Synthetic Nitrogen Destroys Soil Carbon, Undermines Soil Health

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jumpincactus

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Bit of trivia on commercial ferts I wasnt aware of. The fertilizer industry really took off after the end of WWII as ammoniacal nitrogen was used in munitions manufacturing. When the war ended they needed to find a way to utilize the already in place facilites from weapons manufacturing to start supplying the US and world with N for cereal crop use.

In my quest to find data that looks in depth at studies on how synthetic fertz may or may not harm soil microbes I stumbled upon this paper,
I have long believed that any present studies found around the interweb are typically funded and performed /contracted by BigAg and more times than not the results are manipulated to BigAgs favor. Here is the link for the entire paper.
https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/jeq/articles/38/6/2295

Here is a teaser from the conclusion of the study.
Snippet for conclusion statement in study below.
The present paper and a companion study by Khan et al. (2007) provide many such data sets that encompass a variety of cereal cropping and management systems in different parts of the world. Overwhelmingly, the evidence is diametrically opposed to the buildup concept and instead corroborates a view elaborated long ago by White (1927) and Albrecht (1938) that fertilizer N depletes soil organic matter by promoting microbial C utilization and N mineralization. An inexorable conclusion can be drawn: The scientific basis for input-intensive cereal production is seriously flawed. The long-term consequences of continued reliance on current production practices will be a decline in soil productivity that increases the need for synthetic N fertilization, threatens food security, and exacerbates environmental degradation.

Here is another great paper that was based of data using the Morrow plots in Illinois in its entirety.

“Fertilizer is good for the father and bad for the sons.”

For all of its ecological baggage, synthetic nitrogen does one good deed for the environment: it helps build carbon in soil. At least, that’s what scientists have assumed for decades.

If that were true, it would count as a major environmental benefit of synthetic N use. At a time of climate chaos and ever-growing global greenhouse gas emissions, anything that helps vast swaths of farmland sponge up carbon would be a stabilizing force. Moreover, carbon-rich soils store nutrients and have the potential to remain fertile over time–a boon for future generations.

The case for synthetic N as a climate stabilizer goes like this. Dousing farm fields with synthetic nitrogen makes plants grow bigger and faster. As plants grow, they pull carbon dioxide from the air. Some of the plant is harvested as crop, but the rest–the residue–stays in the field and ultimately becomes soil. In this way, some of the carbon gobbled up by those N-enhanced plants stays in the ground and out of the atmosphere.

Well, that logic has come under fierce challenge from a team of University of Illinois researchers led by professors Richard Mulvaney, Saeed Khan, and Tim Ellsworth. In two recent papers (see here and here) the trio argues that the net effect of synthetic nitrogen use is to reduce soil’s organic matter content. Why? Because, they posit, nitrogen fertilizer stimulates soil microbes, which feast on organic matter. Over time, the impact of this enhanced microbial appetite outweighs the benefits of more crop residues.

And their analysis gets more alarming. Synthetic nitrogen use, they argue, creates a kind of treadmill effect. As organic matter dissipates, soil’s ability to store organic nitrogen declines. A large amount of nitrogen then leaches away, fouling ground water in the form of nitrates, and entering the atmosphere as nitrous oxide (N2O), a greenhouse gas with some 300 times the heat-trapping power of carbon dioxide. In turn, with its ability to store organic nitrogen compromised, only one thing can help heavily fertilized farmland keep cranking out monster yields: more additions of synthetic N.

The loss of organic matter has other ill effects, the researchers say. Injured soil becomes prone to compaction, which makes it vulnerable to runoff and erosion and limits the growth of stabilizing plant roots. Worse yet, soil has a harder time holding water, making it ever more reliant on irrigation. As water becomes scarcer, this consequence of widespread synthetic N use will become more and more challenging.

In short, “the soil is bleeding,” Mulvaney told me in an interview.

If the Illinois team is correct, synthetic nitrogen’s effect on carbon sequestration swings from being an important ecological advantage to perhaps its gravest liability. Not only would nitrogen fertilizer be contributing to climate change in a way not previously taken into account, but it would also be undermining the long-term productivity of the soil.

mulvaney_team.jpg
Getting their hands dirty: Saeed Khan, Richard Mulvaney, and Tim Ellsworth (l.-r.), in front of the Morrow Plots, University of Illinois.An Old Idea Germinates Anew
While their research bucks decades of received wisdom, the Illinois researchers know they aren’t breaking new ground here. “The fact is, the message we’re delivering in our papers really is a rediscovery of a message that appeared in the ’20s and ’30s,” Mulvaney says. In their latest paper, “Synthetic Nitrogen Fertilizers Deplete Soil Nitrogen: A Global Dilemma for Sustainable Cereal Production,” which appeared last year in the Journal of Environmental Quality, the researchers point to two pre-war academic papers that, according to Mulvaney, “state clearly and simply that synthetic nitrogen fertilizers were promoting the loss of soil carbon and organic nitrogen.”

