Spinosads and honey bees

  • Thread starter BeenBurned
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
BeenBurned

BeenBurned

267
63
It is too bad that they (big gov. regulators) can "ok" a concentrate like Captain Jacks dead bug brew (just an eg.) for organic gardening when Spinosads (the above contains Spinosyn A and D) have been shown to be highly toxic...
From Wikipedia Spinosads...
show slight toxicity to birds, moderate toxicity to fish, and slight to moderate toxicity to aquatic invertebrates. However, it is highly toxic to bees (honey bee LC50 = 11.5 ppm)and is highly toxic to oysters and other marine mollusks.Applications to areas where bees are actively foraging should be avoided. After the residues have dried, it is much less toxic to bees.

Nice huh..?? the whole article...
http://www.bigpictureagriculture.com/2012/01/honeybee-decline-story-spinosads-and.html

Lesson learned, read everything!!
 
caregiverken

caregiverken

Fear Not!
Supporter
11,535
438
what? :confused: @squiggly just told me it was safe!

Thankfully, not many honey bees are on my plants...:bored:

Might use more BT this year instead though..
Is it safer?
 
BeenBurned

BeenBurned

267
63
The Devils work...




makes me want to move to the flatass middle of nowhere!!
 
Rosenberg

Rosenberg

139
63
It's a given that any insecticide, whether natural or synthetic, is going to be toxic to insects - that's what they're used for!
 
BeenBurned

BeenBurned

267
63
Both are derived from natural sources (Bti is, itself, a bacteria). It's safe for YOU ken, but obviously bees aren't very big on it. You didn't ask me if bees should consume it lol.
Hey Squiggly, my intent was NOT to call u out but the product...:rolleyes:
Sorry yo' BB
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
what? :confused: @squiggly just told me it was safe!

Thankfully, not many honey bees are on my plants...:bored:

Might use more BT this year instead though..
Is it safer?
Don't expect it to be as effective anymore. ;)
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
I have to go with physical barriers, Ken, there's really nothing else to use.

I know you're aware of the Bt corn that came out a couple of years ago. It's now, in VERY short order, created Bt-resistant corn borers. I see absolutely no reason why other pests should *not* also become resistant at this point. So, I've dropped Bt from my OD rotation. Due to the issues with pollinators, I'm dropping Spinosad from my rotation as well. That leaves me/us physical barriers, such as noseeum netting, mosquito netting and the like.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
I have to go with physical barriers, Ken, there's really nothing else to use.

I know you're aware of the Bt corn that came out a couple of years ago. It's now, in VERY short order, created Bt-resistant corn borers. I see absolutely no reason why other pests should *not* also become resistant at this point. So, I've dropped Bt from my OD rotation. Due to the issues with pollinators, I'm dropping Spinosad from my rotation as well. That leaves me/us physical barriers, such as noseeum netting, mosquito netting and the like.

If you're using stuff in rotation Seamaiden, this will prevent development of resistance in your local area.

Resistance is mostly caused by huge crops relying solely on the BT toxin. In fact the main financial "benefit" of planting BT corn is that you can sort of "set it and forget it" and not have to use a rotation in the first place.

A normal farming family wouldn't do this, but factory farmers do--because it cuts down on pesticide cost and application labor.

After a season or two, though, the resistance is there and they're back to square one.

Using it for yourself personally in a rotation won't bring about resistance, if you experienced resistance it'd likely be from a factory farm in your area. The problem is using this pesticide to the exclusion of all others.

Furthermore, in your garden you're not using the BT toxin itself--but rather a bacterial culture that attacks pests, colonizes them, and applies the toxin fromwithin. This process develops resistance at a much lower rate than simply applying the toxin itself (which is what BT corn does).

It's totally safe to continue using Bti in your garden, and even recommended (as a natural pesticide--which come far and few between these days).
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Remember squigs, both Ken and I are a relative handful of miles from California's Central Valley, damn near the home of factory/conventional agriculture. The world expo is held down in Bakersfield... or is it Fresno? I can't remember, but every time we head down 99 we drive past the center.

