Switching to coco

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sgt. schultz

sgt. schultz

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Finally switching to coco in 5 gallon buckets. Seems like the bricks would be cheapest. How many bricks to fill a 5 gallon bucket? Are bags of loose coco cheaper? My source is Lowe's. Bricks are 2.50 and 10 quart bags are 5.00. Peace.
 
dankworth

dankworth

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Chow mix.
Bake and rinse the shit out of your bricks. I had to do it in turkey bags.
No pests can live. Be safe, not sorry. I would not have ended up with root aphids had I done this with all my coco.
Chow mix, drippers, irrigate 1-2x hourly, 20% runoff, super high growth rate.
I have a veg and bloom mix, from salts, that I did tutorials on in the nute section.
Copying JK mostly for flowering.
Chow hempies would be cool too, but much slower than the dtw dripper-fed chow.
Spend a day fucking with bricks, put them in turkey bags, and you will have coco for days and days.
But cut that coco with hydroton.
Better than perlite.
I have worked with both.
Chow mix in ez-roots aeration frames kicks ass, if the coco is kept fairly saturated.
A fine-tuned dtw does not go through that much solution compared to many recirc systems.
I eat, sleep, and breathe topdrip chow mix these days. Best combination of performance and reliability that I have found.

Oh and to actually answer your question,
Bricks.
 
dankworth

dankworth

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dankworth

dankworth

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We all want dwc performance with non-rdwc reliability.​
At least I do.​
Some systems want to take a shit. Others do not.​
Like planes in their designs.​
The more maneuverable ones, because of the geometry they must necessarily display, are inherently unstable in flight. If you take your hands off the stick, they will veer out of control and crash.​
Then we have the stable ones. If you take your hands off the stick, they will right themselves. They will porpoise their way slowly out of a dive, a turn, etc. Give them long enough with no control inputs, and they will end up flying straight and level.​
But they trade performance for reliability.​
So RDWC wants to take a shit. And Krusty. Why? Recirculation.​
DTW is not known to be inherently failure-prone. Look at everybody's dtw coco runs. Look at hempy buckets. Standalone dwc tolerates higher res temps, and presumably lower DO levels, than rdwc. Why? Something to do with pathogens related to root exudates, I suspect.​
Like a doorknob at a public place. All those germs. It will get get you sick. Foreign germs and all.​
Unlike your doorknob at your place. Which does not get you sick.You have built up resistance to that funk.​
Plants get sick, catch colds. From doorknobs.​
Recirculating solutions recirculate exudate from roots.​
Shit. Recirculating shit.​
Pathogens working with exudate from plant A can victimize plant B because, well, plant B is being fed plant A's shit.​
Swimming in shit. No wonder they get sick. No wonder the systems require all the bullshit they do. Chillers, Zone, h2o2, bleach, don't use this, can't use that.​
No organics? Fuckever. Organics rock, they do so much cool shit.​
So the solution is, as I mentioned previously, to dtw.​
So you get yourself an EZ-Roots aeration frame. Or spend hours like a bitch drilling holes, then sanding or blowtorching them to smooth them out. Or some shit.​
Fill your aeration frame with 76% hydroton, 24% coco.(joke)​
Topdrip into it. Like all the peeps with slanted tables and smartpots. Get your 20% runoff every time you irrigate. Roots will want to grow out the bottom. They will eventually air-prune.​
But wait. That 20% runoff. Where does it go again?​
Down the drain.​
But then I thought​
If you cut a hole in the lid of a 27 gal tote, and put a drain as low as you could, you would have like 1-1.5" of water at the bottom of the tote(swc)
Then the roots could kick it in the shallow water layer too.
The water would not be that deep. So it would not necessarily have to be actively oxygenated. And the solution contained there would be turned over fairly rapidly, once every day or two.​
Hempy buckets work, don't they?​
So then I reflected back to this one system I built, with miniature netpots suspended in a lid over a 1" layer of water. But a recirc system.​
They exploded, and were really happy with me, when I introduced airstones to the layer of water.​
But airstones are vectors for airborne pathogens.​
Unless one actually used a hepa filter for their snorkel. Seems simple in retrospect.​
So then we can get air with little to no pathogen risk to the roots dangling in the water.​
And those roots would follow DWC laws.​
And not take a shit.​
Let's say the DWC roots took a shit. Then what?​
Who cares. Tear them off and keep topdripping into the chow bucket.​
You don't need a bigass root mass to do trees. One can get 2+ from a couple stacked 5 gal buckets if done right.​
So the dwc roots are extra, another avenue for feeding.​
Because dwc performance, once seen, cannot be forgotten.​
Then​
After we topdripped into chow and fed those roots​
And that drained into the shallow(or you could make it deeper) water layer, ran airstones, and fed those roots​
Then the 20% runoff can go away.​
So we never recirculate shit. I added a layer of earthworm castings on the chow, and a layer of coco on top of that. Home for bennies.​
Bennies will in fact discourage pathogens if used correctly.​
But like I said, those dwc roots are extra roots anyways, and nonessential.​
And if your topdrip has rotted somehow, well...​
Fuck who knows. I don't have that problem. Don't even know how to get it, topdripping periodically into chow. Just don't recirc.​
Now, though dwc tolerates high temps with aplomb compared to rdwc, we would like to keep the solution at 68 or so I am guessing. For insurance. For shits and giggles.​
So I will be constructing a box, in a very halfass fashion, out of reflectix. That contains the totes. A reflectix tile across the top of the totes, across the whole canopy. And encase the sides too.​
Then take a duct booster, and pull some AC'ed air through some duct, and pump it into the aforementioned reflectix box. Lightly pressurized. Set that shit to a remote thermostat if you want that reads the temp somewhere in this box.​
That way you have a higher margin of safety, with lower dwc/swc mini-res temps.​
One could take advantage of concrete floors too.​
So this way we will get dwc growth rates​
And topdrip reliability​
With less water consumption than​
UC​
MPB​
Ebb & flow​
Ebb & grow(that shit is so funny)​
etc.​
I figured I should do this first, and test it fully before making claims.​
But maybe there is someone who could benefit from this.​
I can run organics now​
I can veg fast enough to make trees practical​
I could yank and transplant into more coco if needed​
I can do anything I want.​
I can REPOSITION PLANTS.​
I said​
I CAN REPOSITION PLANTS.​
Platforms, casters, flexible tubing for feed and drain.​
What.​
I feel like a dopegrowing superhero sometimes.​
And you can too.​