That idea also appears prominently in The Soil and Health(1947), a founding text of modern organic agriculture. In that book, the British agronomist Sir Albert Howard stated the case clearly:

The use of artificial manure, particularly [synthetic nitrogen] … does untold harm. The presence of additional combined nitrogen in an easily assimilable form stimulates the growth of fungi and other organisms which, in the search for organic matter needed for energy and for building up microbial tissue, use up first the reserve of soil humus and then the more resistant organic matter which cements soil particles.

In other words, synthetic nitrogen degrades soil.

That conclusion has been current in organic-farming circles since Sir Albert’s time. In an essay in the important 2002 anthology Fatal Harvest Reader, the California organic farmer Jason McKenney puts it like this:

Fertilizer application begins the destruction of soil biodiversity by diminishing the role of nitrogen-fixing bacteria and amplifying the role of everything that feeds on nitrogen. These feeders then speed up the decomposition of organic matter and humus. As organic matter decreases, the physical structure of soil changes. With less pore space and less of their sponge-like qualities, soils are less efficient at storing water and air. More irrigation is needed. Water leeches through soils, draining away nutrients that no longer have an effective substrate on which to cling. With less available oxygen the growth of soil microbiology slows, and the intricate ecosystem of biological exchanges breaks down.

Although those ideas flourished in organic-ag circles, they withered to dust among soil scientists at the big research universities. Mulvaney told me that in his academic training — he holds a PhD in soil fertility and chemistry from the University of Illinois, where he is now a professor in the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Sciences — he was never exposed to the idea that synthetic nitrogen degrades soil. “It was completely overlooked,” he says. “I had never heard of it, personally, until we dug into the literature.”

What sets the Illinois scientists apart from other critics of synthetic nitrogen is their provenance. Sir Albert’s denouncement sits in a dusty old tome that’s pretty obscure even within the organic-agriculture world; Jason McKenney is an organic farmer who operates near Berkeley–considered la-la land by mainstream soil scientists. Both can be — and, indeed have been — ignored by policymakers and large-scale farmers. By contrast, Mulvaney and his colleagues are living, credentialed scientists working at the premier research university in one of the nation’s most prodigious corn-producing–and nitrogen-consuming –states.

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Abandon all hope, all fertilizer execs who enter here.The Dirt on Nitrogen, Soil, and Carbon
To come to their conclusions, the researchers studied data from the Morrow plots on the University of Illinois’ Urbana-Champaign campus, which comprise the “the world’s oldest experimental site under continuous corn” cultivation. The Morrow plots were first planted in 1876.

Mulvaney and his collaborators analyzed annual soil-test data in test plots that were planted with three crop rotations: continuous corn, corn-soy, and corn-oats-hay. Some of the plots received moderate amounts of fertilizer application; some received high amounts; and some received no fertilizer at all. The crops in question, particularly corn, generate tremendous amounts of residue. Picture a Midwestern field in high summer, packed with towering corn plants. Only the cobs are harvested; the rest of the plant is left in the field. If synthetic nitrogen use really does promote carbon sequestration, you’d expect these fields to show clear gains in soil organic carbon over time.

Instead, the researchers found, all three systems showed a “net decline occurred in soil [carbon] despite increasingly massive residue [carbon] incorporation.” (They published their findings,“The Myth of Nitrogen Fertilization for Soil Carbon Sequestration,” in the Journal of Environmental Quality in 2007.) In other words, synthetic nitrogen broke down organic matter faster than plant residue could create it.

A particularly stark set of graphs traces soil organic carbon (SOC) in the surface layer of soil in the Morrow plots from 1904 to 2005. SOC rises steadily over the first several decades, when the fields were fertilized with livestock manure. After 1967, when synthetic nitrogen became the fertilizer of choice, SOC steadily drops.

In their other major paper, “Synthetic Nitrogen Fertilizers Deplete Soil Nitrogen: A Global Dilemma for Sustainable Cereal Production” (2009), the authors looked at nitrogen retention in the soil. Given that the test plots received annual lashings of synthetic nitrogen, conventional ag science would predict a buildup of nitrogen. Sure, some nitrogen would be removed with the harvesting of crops, and some would be lost to runoff. But healthy, fertile soil should be capable of storing nitrogen.

In fact, the researchers found just the opposite. “Instead of accumulating,” they wrote, “soil nitrogen declined significantly in every subplot sampled.” The only explanation, they conclude, is that the loss of organic matter depleted the soil’s ability to store nitrogen. The practice of year-after-year fertilization had pushed the Morrow plots onto the chemical treadmill: unable to efficiently store nitrogen, they became reliant on the next fix.

The researchers found similar data from other test plots. “Such evidence is common in the scientific literature but has seldom been acknowledged, perhaps because N fertilizer practices have been predicated largely on short-term economic gain rather than long-term sustainability,” they write, citing some two dozen other studies which mirrored the patterns of the Morrow plots.