I don't fully understand the mechanisms of resistance, nor do I fully understand how that might expand. Thus my extreme caution here. Plus, the Spinosad is just no good for my pollinators, of which I've got a qualified metric buttload.
 
T

toquer

460
93
Nice!! A fellow beekeeper! I combined my two this spring and have a monster quad deep dual entrance, triple super setup! Only way to keep 60k in one place I figure. As l long as I perpetually harvest they won't swarm. I live off the so cal coast with a nice ocean breeze they are out doing their thing daily since it rains once a blue moon here.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
Remember squigs, both Ken and I are a relative handful of miles from California's Central Valley, damn near the home of factory/conventional agriculture. The world expo is held down in Bakersfield... or is it Fresno? I can't remember, but every time we head down 99 we drive past the center.

I don't fully understand the mechanisms of resistance, nor do I fully understand how that might expand. Thus my extreme caution here. Plus, the Spinosad is just no good for my pollinators, of which I've got a qualified metric buttload.

Resistance is actually pretty easy to talk about, so I will.

Basically what you're looking at is the following:

1. Chemical/process kills most of a species in an area--say 99.9% of them.
2. The only surviving members in that area are, thus, naturally resistant.
3. Competition for reproduction is, thus, reduced.
4. If the resistance can be passed genetically, either by one parent (bacteria/insects), or two (insects)--then the next generation will have some members (if not all) which are naturally resistant.
5. The resistant population is initially small, however, continued application of only this one chemical/process can cause this same process to repeat--reducing competition for reproduction among that group over and over again. Eventually you end up with a fully resistant population.

A few notes:

1. If only one parent is needed to pass the resistant mutation, resistance develops more quickly (as with bacteria).
2. If only one chemical/process is used--development of resistance is more common.
3. If application rates for the chemical are not high enough, resistance is more likely (as some in the population may be only *slightly* resistant, but this still selects for greater resistance than none)--in this case resistance can take many generations to develop.
4. This is why it is important that if you need antibiotics you FINISH THE ENTIRE PRESCRIPTION. The doses of antibiotics given is usually way overkill, and there is a reason for that (see #3). Even if you fight back the infection to the point where it can't get a foothold in your body, by not eradicating it you may be passing a semi (if not fully) resistant bacteria to someone else. Bacteria are a worst case scenario because they reproduce asexually (copy themselves), so it's a mixture of #1, #2, and #3 that has brought wonderful things like MRSA to us.

If you want to avoid this happening in your garden here are some things to do:

1. Use more than one thing to kill the bug you're after. If a portion of the group is resistant to one thing, it probably will not be to the other and vice versa.
2. Rotate what you're using each crop cycle (or within a given cycle depending upon the life cycle of the pest you'r'e after)


What I want you to realize, Sea, is that by removing Bti from your rotation you are actually increasing the liklihood that the buggers will become resistant to something else that you are using. Diversity is the key when dealing with pests.

You don't want to overuse Bti, but you should absolutely use it. It will reduce the incidence of resistance with the other products/methods you're using.
 
lino

lino

2,637
263
I luv Bt When cultured properly in my garden:
Environmental Protection Agency-registered Bt products include:
B.t. aizawai —used for wax moth larvae in honeycombs, (Lepidoptera). I have concerns with aizawai bacterial effect on bee's.
B.t. israelensis (Diptera)—frequently used for mosquitoes. One of my favorite to use with cannabis.
B.t. kurstaki (Lepidoptera)— frequently used for gypsy moth, spruce budworm, and many vegetable pests. I boosted this culture this year. Moth outbreak.
B.t. san diego and tenebrionis (Coleoptera)—frequently used for elm leaf beetle, Colorado potato beetle