(reposted from the RDWC brown root problems???? thread)
 
outwest

outwest

Premium Gardener
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We all want dwc performance with non-rdwc reliability.​
At least I do.​
Some systems want to take a shit. Others do not.​
And topdrip reliability​
With less water consumption than​
I can run organics now​
I can veg fast enough to make trees practical​
I could yank and transplant into more coco if needed​
I can do anything I want.​
I can REPOSITION PLANTS.​
I said​
I CAN REPOSITION PLANTS.​
Platforms, casters, flexible tubing for feed and drain.​
What.​
I feel like a dopegrowing superhero sometimes.​
And you can too.​

(reposted from the RDWC brown root problems???? thread)

I'm 100% organic, and loving it. And see a lot of the same benefits, other than yield. All my nutes are in the soil. Plants have never been happier. Not even close actually. You are a hero to many, DankWorth.

outwest
 
deep buddy

deep buddy

715
93
I can run organics now​
I can veg fast enough to make trees practical​
I could yank and transplant into more coco if needed​
I can do anything I want.​
I can REPOSITION PLANTS.​
I said​
I CAN REPOSITION PLANTS.​
Platforms, casters, flexible tubing for feed and drain.​
What.​
I feel like a dopegrowing superhero sometimes.​
And you can too.​
------​
"i can do anything, way up high ,its in the sky, my mufugin reading rainbow!!!!"​
but dank this is exactly what im working on right now. chow mix in a converted rwdc system i have everything but the hepa filter for the airstones, fucking bam thanks for that tid bit. but yeha i plan oeith double bucketing it or just using landscaping felt pushed in supported by some crushed water bottles. we will see but my prognosis is AWESOMENESS.​
 
Resinable

Resinable

147
28
Great riff on the chow mix, Dankworth.

I have been wanting to run the chow for quite some time now myself; it is almost eery to here you talk about:
If you cut a hole in the lid of a 27 gal tote, and put a drain as low as you could, you would have like 1-1.5" of water at the bottom of the tote(swc)
Then the roots could kick it in the shallow water layer too.
I've been thinking of doing something very similar: take a shallower tote maybe 10 inches tall, cut a hole in the lid, with the intent of positioning a square root brand pot (so roots can come thru more easily) filled with chow into the hole.

Then I'm also considering filling the entire tote with perlite or hydroton, this way you would have lower chamber of humid/moist medium for you roots to expand into. Also debating how high do I put the square root pot? All the way to the bottom of the tote? Or only five inches or so down resting on the perlite or hydroton? And where to put the drain (I think you may be right about as low as possible)?