The most recent bit of evidence for the Mulvaney team’s nitrogen thesis comes from a team of researchers at Iowa State University and the USDA. In a 2009 paper (PDF), this group looked at data from two long-term experimental sites in Iowa. And they, too, found that soil carbon had declined after decades of synthetic nitrogen applications. They write: “Increases in decay rates with N fertilization apparently offset gains in carbon inputs to the soil in such a way that soil C sequestration was virtually nil in 78% of the systems studied, despite up to 48 years of N additions.”

n_morrow_plots.jpg
Fertile ground for research: the Morrow Plots at the University of Illinois.Photo:brianholsclawSlinging Dirt
Mulvaney and Khan laughed when I asked them what sort of response their work was getting in the soil-science world. “You can bet the fertilizer industry is aware of our work, and they aren’t too pleased,” Mulvaney said. “It’s all about sales, and our conclusions aren’t real good for sales.”

As for the soil-science community, Mulvaney said with a chuckle, “the response is still building.” There has been negative word-of-mouth reaction, he added, but so far, only two responses have been published: a remarkable fact, given that the first paper came out in 2007.

Both published responses fall into the those-data-don’t-say-what-you-say-they category. The first, published as a letter to the editor (PDF) in the Journal of Environmental Quality,came from D. Keith Reid, a soil fertility specialist with the Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs. Reid writes that the Mulvaney team’s conclusion about synthetic nitrogen and soil carbon is “sensational” and “would be incredibly important if it was true.”

Reid acknowledges the drop in soil organic carbon, but argues that it was caused not by synthetic nitrogen itself, but rather by the difference in composition between manure and synthetic nitrogen. Manure is a mix of slow-release organic nitrogen and organic matter; synthetic nitrogen fertilizer is pure, readily available nitrogen. “It is much more likely that the decline in SOC is due to the change in the form of fertilizer than to the rate of fertilizer applied,” Reid writes.

Then he makes a startling concession:

From the evidence presented in this paper, it would be fair to conclude that modern annual crop management systems are associated with declines in SOC concentrations and that increased residue inputs from high nitrogen applications do not mitigate this decline as much as we might hope.

In other words, modern farming — i.e., the kind practiced on nearly all farmland in the United States — destroys soil carbon. (The Mulvaney team’s response to Reid’s critique can be found in the above-linked document.)

The second second critique (PDF) came from a team led by D.S. Powlson at the Department of Soil Science and Centre for Soils and Ecosystem Function at the Rothamsted Research Station in the United Kingdom. Powlson and colleagues attack the Mulvaney team’s contention that synthetic nitrogen depletes the soil’s ability to store nitrogen.

“We propose that the conclusion drawn by Mulvaney et al. (2009), that inorganic N fertilizer causes a decline in soil organic N concentration, is false and not supported by the data from the Morrow Plots or from numerous studies worldwide,” they write.

Then they, too, make a major concession: “the observation of significant soil C and N declines in subsoil layers is interesting and deserves further consideration.” That is, they don’t challenge Mulvaney team’s contention that synthetic nitrogen destroys organic carbon in the subsoil.

In their response (PDF), Mulvaney and his colleagues mount a vigorous defense of their methodology. And then they conclude:

In the modern era of intensified agriculture, soils are generally managed as a commodity to maximize short-term economic gain. Unfortunately, this concept entirely ignores the consequences for a vast array of biotic and abiotic soil processes that aff ect air and water quality and most important, the soil itself.

So who’s right? For now, we know that the Illinois team has presented a robust cache of evidence that turns 50 years of conventional soil science on its head–and an analysis that conventional soil scientists acknowledge is “sensational” and “incredibly important” if true. We also know that their analysis is consistent with the founding principles of organic agriculture: that properly applied manure and nitrogen-fixing cover crops, not synthetic nitrogen, are key to long-term soil health and fertility.

The subject demands more study and fierce debate. But if Mulvaney and his team are correct, the future health of our farmland hinges on a dramatic shift away from reliance on synthetic nitrogen fertilizer.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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There are a number of long running studies that are providing data that is very hard to argue that supports your view sir. Knowing you are now swimming against the tide of returned data results that themselves are insuring the survival of horrid practice is frustrating, but know people like me are with you.
Together we can share this data so people can find it easily. We can break the restrictive diction of academia and uncover the coverups.

this has some awesome data on it


great post thanks for sharing
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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There are a number of long running studies that are providing data that is very hard to argue that supports your view sir. Knowing you are now swimming against the tide of returned data results that themselves are insuring the survival of horrid practice is frustrating, but know people like me are with you.
Together we can share this data so people can find it easily. We can break the restrictive diction of academia and uncover the coverups.

