Sudden Taco Leaves Only On New Growth

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

Extreme tacoing leaves only on new growth. Spreads from one corner of the room slowly. The plants are healthy otherwise. If I carry through to harvest with them the buds have a massive amount of seeds which I'm thinking is due to the stress. I think it is a soil disease as I'm in beds.

What does tacoing signify? Losing too much moisture too fast?

My environment is on point. I feel this developed from a compost tea that wasn't areated enough.

Joe Fresh · Apr 7, 2015

i got that recently on about half my seedlings, i tested runoff, and noticed the runoff ppms about 1800 in the affected plants, and about 1000 in non affected plants, i credit this taco effect due to having light too intense for plant stage, and having a soil mix too hot for the plants at that stage, the reason some plants were doing ok is because they were a different strain, so i assume they were able to handle the hot soil and ate their nutes up...i have since raised the lights and flushed the plants and let them air out adequately...

my soil was a bit hot because i mixed too much worm castings and azomite, putting too many minerals in the soil and creating a hot environment for the plant to thrive

having too much heat from the top and a mix thats a bit too hot and water logged will create the effect that the plants cant transpire properly, the roots wont be able to drink as fast as they could if there was more air to the roots

in your case, i would assume that its a similar problem, i would start by checking runoff if you can, both ph and EC...then after you know where you stand, raise the lights to reduce stress on plants

mojavegreen · Apr 7, 2015

I'm in hydro but I experienced similar affect when I got Pythium.

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

Joe Fresh said:
i got that recently on about half my seedlings, i tested runoff, and noticed the runoff ppms about 1800 in the affected plants, and about 1000 in non affected plants, i credit this taco effect due to having light too intense for plant stage, and having a soil mix too hot for the plants at that stage, the reason some plants were doing ok is because they were a different strain, so i assume they were able to handle the hot soil and ate their nutes up...i have since raised the lights and flushed the plants and let them air out adequately...

my soil was a bit hot because i mixed too much worm castings and azomite, putting too many minerals in the soil and creating a hot environment for the plant to thrive

having too much heat from the top and a mix thats a bit too hot and water logged will create the effect that the plants cant transpire properly, the roots wont be able to drink as fast as they could if there was more air to the roots

in your case, i would assume that its a similar problem, i would start by checking runoff if you can, both ph and EC...then after you know where you stand, raise the lights to reduce stress on plants

Thanks for the reply. Runoff tested already around 300 tds. Beds dry out in 2 days so I'm not waterlogged. I've ripped out a few and examined them before. Stalks are crisp and full of water. It's like the plant can't get the moisture to the new growing shoots so they roll up. So weird.

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

mojavegreen said:
I'm in hydro but I experienced similar affect when I got Pythium.

I pulled a few plants already and My roots are big and white. I wish it was root rot then I could atleast know and treat. Regardless I have hit them with cannazym, plantacilin, caps bennies before and nothing stops the curl. It's just gets worse till all the leaves curl up. The plant will look like a tree in fall. Rigid stalk and all with rolled up leaves.

Joe Fresh · Apr 7, 2015

Ronnie88 said:
Thanks for the reply. Runoff tested already around 300 tds. Beds dry out in 2 days so I'm not waterlogged. I've ripped out a few and examined them before. Stalks are crisp and full of water. It's like the plant can't get the moisture to the new growing shoots so they roll up. So weird.

then i would suggest your vpd is out of whack, @Seamaiden is the pro at vpd and could give you more info on it..but your lights could be raised to relieve stress on the plants, how is your RH right now? in veg it should be close to 70%...if its below 40-50% it could cause this effect.

one thing for sure is if your runoff tds os only 300, i would feed them for sure with a 1.0-1.2 EC, 300ppm(0.6 EC) runoff would indicate that they are in dire need of food...anything lower than 1.4 EC runoff means there are not many nutes available fo rthe plant

edit...healthy runoff ppms ahould be between 900-1200(1.8-2.4 ec)..with certain strains tolerating up to 1800ppm runoff(3.6 EC)....

G gnome · Apr 7, 2015

Could you be hitting them w too much wind?

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

Joe Fresh said:
then i would suggest your vpd is out of whack, @Seamaiden is the pro at vpd and could give you more info on it..but your lights could be raised to relieve stress on the plants, how is your RH right now? in veg it should be close to 70%...if its below 40-50% it could cause this effect.

one thing for sure is if your runoff tds os only 300, i would feed them for sure with a 1.0-1.2 EC, 300ppm(0.6 EC) runoff would indicate that they are in dire need of food...anything lower than 1.4 EC runoff means there are not many nutes available fo rthe plant

edit...healthy runoff ppms ahould be between 900-1200(1.8-2.4 ec)..with certain strains tolerating up to 1800ppm runoff(3.6 EC)....

The plants that are affected right now aren't even directly under the light, they're inbetween and on the outside.