One thing that has held me back from doing chow mix is not wanting to mix my own; for even a medium sized grow this would be very labor intensive. But now with gold label 80/20 things should be much easier.

I wonder if chow mix could be improved by taking out the coco and replacing it with fytocell or loose fill rockwool? One advantage would be that such a mix could come prepackaged, sealed and sterile eliminating worries about bugs that could come in coco.

Lastly, I gotta mention, I disagree about the need to run this type of system/mix drain to waste. I think the problem withe RDWC comes from the deep water part not the recirculating part. This is based on my having run coco perlite recirculating many times without issue.

Right now I am in coco/perlite draining to waste and using 75 to 90 gallons every day. In chow mix I would be using up even more; just based on experience I think it is unnecessary.

Anyway I can't wait to set this up and see how it preforms, maybe I'll do a grow log.
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
I can run organics now​
I can veg fast enough to make trees practical​
I could yank and transplant into more coco if needed​
I can do anything I want.​
I can REPOSITION PLANTS.​
I said​
I CAN REPOSITION PLANTS.​
Platforms, casters, flexible tubing for feed and drain.​
What.​
I feel like a dopegrowing superhero sometimes.​
And you can too.​
------​
"i can do anything, way up high ,its in the sky, my mufugin reading rainbow!!!!"​
but dank this is exactly what im working on right now. chow mix in a converted rwdc system i have everything but the hepa filter for the airstones, fucking bam thanks for that tid bit. but yeha i plan oeith double bucketing it or just using landscaping felt pushed in supported by some crushed water bottles. we will see but my prognosis is AWESOMENESS.​
Slick idea with the lightweight filler in the bottom tub. I was hoping someone would see the opportunity to adapt their old rdwc system into a topdrip system that did not lose crops.
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
Great riff on the chow mix, Dankworth.

I have been wanting to run the chow for quite some time now myself; it is almost eery to here you talk about:

I've been thinking of doing something very similar: take a shallower tote maybe 10 inches tall, cut a hole in the lid, with the intent of positioning a square root brand pot (so roots can come thru more easily) filled with chow into the hole.

Then I'm also considering filling the entire tote with perlite or hydroton, this way you would have lower chamber of humid/moist medium for you roots to expand into. Also debating how high do I put the square root pot? All the way to the bottom of the tote? Or only five inches or so down resting on the perlite or hydroton? And where to put the drain (I think you may be right about as low as possible)?

One thing that has held me back from doing chow mix is not wanting to mix my own; for even a medium sized grow this would be very labor intensive. But now with gold label 80/20 things should be much easier.

I wonder if chow mix could be improved by taking out the coco and replacing it with fytocell or loose fill rockwool? One advantage would be that such a mix could come prepackaged, sealed and sterile eliminating worries about bugs that could come in coco.

Lastly, I gotta mention, I disagree about the need to run this type of system/mix drain to waste. I think the problem withe RDWC comes from the deep water part not the recirculating part. This is based on my having run coco perlite recirculating many times without issue.

Right now I am in coco/perlite draining to waste and using 75 to 90 gallons every day. In chow mix I would be using up even more; just based on experience I think it is unnecessary.

Anyway I can't wait to set this up and see how it preforms, maybe I'll do a grow log.

I like coco because of its cec and the fact that it kicks down K and S, contributing to fewer but larger buds(easier trimming) that taste better.
Haven't played with rockwool much.
You could always recirculate.
Coco strips Ca and Mg, so your runoff will be deficient to a degree.
I get 20% runoff, and my cost for 50 gallons of res is well under $2 these days.
Don't want to reuse that 20% runoff, it is imbalanced.
At this point I bake coco in the oven in turkey bags to eliminate bug risk.
After getting RAs from Canna coco. Fuck that cost me a lot in life.
If you are using 75-90 gals/day, and getting 20% runoff, then you will be using up 60-72 gals a day to support growth. That is lots of growth.
I don't mind losing 20% runoff for the benefits it confers.
Recent evidence has come to light that recirc does, in fact, generate more risk and complication. Backing up my claims. So I feel vindicated.
I wanted to engineer the highest performing system I could that would demonstrate higher reliability than rdwc. All you have to do is lose a large part of 1 crop to get behind on the time/money deal with crops and nute delivery systems.