this has some awesome data on it


great post thanks for sharing
Thank you man. I appreciate your opinion, even better since we both see eye 2 eye. :D As for uncovering the cover ups, I cant remember the quoter but a politician once said, " If the American people really knew the truth about things they would hang us all". Or something to that effect. I just call it good ole fashion "denial" And guess what? denial is not a river in Egypt............. LOL ...... Thanks for the videos. I will pass them on to those that will use them. I look forward to seeing you around..... Peace
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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Thank you man. I appreciate your opinion, even better since we both see eye 2 eye. :D As for uncovering the cover ups, I cant remember the quoter but a politician once said, " If the American people really knew the truth about things they would hang us all". Or something to that effect. I just call it good ole fashion "denial" And guess what? denial is not a river in Egypt............. LOL ...... Thanks for the videos. I will pass them on to those that will use them. I look forward to seeing you around..... Peace
likewise, I instantly grabbed your post and shared it with people I knew would also dig its wisdom, I didn't ask you so sorry if that's poor form, but I sense this type of information is better in the wide public domain and I aint running for congress or pushing synths so I guess I don't need to watch my neck quite as closely. This was a good use of my time mate, I say that rarely on forums. - Blessings Eco
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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likewise, I instantly grabbed your post and shared it with people I knew would also dig its wisdom, I didn't ask you so sorry if that's poor form, but I sense this type of information is better in the wide public domain and I aint running for congress or pushing synths so I guess I don't need to watch my neck quite as closely. This was a good use of my time mate, I say that rarely on forums. - Blessings Eco
No friend no worries at all. I feel if I post something in an open public forum it is for all to use. Further, the only way we will ever effect a change in current farming practices is by getting the word/data out so people can make informed decisions.
 
Moto

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Thank you man. I appreciate your opinion, even better since we both see eye 2 eye. :D As for uncovering the cover ups, I cant remember the quoter but a politician once said, " If the American people really knew the truth about things they would hang us all". Or something to that effect. I just call it good ole fashion "denial" And guess what? denial is not a river in Egypt............. LOL ...... Thanks for the videos. I will pass them on to those that will use them. I look forward to seeing you around..... Peace
Lmao I loved that quote... I still use it all the time haha hahah good stuff
 
Seamaiden

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The fertilizer industry really took off after the end of WWII as ammoniacal nitrogen was used in munitions manufacturing. When the war ended they needed to find a way to utilize the already in place facilites from weapons manufacturing to start supplying the US and world with N for cereal crop use.
Ayup, and they've convinced farmers and everyone else that we simply cannot grow enough food without these fertilizers, and without the GM'd seed stock (which, of course, are patented) which is 'best' fed using these synthetic inputs.

I'll stop here.
 
jumpincactus

jumpincactus

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Ayup, and they've convinced farmers and everyone else that we simply cannot grow enough food without these fertilizers, and without the GM'd seed stock (which, of course, are patented) which is 'best' fed using these synthetic inputs.

I'll stop here.
Yea @Seamaiden we do see eye 2 eye. Good to c u hope your feeling better.
 
jumpincactus

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Here is another little tidbit in my library. Enjoy!!!

Reviving a much-cited, little-read sustainable-ag masterpiece

The real Arsenal of Democracy is a fertile soil, the fresh produce of which is the birthright of nations.
Sir Albert Howard, The Soil and Health


albert-howard-wht_180.jpg



Sir Albert Howard.


Around 1900, a 27-year-old British scientist named Albert Howard, a specialist in plant diseases, arrived in Barbados, then a province of the British Empire. His charge was to find cutting-edge cures for diseases that attacked tropical crops like sugar cane, cocoa, bananas, and limes.

To use the terms of the day, his task was to teach natives of the tropics how to grow cash crops for the Mother Country. The method was to be rigorously scientific. He was a “laboratory hermit,” he would later write, “intent on learning more and more about less and less.”

But the “natives,” in turn, had something to teach him. On tours through Barbados and neighboring islands, through “contact with the land itself and the practical men working on it,” a new idea dawned on Howard: that “the most promising method for dealing with plant diseases lay in prevention,” not in after-the-fact treatments.

The insight was radical. Then, as now, conventional science tended to view plant diseases as isolated phenomena in need of a cure. But Howard began to see diseases as part of a broader whole. As quickly as he could, he fled the controlled environment of the lab and concerned himself with how plants thrive or wither in their own context — outside in the dirt, tended by farmers.

soil-and-health-cover_150.jpg

The Soil and HealthThe Soil and Health, by Sir Albert Howard.



Sir Albert Howard would eventually transform the insights he gained from farmers in Barbados and later colonial India into the founding texts of the modern organic-agriculture movement: An Agricultural TestamentAn Agricultural Testament, published in 1940, and The Soil and HealthThe Soil and Health, which came out five years later. Inflamed by his readings of Howard, a young American named J.I. Rodale launched his seminal Organic Farming and Gardening magazine in the early 1940s. That publication popularized Howard’s ideas in the United States, galvanizing the first generation of organic farmers here.

Perhaps appropriately for an author who concerned himself with the ground beneath our feet, Howard — who died in 1947 — is a genuine underground hero. If his influence has been epochal, his books have remained maddeningly obscure, out of print since their initial publication. Until last December, that is, when the University Press of Kentucky — perhaps inspired by Michael Pollan’s excellent work on the history of organic agriculture — brought out a new paperback edition of The Soil and Health. Now we don’t have to hunt down musty, pricey old copies of the book to find out what the fuss was about.