VPD is in check I've been through that thread many times. The low EC does seem weird. Plants look healthy and dark green. I even noticed slight slight tip burn on a few but I did feed them today.

It's crazy. It will eventually spread to the whole room with time. 99 percent sure it's a soil born virus/bacteria etc just can't figure out what. It's shown up every crop for over a year. Different rooms too. Brand new rooms. So that why I assume it must be something I'm feeding and the only thing that I can think of is my alfalfa/ewc/kelp tea.

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

G gnome said:
Could you be hitting them w too much wind?

Nah don't think so. That room has 1 fan and blows above the canopy. My environment is in check.

Ronnie88 · Apr 7, 2015

Here's another pic with lights off. So when a plant curls it's stomata to the sun what is it saying? Trying to conserve water? Needs to sweat but can't?

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

yes, during transpiration if the leaves do this they are trying to conserve water in the plant its self...and this usually happens when the salt content of the media is too high...and this happened to me with my seedlings...like i said...they were fine til about 12" tall, then it started...and i never gave them any ferts before then either...just plain water...but when i checked the runoff of the healthy vs non-healthy, you seen the results i posted above....and this was purely from worm castings and azomite, and dolomite lime, mixed in promix...

im going to guess that your not letting enough runoff out the bottom to test...that is why your only getting 300 ppm...if i water my plants when dry with plain water, then catch a runoff, it will be at about 500ppm...if i wait, and let the plant drink slower, until saturated, but with no runoff, then let her sit an hour or so to let all the salts in the soil/media to disolve int the water...then after about an hour ill come back, and pour about one liter of water, and about one liter of water will come out the bottom...ill test those and ppm will be about 850...i do this 2 more times, and the next is 1100, and the 3rd is 1800.....the 3rd one is the key, it tells me that the ppms are rising, not dropping, and that there is too much salts in the medium for the plant to thrive and transpire properly....salt content and heat are the 2 main reasons for the taco as you have...

i would like to reccomend you test runoff again ......this time water plant very slowly until its fully saturated and only a very very small amount of runoff stays at the bottom...remove runoff, now flood plants again to collect runoff..do this 3 times and test runoff each time....record the difference between each reading.....to get an accurate reading each time, make sure to get between 10-20% runoff each time

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

Ronnie88 said:
Here's another pic with lights off. So when a plant curls it's stomata to the sun what is it saying? Trying to conserve water? Needs to sweat but can't?

light too intense, too much heat, or plant cant drink and transpire properly....

K(potassium) plays the biggest role in the water translocation within the plant....the first thing to get locked out due to high salt content is potassium and calcium, depending the situation which comes first....

Ronnie88 · Apr 8, 2015

Joe Fresh said:
yes, during transpiration if the leaves do this they are trying to conserve water in the plant its self...and this usually happens when the salt content of the media is too high...and this happened to me with my seedlings...like i said...they were fine til about 12" tall, then it started...and i never gave them any ferts before then either...just plain water...but when i checked the runoff of the healthy vs non-healthy, you seen the results i posted above....and this was purely from worm castings and azomite, and dolomite lime, mixed in promix...

im going to guess that your not letting enough runoff out the bottom to test...that is why your only getting 300 ppm...if i water my plants when dry with plain water, then catch a runoff, it will be at about 500ppm...if i wait, and let the plant drink slower, until saturated, but with no runoff, then let her sit an hour or so to let all the salts in the soil/media to disolve int the water...then after about an hour ill come back, and pour about one liter of water, and about one liter of water will come out the bottom...ill test those and ppm will be about 850...i do this 2 more times, and the next is 1100, and the 3rd is 1800.....the 3rd one is the key, it tells me that the ppms are rising, not dropping, and that there is too much salts in the medium for the plant to thrive and transpire properly....salt content and heat are the 2 main reasons for the taco as you have...

i would like to reccomend you test runoff again ......this time water plant very slowly until its fully saturated and only a very very small amount of runoff stays at the bottom...remove runoff, now flood plants again to collect runoff..do this 3 times and test runoff each time....record the difference between each reading.....to get an accurate reading each time, make sure to get between 10-20% runoff each time

I appreciate the time youre taking to try and help me figure this out.

Im in beds so when i say i take runoff, i take a sample of soil and do a slurry test. I have a bed lined with poly then a bed of perlite and then landscape fabric as a membrane on top as a filter, then my promix. So cant catch the runoff like pots. If the salt content of the media was too high for the plant wouldnt i see overfert symptoms? And why would it start at one plant in the corner and then progress through the rest of the bed like a wave? These leaves roll up like a joint. The plants still grow but the product is useless with so many seeds in it, there is more seeds than bud. If this was from high salt content im sure i would find someone else with these same symptoms. Ive had hermies before and this is way worse. And this happened last round in pots as well. I also have a few other rooms that are beds and they are doing awesome. The whole plant is healthy, no leave discoloration, huge stalks. Just leaf curl on all new growth, which turns into deformed bud growth, then an abundance of seeds. It seems like something has infected it and majorly stressed it out.