B.t. kurstaki is the most commonly used Bt formulation, as it will kill many leaf-feeding larvae on vegetables, shrubs, fruit trees, and conifers. Th ere is abundant scientifi c literature on this biopesticidal organism .Other Bt isolates have been characterized but not yet registered by the EPA. These include:
B.t. galleriae (Coleoptera)—used on Japanese beetles B.t. japonensis and kumamotoensis (Coleoptera)—used on several turf beetle species
Local isolates of Bt could represent an underutilized, yet powerful, biological control resource. In China, 30 new strains of Bt were isolated from rylands,
gardens, and rice fi elds; from these, one highly toxic strain was able to kill 100 percent of treated diamondback moth larvae (Plutella xylostella). Similarly high toxicities were found in ten new Bt strains isolated from leaf and soil samples in Poland and in four new strains discovered in Mexico. Local bacterial populations have the advantage of being adapted to local insect hosts; thus, it is logical to expect to find powerful biocontrol agents in the pest’s backyard.

Spinosads :yuck:
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
638
Resistance is actually pretty easy to talk about, so I will.

Basically what you're looking at is the following:

1. Chemical/process kills most of a species in an area--say 99.9% of them.
2. The only surviving members in that area are, thus, naturally resistant.
3. Competition for reproduction is, thus, reduced.
4. If the resistance can be passed genetically, either by one parent (bacteria/insects), or two (insects)--then the next generation will have some members (if not all) which are naturally resistant.
5. The resistant population is initially small, however, continued application of only this one chemical/process can cause this same process to repeat--reducing competition for reproduction among that group over and over again. Eventually you end up with a fully resistant population.

A few notes:

1. If only one parent is needed to pass the resistant mutation, resistance develops more quickly (as with bacteria).
2. If only one chemical/process is used--development of resistance is more common.
3. If application rates for the chemical are not high enough, resistance is more likely (as some in the population may be only *slightly* resistant, but this still selects for greater resistance than none)--in this case resistance can take many generations to develop.
4. This is why it is important that if you need antibiotics you FINISH THE ENTIRE PRESCRIPTION. The doses of antibiotics given is usually way overkill, and there is a reason for that (see #3). Even if you fight back the infection to the point where it can't get a foothold in your body, by not eradicating it you may be passing a semi (if not fully) resistant bacteria to someone else. Bacteria are a worst case scenario because they reproduce asexually (copy themselves), so it's a mixture of #1, #2, and #3 that has brought wonderful things like MRSA to us.

If you want to avoid this happening in your garden here are some things to do:

1. Use more than one thing to kill the bug you're after. If a portion of the group is resistant to one thing, it probably will not be to the other and vice versa.
2. Rotate what you're using each crop cycle (or within a given cycle depending upon the life cycle of the pest you'r'e after)


What I want you to realize, Sea, is that by removing Bti from your rotation you are actually increasing the liklihood that the buggers will become resistant to something else that you are using. Diversity is the key when dealing with pests.

You don't want to overuse Bti, but you should absolutely use it. It will reduce the incidence of resistance with the other products/methods you're using.
How on earth would they become resistant to a physical barrier?? I'm not using a whole slew of products, I have a select handful that were chosen very carefully for specific reasons. Due to the new research showing that spinosad is indeed going to affect pollinators, I'm dropping it. Due to the resistant corn borer, I'm dropping Bt products. In fact, part of what's propelled my decision here is the fact that there is nothing approved for use on cannabis, and when combined with my stellar record (I'm bondable and insurable, pass the BG checks) I'd like to be on the forefront of organic cannabis production when, not if it gets to California.

There are other methods of pest management that don't involve spraying anything at all. For example, 'trap' plants, which are basically treats offered up to pests in trade for them leaving the desirable crops alone.