Sixty years after its initial publication, what does The Soil and Health have to teach us? Plenty, it turns out. Howard never foresaw the brand of agriculture he championed as an “alternative” that would occupy a trendy niche. He launched a broad and fundamental critique of industrial agriculture that still resonates — and indeed applies to much of what passes for “organic” agriculture today.

Madmen and Specialists
Howard began his career not long after the triumph of the Industrial Revolution. The rise of mass production had prompted a mass migration from farms to cities, leaving a dearth of rural labor and a surplus of urban mouths to feed. Tasked with the problem of growing more food with less land and labor, scientists in Howard’s time worked to apply industrial techniques to agriculture.

By then, science itself had succumbed to industrialism’s division-of-labor logic. The study of plant disease had become a specialized branch of plant science, itself a subset of biology. The task of growing food could only be studied as a set of separate processes, each with its own subset of problems and solutions.

Soil specialists working at that time had isolated the key elements in soil that nurture plants: nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus. Known as N, K, and P, respectively, these three elements still dominate modern fertilizer production. By learning to synthesize them, soil specialists had “solved” the “problem” of soil fertility.

The process for synthesizing nitrogen, it turned out, also made effective explosives. The same specialists who had industrialized agriculture also, as tensions among European powers mounted in the early 20th century, began to think about industrializing war. During World War I, munitions factories sprouted throughout England, using those fertilizer-making techniques to mass-produce explosives.

Soon thereafter, weapons technology repaid its debt to agriculture. As Howard puts it, “When peace came, some use had to be found for the huge factories [that had been] set up and it was obvious to turn them over to the manufacture of [fertilizer] for the land. This fertilizer began to flood the market.” These technologies made their way over the Atlantic to the United States.

Thus began modern agriculture. No longer dependent on animal manure to replenish soil, farmers could buy ready-made fertilizer from a fledgling chemical industry. For the first time in history, animal husbandry could be separated from the growing of crops — and meat, dairy, egg, and crop production could all be intensified. As production boomed, prices for farm goods dropped, forcing many farmers out of business. Technology had triumphed: fewer and fewer people had to concern themselves with growing food.

But Howard prophesied that the victories of industrial agriculture, whose beginnings he lived to see, would prove short-lived. In its obsession with compartmentalization, modern science had failed to see that the health of each of the earth’s organisms was deeply interconnected. Against the specialists who thought they had “solved” the fertility problem by isolating a few elements, Howard viewed the “whole problem of health in soil, plant, animal, and man as one great subject.”

Artificial fertilizer could replace key elements, but it could not replenish the vibrant, healthy topsoil, or humus, required to grow health-giving food. Humus isn’t an inert substance composed of separable elements, but rather a complex ecosystem teeming with diverse microorganisms. Only by carefully composting animal and plant waste and returning it to the land, he argued, could topsoil be replaced. For Howard, agriculture wasn’t a process sustained by isolated inputs and outputs; rather, it functions as a cycle governed by the “Law of Return”: what comes from the soil must be returned to the soil. Farmers who violate the “Law of Return,” Howard claimed, are “bandits” stealing soil fertility from future generations.

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The real arsenal of democracy.



Looking Back for a Way Forward
For Howard, the ideal laboratory for agriculture lay not in some well-appointed university building, but rather in wild landscapes. As he put it in a celebrated passage in An Agricultural Testament, “Mother earth never attempts to farm without livestock; she always raises mixed crops; great pains are taken to preserve the soil and to prevent erosion; the mixed vegetable and animal wastes are converted into humus; there is no waste; [and] the processes of growth and the processes of decay balance one another.”

Was Howard right? Despite his gloomy pronouncements, industrial agriculture has so far kept many of its promises. Food production has undeniably boomed over the past century.

And yet, the Green Revolution — the concerted effort, begun at about the time of The Soil and Health‘s publication, to spread the benefits of industrial agriculture to the global south — has failed to eradicate world hunger. According to the U.N. Food and Agriculture Organization, more than 800 million people live in a state of undernourishment. And in the United States, where industrial agriculture arguably won its most complete victory,diet-related maladies are reaching epidemic proportions. Howard’s contention that chemical-dependent soil can’t produce healthy food may yet be borne out.

And, of course, industrial agriculture’s environmental liabilitiesare piling up, and could still prove its undoing.

Howard’s books belong on the shelf with other 20th-century classics like Jane Jacobs’ The Death and Life of Great American Cities and E.F. Schumacher’s Small is Beautiful. These works challenge a scientific/bureaucratic establishment that seeks to solve the problems of mass industrialization with more industrialization. In the words of the great German-Jewish writer Walter Benjamin, a contemporary of Howard, they seek to “make whole what has been smashed” by a zeal for specialization. Much-cited and little-heeded, they may yet point a way out of our mounting environmental and social crises.
 