My water is around 80 tds out of the tap but half of the res ends up being dehum water at 0 tds. They were all just fed a regular feed today so in two days they will get plain water, but i think the affected ones will be too far gone and ill have to just pull them. Where do people go or lookup to get plants tested?

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

Ronnie88 said:
I appreciate the time youre taking to try and help me figure this out.

Im in beds so when i say i take runoff, i take a sample of soil and do a slurry test. I have a bed lined with poly then a bed of perlite and then landscape fabric as a membrane on top as a filter, then my promix. So cant catch the runoff like pots. If the salt content of the media was too high for the plant wouldnt i see overfert symptoms? And why would it start at one plant in the corner and then progress through the rest of the bed like a wave? These leaves roll up like a joint. The plants still grow but the product is useless with so many seeds in it, there is more seeds than bud. If this was from high salt content im sure i would find someone else with these same symptoms. Ive had hermies before and this is way worse. And this happened last round in pots as well. I also have a few other rooms that are beds and they are doing awesome. The whole plant is healthy, no leave discoloration, huge stalks. Just leaf curl on all new growth, which turns into deformed bud growth, then an abundance of seeds. It seems like something has infected it and majorly stressed it out.

My water is around 80 tds out of the tap but half of the res ends up being dehum water at 0 tds. They were all just fed a regular feed today so in two days they will get plain water, but i think the affected ones will be too far gone and ill have to just pull them. Where do people go or lookup to get plants tested?

maybve you have a potassium or calcium issue...having 80 tds is great, i start at 170....but you start at 80, then dilute with dehumidifier water...i think there is your problem....

if i were you, ditch the dehumidifier water, and use straight tap, add cal/mag til total tds is 200 about...then add base nutes or whatever your planning to add....the dehumidifier water is like ro in that is will be easier to fluctuate in ph, and it will lower you starting minerals even lower, not to mention that any pathogens that may be in the air, will be in the dehumidifier water

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

another thing to look at, is bugs, have you looked at broad mites? i have not had them so i could not help you with that, but if i remember correctly they give off similar tacoing effect but only at the tops i think...

Ronnie88 · Apr 8, 2015

I think I would see a calcium or mag def in the lower leaves like rust spots and yellowing and the classic porassium def I've seen when running coco. I've honestly gone through everything. Curl shows up every time somewhere.

I just cut this branch off the worst plant. Soon all the leaves will look like this.

Ronnie88 · Apr 8, 2015

Joe Fresh said:
another thing to look at, is bugs, have you looked at broad mites? i have not had them so i could not help you with that, but if i remember correctly they give off similar tacoing effect but only at the tops i think...

Yep looked into that as well about a year ago.

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisture_stress

Ronnie88 · Apr 8, 2015

Joe Fresh said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisture_stress

Yeah i agree but why? Roots are healthy and white. Humidity 60 Temps 78-80. 6.0 Ph. Never over 2 EC. 2 feeds 1 water, even did 2 waters in a row last week after i ripped out the first half that started to curl. I will take 3 soil samples tomorrow from the bottom and see what ec is but i highly doubt its due to high salt in soil

Joe Fresh · Apr 8, 2015

Ronnie88 said:
Yeah i agree but why? Roots are healthy and white. Humidity 60 Temps 78-80. 6.0 Ph. Never over 2 EC. 2 feeds 1 water, even did 2 waters in a row last week after i ripped out the first half that started to curl. I will take 3 soil samples tomorrow from the bottom and see what ec is but i highly doubt its due to high salt in soil

did you say 2 feeds, and one water...@ 2EC? that is good for a full mature plant in full bloom at peak growth...even for me thats high...i got max at 1.4-1.7 EC, and i feed water feed water....

you must remember, the more intense the light, the more water and less nutes the plants will want to drink, so over time the nutes will concentrate themselves because the plants will be drinking more water and the salts will continuously build up, until the plant can no longer transpire correctly...

not saying htis is for sure your problem, but it is what i am thinking at this point...

how old are your plants? or how tall?

a buddy of mine just had some issues with his plants, he never had these issues before, so i asked him how his plants looked, imediately o tild him over fert, he said thats impossible....i then asked him how he feeds, he said 1000 ppm every watering, lol i asked him why? he said because our mutual friend trold him i fertilize every watering lol...i laughed because when i do fertilize every watering, i fertilize @ max 650ppm, and make sure to have 20% runoff each time i water, he was ferting at 1000ppm every watering with no runoff.....

thats another thing, runoff, you need to have between 10-20% runoff everytime, of not, you will have salt build up, if you want to have less runoff, you need to cut your nutes by 1/3 to 1/2

Sudden Taco Leaves Only On New Growth

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