My gig is for people that want to bang out problem-free rooms of bushes/trees like clockwork. Without stress, bullshit, wrinkles, more grey hair.

RDWC turned my hair grey.

Edit-I filled 27 gal totes w/25 gals of media. I do not want to ever do that again. Bucket systems are it for me.
 
deep buddy

deep buddy

715
93
yep im excited cant see how it wont work out, and the real beuty is if they dont like as you said just use em as a drain , simple. i like coco cause it gives time to not worry about my crops comin the way i want, and i got like 2 pallets of it. this test run will be using second run coco as well. really like to be able to re use, and w, the dtw and rwdc acting as my drain i can flush suoer easy and recharge.:)
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
yep im excited cant see how it wont work out, and the real beuty is if they dont like as you said just use em as a drain , simple. i like coco cause it gives time to not worry about my crops comin the way i want, and i got like 2 pallets of it. this test run will be using second run coco as well. really like to be able to re use, and w, the dtw and rwdc acting as my drain i can flush suoer easy and recharge.:)
yeah, you get it deep buddy. Thanks for seeing the vision.
 
B

bakershredhead

206
18
Hey Dankworth just came upon this thread. I'm about to start another run in a chow mix and saw your use of the ezroot pots. I was doing a drain to waste in 20 gl smart pots, but as you stated that's a lot of medium to fill. I still have all my 27gl totes from the mpb days are you just using a 7gl ezroot pot and setting that into the lid and down into the 27gl tote? I used to do Krusty's buckets (swc) with only 5gl of hydroton with good results so I'm assuming the 7 gl with 70/30 mix should be fine. Are you aerating that little bit of water? I still have my regen and my alita 80 kicking around and a bunch of airstones. This really sounds like the best of both worlds. Sorry one last question. I have been using the cns17 for veg and than switching to an 3part for bloom. I live in a farming community and should be able to get dry salts. Just wondering if your using Jacks Hydro or did you just go the Ag store route.? The ec your running seems really high but if your killing it I guess not. Thanks brother for the info
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
I am using 2 3 gal ez roots frames per tote right now.
Going to run air later today, been fucking w/internet digilux mhs trying to get them to work.
Ag store route, follow my formulas, ratios rock, but adjust EC for your cultivar/environment. Right now I am at 2000+ppms. My bitches eat a lot, they are freaks genetically so I have to run high ppms, and they are not the smallest plants on the block or anything.
Never ran Jack's.
Make yourself up however much, and then dilute as necessary, I also run 1 or more ml/gal of Pro-tekt silicate, and 15 ml/100 gal of Carefree Enzymes Pond Protector Stage 2. This, it seems, eliminated the need for Drip Clean from House and Garden. Hell yeah.

I spend less than $2 for 50 gals of 2000 ppm food and additives, so it will last forever and ever and ever.
CNS-17 veg lacks micros, also lacks enough Mg.
I will be cooling the water at the bottom of the totes for extra insurance.
 
B

bakershredhead

206
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Interesting info dankworth!! Think I'll go with the 7gl one each tote. Don't know if I'll add tge airstones or not. How do you plan on cooloing the water sitting on the bottom? I thought your not recirculating . My room has a 3.5 ton a/c for my 11kw floors concrete so that could keep the water cold enough. Might just stay with the smart pots,still debating
 
monkeymun

monkeymun

755
93
Compressed coco is unlikely to need to be heat treated due to the treatment in receives during compression. Make sure to rinse it well though!
 
dankworth

dankworth

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163
Compressed coco is unlikely to need to be heat treated due to the treatment in receives during compression. Make sure to rinse it well though!
It will sit next to bags of something with RAs or some shit in a warehouse shortly before it gets to you.
 
dankworth

dankworth

1,519
163
Interesting info dankworth!! Think I'll go with the 7gl one each tote. Don't know if I'll add tge airstones or not. How do you plan on cooloing the water sitting on the bottom? I thought your not recirculating . My room has a 3.5 ton a/c for my 11kw floors concrete so that could keep the water cold enough. Might just stay with the smart pots,still debating

I destroy floors in rentals, and bury totes partway into the earth. Geothermal cooling.;)

Reflectix, I talk about it in a longer post somewhere.
Yeah, I will not recirculate a solution for the rest of my growing career. No point in it. I engineered a system that will run correctly if unattended. Recirc systems carry much higher risk.
The plants told me first, then some super secret special agent dossier shit was handed to me recently that corroborated what the plants said.

They feel that exudate is kind of a personal thing, like a lady's business down there sort of thing.
 
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