Seamaiden

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Do you have a subscription to Acres, USA? If not, you might want to check it out.
 
jumpincactus

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I get access thru a partners subscription. I started checking them out a while back after you suggested it in one of your thread replies. I forgot to TY so I will now...... Thank you. :D Very good source of information. Much appreciate the hookup. :cool:
 
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Great read jumpin'. Makes me want to use more humic acids with my coco to build up available carbon. I'm a pure synthetic raw salts guy and I know that my coco becomes depleted of carbon when I irrigate through a run. One of the reasons I stopped using amended coco like tupur (perlite for aeration and worm castings) was because after going through an entire harvest with a batch of it- it was clear that the coco had become degraded to the point of ineffective reuse. This is especially true if drain to waste practices are used.
 
Ned Kelly

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I get access thru a partners subscription. I started checking them out a while back after you suggested it in one of your thread replies. I forgot to TY so I will now...... Thank you. :D Very good source of information. Much appreciate the hookup. :cool:
Hi JC where does urea fit into all that . would be the only thing i use close to synthetic n .
 
jumpincactus

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Hi JC where does urea fit into all that . would be the only thing i use close to synthetic n .
Sorry I didnt get back sooner. Girls kept me bizzy yesterday evening.

To answer your question I am on the fence over the deleterious effects of synthetic nitrogen. The research and thread addresses carbon loss in the soils due to specifically ammoniacal nitrogen manufactured with the Haber/ Bosch process and is considered synthetic. The research I am finding uses this type of N as the culprit is robbing the soil of its carbon sources.

Where I get confused is urea based N ferts are considered by some to be an organic source of N as it contains carbon due to C02 used in the process. It confuses the hell outta me as I am no chemistry major. Here is a little ditty that may help you come to your own conclusions. Hopefully someone with more chemistry knowledge will pipe in and help us out. In my mind and understanding of the data there are adtvantages and pros to using urea based N as opposed to the type discussed in the research papers. And again if it is synthezied how can it be considered organic just because it has a carbon molecule in it????

Urea Fertilizer
urea_image001.jpg
Urea is a white crystalline substance with the chemical formula CO(NH2)2; it is highly water soluble and contains 46% nitrogen. Urea is considered an organic compound because it contains carbon. It was the first organic compound ever synthesized by chemists; this was accomplished in the early 1800s.

HOW IS UREA MADE?

Urea is made by reacting carbon dioxide (CO2) with anhydrous ammonia (NH3) under 3,000 psi pressure and at 350° F.

CO2 + 2NH3 > CO(NH2)2 + H2O

The removal of water that occurs during the reaction is referred to as dehydration." The resulting molten mixture is further processed into either prills or granules.

urea_image002.jpg
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GRANULAR UREA AND PRILLED UREA IN TERM OF PHYSICAL APPEARANCE AND APPLICATION?


Granular urea is somewhat larger in size than are prills, but the color will be the same as is the application technique.
Is it related to how the spreader machines/ applicators use bigger granulation, and hand/manually spread use prill /smaller granulation?

IS UREA USE INCREASING?

Urea use is up substantially. In the western U.S. , for example, urea use has increased from 28,000 tons in 1955 to 390,000 in 1989, a 15-fold increase. Urea is the fastest growing dry nitrogen fertilizer used by farmers.

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WHAT ROLE DOES UREA PLAY IN WORLD COMMERCE?


Urea is the major fertilizer traded in international commerce. In the very near future urea is expected to account for more than 50% of the nitrogen fertilizer in world trade. When compared to other dry fertilizers, urea has captured more than 65% of the world trade.

WHY IS THERE SUCH A SHIFT TO UREA IN WORLD TRADE?

Urea has a number of advantages over other nitrogen fertilizers. Urea is safer to ship and handle, it is less corrosive to equipment, it has a higher analysis than any other dry nitrogen fertilizer and it can be used on virtually all crops. Urea can be stored and distributed through conventional systems. It can be applied in many different ways from sophisticated aerial application equipment to a farm spreading urea by hand. Urea is also highly water soluble so it moves readily into the soil. The high analysis means a reduced transportation and application cost per pound of nitrogen.

HOW MUCH NITROGEN DOES UREA CONTAIN?

Urea is 46% nitrogen. This is the highest concentration dry nitrogen fertilizer available.

HOW MUCH NITROGEN DOES UREA SUPPLY?

Urea supplies more nitrogen per ton of product than any other dry fertilizer. It contains 46% nitrogen; this means that each ton of urea supplies 920 lbs. of nitrogen. For comparison, a ton of ammonium sulfate supplies only 420 lbs. of nitrogen and a ton of ammonium nitrate supplies only 670 lbs. of nitrogen. The higher nitrogen content means lower transportation and application costs per pound of nitrogen.

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DOES UREA "TIE-UP" IN THE SOIL?


Urea itself is very mobile because it is a neutral molecule; it has no charge and is not attracted to soil particles. This means it can rapidly move into the soil following irrigation or rain. Once in the soil, however, it is rapidly converted into ammonic nitrogen, which is attracted to the soil particles, thus preventing leaching loss.

WHAT IS BIURET?

