BeenBurned
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Hey Squiggly, my intent was NOT to call u out but the product...:rolleyes:Both are derived from natural sources (Bti is, itself, a bacteria). It's safe for YOU ken, but obviously bees aren't very big on it. You didn't ask me if bees should consume it lol.
Don't expect it to be as effective anymore. ;)what? :confused: @squiggly just told me it was safe!
Thankfully, not many honey bees are on my plants...:bored:
Might use more BT this year instead though..
Is it safer?
o_Owill you please explain?Don't expect it to be as effective anymore. ;)
I have to go with physical barriers, Ken, there's really nothing else to use.
I know you're aware of the Bt corn that came out a couple of years ago. It's now, in VERY short order, created Bt-resistant corn borers. I see absolutely no reason why other pests should *not* also become resistant at this point. So, I've dropped Bt from my OD rotation. Due to the issues with pollinators, I'm dropping Spinosad from my rotation as well. That leaves me/us physical barriers, such as noseeum netting, mosquito netting and the like.
Remember squigs, both Ken and I are a relative handful of miles from California's Central Valley, damn near the home of factory/conventional agriculture. The world expo is held down in Bakersfield... or is it Fresno? I can't remember, but every time we head down 99 we drive past the center.
I don't fully understand the mechanisms of resistance, nor do I fully understand how that might expand. Thus my extreme caution here. Plus, the Spinosad is just no good for my pollinators, of which I've got a qualified metric buttload.
How on earth would they become resistant to a physical barrier?? I'm not using a whole slew of products, I have a select handful that were chosen very carefully for specific reasons. Due to the new research showing that spinosad is indeed going to affect pollinators, I'm dropping it. Due to the resistant corn borer, I'm dropping Bt products. In fact, part of what's propelled my decision here is the fact that there is nothing approved for use on cannabis, and when combined with my stellar record (I'm bondable and insurable, pass the BG checks) I'd like to be on the forefront of organic cannabis production when, not if it gets to California.Resistance is actually pretty easy to talk about, so I will.
Basically what you're looking at is the following:
1. Chemical/process kills most of a species in an area--say 99.9% of them.
2. The only surviving members in that area are, thus, naturally resistant.
3. Competition for reproduction is, thus, reduced.
4. If the resistance can be passed genetically, either by one parent (bacteria/insects), or two (insects)--then the next generation will have some members (if not all) which are naturally resistant.
5. The resistant population is initially small, however, continued application of only this one chemical/process can cause this same process to repeat--reducing competition for reproduction among that group over and over again. Eventually you end up with a fully resistant population.
A few notes:
1. If only one parent is needed to pass the resistant mutation, resistance develops more quickly (as with bacteria).
2. If only one chemical/process is used--development of resistance is more common.
3. If application rates for the chemical are not high enough, resistance is more likely (as some in the population may be only *slightly* resistant, but this still selects for greater resistance than none)--in this case resistance can take many generations to develop.
4. This is why it is important that if you need antibiotics you FINISH THE ENTIRE PRESCRIPTION. The doses of antibiotics given is usually way overkill, and there is a reason for that (see #3). Even if you fight back the infection to the point where it can't get a foothold in your body, by not eradicating it you may be passing a semi (if not fully) resistant bacteria to someone else. Bacteria are a worst case scenario because they reproduce asexually (copy themselves), so it's a mixture of #1, #2, and #3 that has brought wonderful things like MRSA to us.
If you want to avoid this happening in your garden here are some things to do:
1. Use more than one thing to kill the bug you're after. If a portion of the group is resistant to one thing, it probably will not be to the other and vice versa.
2. Rotate what you're using each crop cycle (or within a given cycle depending upon the life cycle of the pest you'r'e after)
What I want you to realize, Sea, is that by removing Bti from your rotation you are actually increasing the liklihood that the buggers will become resistant to something else that you are using. Diversity is the key when dealing with pests.
You don't want to overuse Bti, but you should absolutely use it. It will reduce the incidence of resistance with the other products/methods you're using.
Catalina Island? I have an old high school friend living on Catalina. Dave and I have discussed briefly keeping bees, but he'd have to do it. I don't know where the honeybees I see are coming from, but there are a LOT. And lots of other pollinators, including natives. :)Nice!! A fellow beekeeper! I combined my two this spring and have a monster quad deep dual entrance, triple super setup! Only way to keep 60k in one place I figure. As l long as I perpetually harvest they won't swarm. I live off the so cal coast with a nice ocean breeze they are out doing their thing daily since it rains once a blue moon here.
Resistance is actually pretty easy to talk about, so I will.
Basically what you're looking at is the following:
1. Chemical/process kills most of a species in an area--say 99.9% of them.
2. The only surviving members in that area are, thus, naturally resistant.
3. Competition for reproduction is, thus, reduced.
4. If the resistance can be passed genetically, either by one parent (bacteria/insects), or two (insects)--then the next generation will have some members (if not all) which are naturally resistant.
5. The resistant population is initially small, however, continued application of only this one chemical/process can cause this same process to repeat--reducing competition for reproduction among that group over and over again. Eventually you end up with a fully resistant population.
A few notes:
1. If only one parent is needed to pass the resistant mutation, resistance develops more quickly (as with bacteria).
2. If only one chemical/process is used--development of resistance is more common.
3. If application rates for the chemical are not high enough, resistance is more likely (as some in the population may be only *slightly* resistant, but this still selects for greater resistance than none)--in this case resistance can take many generations to develop.
4. This is why it is important that if you need antibiotics you FINISH THE ENTIRE PRESCRIPTION. The doses of antibiotics given is usually way overkill, and there is a reason for that (see #3). Even if you fight back the infection to the point where it can't get a foothold in your body, by not eradicating it you may be passing a semi (if not fully) resistant bacteria to someone else. Bacteria are a worst case scenario because they reproduce asexually (copy themselves), so it's a mixture of #1, #2, and #3 that has brought wonderful things like MRSA to us.
If you want to avoid this happening in your garden here are some things to do:
1. Use more than one thing to kill the bug you're after. If a portion of the group is resistant to one thing, it probably will not be to the other and vice versa.
2. Rotate what you're using each crop cycle (or within a given cycle depending upon the life cycle of the pest you'r'e after)
What I want you to realize, Sea, is that by removing Bti from your rotation you are actually increasing the liklihood that the buggers will become resistant to something else that you are using. Diversity is the key when dealing with pests.
You don't want to overuse Bti, but you should absolutely use it. It will reduce the incidence of resistance with the other products/methods you're using.
I'd like to be on the forefront of organic cannabis production when, not if it gets to California.
Catalina Island? I have an old high school friend living on Catalina. Dave and I have discussed briefly keeping bees, but he'd have to do it. I don't know where the honeybees I see are coming from, but there are a LOT. And lots of other pollinators, including natives. :)
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