I understand the basic concepts and precepts of resistance that science itself is already aware of--in essence, we end up selecting *out* the most resistant organisms. In fact, I just watched a TED talk on bacteria that pretty much blew my mind. That said, I know that even you can't say that science itself fully understands or grasps all mechanisms of resistance. ;)

Nice!! A fellow beekeeper! I combined my two this spring and have a monster quad deep dual entrance, triple super setup! Only way to keep 60k in one place I figure. As l long as I perpetually harvest they won't swarm. I live off the so cal coast with a nice ocean breeze they are out doing their thing daily since it rains once a blue moon here.
Catalina Island? I have an old high school friend living on Catalina. Dave and I have discussed briefly keeping bees, but he'd have to do it. I don't know where the honeybees I see are coming from, but there are a LOT. And lots of other pollinators, including natives. :)
 
BeenBurned

BeenBurned

267
63
Resistance is actually pretty easy to talk about, so I will.

Basically what you're looking at is the following:

1. Chemical/process kills most of a species in an area--say 99.9% of them.
2. The only surviving members in that area are, thus, naturally resistant.
3. Competition for reproduction is, thus, reduced.
4. If the resistance can be passed genetically, either by one parent (bacteria/insects), or two (insects)--then the next generation will have some members (if not all) which are naturally resistant.
5. The resistant population is initially small, however, continued application of only this one chemical/process can cause this same process to repeat--reducing competition for reproduction among that group over and over again. Eventually you end up with a fully resistant population.

A few notes:

1. If only one parent is needed to pass the resistant mutation, resistance develops more quickly (as with bacteria).
2. If only one chemical/process is used--development of resistance is more common.
3. If application rates for the chemical are not high enough, resistance is more likely (as some in the population may be only *slightly* resistant, but this still selects for greater resistance than none)--in this case resistance can take many generations to develop.
4. This is why it is important that if you need antibiotics you FINISH THE ENTIRE PRESCRIPTION. The doses of antibiotics given is usually way overkill, and there is a reason for that (see #3). Even if you fight back the infection to the point where it can't get a foothold in your body, by not eradicating it you may be passing a semi (if not fully) resistant bacteria to someone else. Bacteria are a worst case scenario because they reproduce asexually (copy themselves), so it's a mixture of #1, #2, and #3 that has brought wonderful things like MRSA to us.

If you want to avoid this happening in your garden here are some things to do:

1. Use more than one thing to kill the bug you're after. If a portion of the group is resistant to one thing, it probably will not be to the other and vice versa.
2. Rotate what you're using each crop cycle (or within a given cycle depending upon the life cycle of the pest you'r'e after)


What I want you to realize, Sea, is that by removing Bti from your rotation you are actually increasing the liklihood that the buggers will become resistant to something else that you are using. Diversity is the key when dealing with pests.

You don't want to overuse Bti, but you should absolutely use it. It will reduce the incidence of resistance with the other products/methods you're using.

I am running a "game" called Plague inc. on my ipad:hungover:...
....methinks you would be good at it!
 
T

toquer

460
93
I'd like to be on the forefront of organic cannabis production when, not if it gets to California.

i've been in communication with an affiliate of this group. they are on the forefront of when... at least last time i was at one of the classes.

http://cleangreencert.com/home/


Catalina Island? I have an old high school friend living on Catalina. Dave and I have discussed briefly keeping bees, but he'd have to do it. I don't know where the honeybees I see are coming from, but there are a LOT. And lots of other pollinators, including natives. :)

no i'm on the mainland. 21 miles away from the island. lol. would be tough to have enough food on that small island year round i'd think. i keep urban bees!! haha. but down here things are always in bloom.
 
squiggly

squiggly

3,277
263
Far as Spinosads affecting bees, probably a good idea to drop it outdoors for now. I still don't think there's an excellent reason to drop BTi as a result of the corn borers. For one, cannabis ain't corn, for two--BT toxin ain't Bti (the organism).

Just a side note that the uproar over dying bees probably isn't well warranted. They're dying at alarming rates, but it's not likely to be an extinction event. Instead, what is happening is bees are being selected for their own resistances right now in front of us.

Definitely worth studying, worth being careful, but not likely to be something that ends the world as we know it. If anything we're probably going to end up with freaking super bees at the end of the line.
 
K

kali707

15
3
Most of the "organic" bug fighters fuck up bees or the environment. Only a couple that dont. Almost got fired over promise
 
Top Bottom