Biuret is formed during the manufacturing of urea. It is two urea molecules joined together accompanied by the removal of an ammonia molecule. Biuret is of little concern for soil-applied nitrogen fertilizers, but it can be toxic when nitrogen fertilizers containing biuret are foliar-applied to sensitive crops such as citrus or pineapple.

WHAT IS THE BEST NITROGEN FERTILIZER FOR AERIAL APPLICATIONS?

Urea is the best source of nitrogen for aerial application. Because urea has the highest analysis (46% nitrogen), it has the lowest application cost per pound of nitrogen. The uniform area granules mean that applications can be accurately calibrated and evenly spread. Urea can be practically dust-free and, under most conditions, it does not absorb moisture and cake up.

HOW DOES UREA COMPARE WITH AMMONIUM SULFATE?

Urea has over twice as much nitrogen as does ammonium sulfate; 46% versus 21%. That means there is more than twice as much nitrogen as per ton of fertilizer. In addition, urea is less acid forming, is more water soluble and less corrosive. Ammonium sulfate does supply sulfur, but it is usually less expensive to apply urea and a sulfur material such as elemental sulfur.

HOW DOES UREA COMPARE WITH AMMONIUM NITRATE?

Urea contains about one-third more nitrogen, is less corrosive than ammonium nitrate and is less prone to caking. In addition, all the nitrogen is in the ammonic form and, until nitrification occurs, it is less subject to leaching or de-nitrification than the nitrate portion of the ammonium nitrate.

IS THE NITROGEN IN UREA DIFFERENT FROM NITROGEN IN "ORGANIC FERTILIZERS" IN TERMS OF PLANT NUTRITION?

No; the ammonic nitrogen or nitrate nitrogen taken up by plants is chemically identical regardless of the source. Nitrate or ammonium that results from urea application is indistinguishable from the nitrate or ammonium that results from manure application. A plant utilizes inorganic ions, and the source of these nutrients is irrelevant to either the yield or quality of the fruit, grain, or vegetative matter produced by the plant.
 
Ned Kelly

Ned Kelly

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Sorry I didnt get back sooner. Girls kept me bizzy yesterday evening.

To answer your question I am on the fence over the deleterious effects of synthetic nitrogen. The research and thread addresses carbon loss in the soils due to specifically ammoniacal nitrogen manufactured with the Haber/ Bosch process and is considered synthetic. The research I am finding uses this type of N as the culprit is robbing the soil of its carbon sources.

Where I get confused is urea based N ferts are considered by some to be an organic source of N as it contains carbon due to C02 used in the process. It confuses the hell outta me as I am no chemistry major. Here is a little ditty that may help you come to your own conclusions. Hopefully someone with more chemistry knowledge will pipe in and help us out. In my mind and understanding of the data there are adtvantages and pros to using urea based N as opposed to the type discussed in the research papers. And again if it is synthezied how can it be considered organic just because it has a carbon molecule in it????

Urea Fertilizer
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Urea is a white crystalline substance with the chemical formula CO(NH2)2; it is highly water soluble and contains 46% nitrogen. Urea is considered an organic compound because it contains carbon. It was the first organic compound ever synthesized by chemists; this was accomplished in the early 1800s.

HOW IS UREA MADE?

Urea is made by reacting carbon dioxide (CO2) with anhydrous ammonia (NH3) under 3,000 psi pressure and at 350° F.

CO2 + 2NH3 > CO(NH2)2 + H2O

The removal of water that occurs during the reaction is referred to as dehydration." The resulting molten mixture is further processed into either prills or granules.

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WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GRANULAR UREA AND PRILLED UREA IN TERM OF PHYSICAL APPEARANCE AND APPLICATION?

Granular urea is somewhat larger in size than are prills, but the color will be the same as is the application technique.
Is it related to how the spreader machines/ applicators use bigger granulation, and hand/manually spread use prill /smaller granulation?

IS UREA USE INCREASING?

Urea use is up substantially. In the western U.S. , for example, urea use has increased from 28,000 tons in 1955 to 390,000 in 1989, a 15-fold increase. Urea is the fastest growing dry nitrogen fertilizer used by farmers.

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WHAT ROLE DOES UREA PLAY IN WORLD COMMERCE?

Urea is the major fertilizer traded in international commerce. In the very near future urea is expected to account for more than 50% of the nitrogen fertilizer in world trade. When compared to other dry fertilizers, urea has captured more than 65% of the world trade.

WHY IS THERE SUCH A SHIFT TO UREA IN WORLD TRADE?

Urea has a number of advantages over other nitrogen fertilizers. Urea is safer to ship and handle, it is less corrosive to equipment, it has a higher analysis than any other dry nitrogen fertilizer and it can be used on virtually all crops. Urea can be stored and distributed through conventional systems. It can be applied in many different ways from sophisticated aerial application equipment to a farm spreading urea by hand. Urea is also highly water soluble so it moves readily into the soil. The high analysis means a reduced transportation and application cost per pound of nitrogen.

