is very good question. Answered, we can work with this.

He was also taking the pH by dissolving some top soil in distilled water for a few minutes then using a pool drops pH solution. (not the run off)

This is the slurry method, and it is what I prefer. The only error to his method is that he needs to take soil samples from more areas of the substrate. It will be ok to disturb the roots a bit here. Mix the samples, then mix the slurry. If he is able to see a relatively accurate color change with the drops, then great, keep doing that. If he is unsure and cannot spend a lot of money he may do better using pH strips that he can dip into the slurry. Such as this: pH test strips U.S. Google search.
Do I understand that he uses this exact same mix on ficus and other plants with no ill results? Or is the original mix yours that *you* use to good results?

foliar sprayed epson salts and it is thriving,

There is part of the tell right there.