HOW MUCH NITROGEN DOES UREA CONTAIN?

Urea is 46% nitrogen. This is the highest concentration dry nitrogen fertilizer available.

HOW MUCH NITROGEN DOES UREA SUPPLY?

Urea supplies more nitrogen per ton of product than any other dry fertilizer. It contains 46% nitrogen; this means that each ton of urea supplies 920 lbs. of nitrogen. For comparison, a ton of ammonium sulfate supplies only 420 lbs. of nitrogen and a ton of ammonium nitrate supplies only 670 lbs. of nitrogen. The higher nitrogen content means lower transportation and application costs per pound of nitrogen.

urea_image004.jpg
DOES UREA "TIE-UP" IN THE SOIL?

Urea itself is very mobile because it is a neutral molecule; it has no charge and is not attracted to soil particles. This means it can rapidly move into the soil following irrigation or rain. Once in the soil, however, it is rapidly converted into ammonic nitrogen, which is attracted to the soil particles, thus preventing leaching loss.

WHAT IS BIURET?

Biuret is formed during the manufacturing of urea. It is two urea molecules joined together accompanied by the removal of an ammonia molecule. Biuret is of little concern for soil-applied nitrogen fertilizers, but it can be toxic when nitrogen fertilizers containing biuret are foliar-applied to sensitive crops such as citrus or pineapple.

WHAT IS THE BEST NITROGEN FERTILIZER FOR AERIAL APPLICATIONS?

Urea is the best source of nitrogen for aerial application. Because urea has the highest analysis (46% nitrogen), it has the lowest application cost per pound of nitrogen. The uniform area granules mean that applications can be accurately calibrated and evenly spread. Urea can be practically dust-free and, under most conditions, it does not absorb moisture and cake up.

HOW DOES UREA COMPARE WITH AMMONIUM SULFATE?

Urea has over twice as much nitrogen as does ammonium sulfate; 46% versus 21%. That means there is more than twice as much nitrogen as per ton of fertilizer. In addition, urea is less acid forming, is more water soluble and less corrosive. Ammonium sulfate does supply sulfur, but it is usually less expensive to apply urea and a sulfur material such as elemental sulfur.

HOW DOES UREA COMPARE WITH AMMONIUM NITRATE?

Urea contains about one-third more nitrogen, is less corrosive than ammonium nitrate and is less prone to caking. In addition, all the nitrogen is in the ammonic form and, until nitrification occurs, it is less subject to leaching or de-nitrification than the nitrate portion of the ammonium nitrate.

IS THE NITROGEN IN UREA DIFFERENT FROM NITROGEN IN "ORGANIC FERTILIZERS" IN TERMS OF PLANT NUTRITION?

No; the ammonic nitrogen or nitrate nitrogen taken up by plants is chemically identical regardless of the source. Nitrate or ammonium that results from urea application is indistinguishable from the nitrate or ammonium that results from manure application. A plant utilizes inorganic ions, and the source of these nutrients is irrelevant to either the yield or quality of the fruit, grain, or vegetative matter produced by the plant.
Thanks cactus . Yes urea is obviously manufactured so may a stretch for organic just maybe less nasty than other synth n Mr rox is the culprit that started my interest in urea . Lol
 
MGRox

MGRox

597
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@Ned Kelly shoot I didn't figure anyone would be crazy enough to try it out. :p You'll have to update me on what you think. So your doing full organic with urea supplement then?

I guess with your question. Urea you "Buy" is synthetic. Urea in your pee is organic. The difference?.......perception.

In regards to the OP though, I'm not at all surprised. There is no big argument that synthetic fertz will out yield organic, on an in general basis. So, I do not at all find it surprising that it is exhausting other soil web components (in part) for this to occur. It is also not surprising that "throwing a few salts in" does not correct the issue either haha.

Suppose personally I understand that we need synthetics to keep up with global production / demand. Though I hate that we don't have a system to reparate the soils. Seems as though if every 10 years or so you were to leave an area to repair (while importing organics) for 1-2 years; it may end up being sustainable that way.
 
Ned Kelly

Ned Kelly

1,811
263
@Ned Kelly shoot I didn't figure anyone would be crazy enough to try it out. :p You'll have to update me on what you think. So your doing full organic with urea supplement then?

I guess with your question. Urea you "Buy" is synthetic. Urea in your pee is organic. The difference?.......perception.

In regards to the OP though, I'm not at all surprised. There is no big argument that synthetic fertz will out yield organic, on an in general basis. So, I do not at all find it surprising that it is exhausting other soil web components (in part) for this to occur. It is also not surprising that "throwing a few salts in" does not correct the issue either haha.

Suppose personally I understand that we need synthetics to keep up with global production / demand. Though I hate that we don't have a system to reparate the soils. Seems as though if every 10 years or so you were to leave an area to repair (while importing organics) for 1-2 years; it may end up being sustainable that way.
yeah bro after your posts in nelz threads i let it bounce around in thr grey matter and all made sense so give it a try , nothing ventured nothing gained .lol
 
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