Tea Recipe

Dunge · Aug 15, 2012

click80 said:
One thing I don't like though is I used the Alfalfa Tea too long. Should have listened to my inner voice. The buds are super fuel smelling this time, compared to hydro, but they are also a little airy.

Based on one data point?
What is it about late flower alfalfa tea that made your buds 'airy'?

Capulator · Aug 15, 2012

Dunge said:
Based on one data point?
What is it about late flower alfalfa tea that made your buds 'airy'?

Yeah I am interested in this as well, considering the supposed natural tricontanol in alfalfa is the secret ingredient of all the new bloom boosters on the market. How did you come to this conclusion Click?

click80 · Aug 15, 2012

I am making it an educated guess but this is also based on others opinions that I have read about on here in other threads. If it is the Alfalfa tea then I would guess that the triacontanol might amp up vegetative growth (elongation) too much rather than reproductive growth.

Just an unscientific opinion. I have been growing this particular strain for three years and have run into this before when I used Superthrive late in flower. A lot of people feel that Superthrive's main claim to fame is Triacontanol. I will find out on the next batches I am putting in.

It also could be the strength on my Alfalfa tea. I make mine separate from the compost tea. Keeps foaming down.

Btw, here is a link to Black Earth where I order my humic from. You will have to browse around a little but there is a place on here to email and ask for a sampler pack. The liquid humic and fulvic are great as foliar sprays and for root drenches.

http://www.blackearth.com/

click80 · Aug 15, 2012

Here are a couple afterthoughts.... I will post a couple abstracts ya'll can read. I think that Triacontanol is much more predictable when used alone vs in combination with other nutrients.

Triacontanol is known to have an optimal effect at a certain dosage and in some studies yields are actually reduced when these dosage rates are exceeded.

Tria also known to have a better effect with certain metal ions present. This has nothing to do with airy buds just that Triacontanol can produce better results with different adjuncts present.

Tria increases nutrient uptake. It could be that the higher Nitrogen present in Alfalfa tea (mine particularly) when applied later in flower could have resulted in a more airy bud. That's a wild assed guess, but I do think I have read that higher N in flower is not desired. Superthrive has urea in it and if it does have TRIA in it then possible this could explain the other time I got airy buds when using Superthrive late in flower if in fact this had anything to do with it.

some links....

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/triacontanol-what-it-is-where-to-find-it.47363/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423809001319
Abstract
Hyacinth bean (Lablab purpureus L.) serves as a good source of vegetable proteins in human diet, and its seeds and pods contain as much as 20–28% protein. The bean contains tyrosinase enzyme, which has potential use for the treatment of hypertension. However, plant biological yield appears to be comparatively low in Aligarh soil in this region of India (Western Uttar Pradesh). A hypothesis was designed to address whether foliar application of triacontanol (TRIA) could enhance the crop productivity as well as crop quality. TRIA is known to be a potent plant growth promoting substance for many agricultural and horticultural crops. The hyacinth bean plants grown in soil containing pots, were sprayed with five concentrations of TRIA (10−0(Control), 10−8, 10−7, 10−6 and 10−5 M) at 15-day intervals. The plant fresh and dry weights, leaf-area, number and dry weight of nodules per plant, total chlorophyll and carotenoid content, nitrate reductase activity, carbonic anhydrase activity, nodule-nitrogen content, leghemoglobin content and leaf N, P, K and Ca contents were analyzed at 60, 90 and 120 days after sowing (DAS). Net photosynthetic rate, transpiration rate and stomatal conductance were measured only at 90 DAS. The protein content plus carbohydrate and tyrosinase activity were analyzed in the seeds. Foliar spray of 10−6 M TRIA significantly stimulated most of the studied attributes. At the highest concentration (10−5 M TRIA), values of all attributes were significantly decreased at all three stages. For example, 10−6 M TRIA increased seed-yield and -protein content by 56.3 and 14.5%, respectively when compared to unsprayed plants. TRIA also stimulated the activity of tyrosinase when compared to the control plants.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/h716571376354053/
Abstract
The influence of triacontanol in a form of Tomatex preparation on basic indices of chlorophyll fluorescence in tomato leaves (Delfina cv.), yield of fruits, and dry matter content in fruits was evaluated in a pot experiment situated in vegetation hall in 1999. Tomatex was applied into roots at seedling stage (6–7 leaves) or at the stage of seedling and flowering of the 2nd inflorescence bunch. Plants were given by 0.3, 3.0, and 30 µg triacontanol per pot at a single dosage. Results obtained have shown that triacontanol regardless of the dose applied, significantly increased the maximal efficiency of PSII photochemistry in the dark (Fv/Fm), the efficiency of excitation capture by open PSII reaction centers (Fv’/Fm’), the actual quantum yield of PSII electron transport in the light-adapted state (ΦPSII), the photochemical quenching coefficient (Qp). However, nonphotochemical quenching coefficient (Qn) and non-radiative dissipation (NPQ) were decreased. Plants treated with triacontanol at the doses of 0.3 and 3.0 µg had significantly higher yields of fruits than control. No differences were found between plants treated once and twice with the growth regulator. Triacontanol did not show univocal effects on dry matter content in fruits either.
http://mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/foliage/resrpts/rh_95_2.htm
Effects of Nitrogen and Potassium Fertilization Ratios on Growth and Flowering of Three Anthurium Hybrids

Conclusions
Data presented indicate that the lower N and K fertilizer rates tested produced the highest quality plants. Not only was plant appearance improved at the lower fertilizer levels, but also flowering was much better, with increases of 59 to 85 %, depending on cultivar. Lack of early flowering, which lengthens crop turnover time, has been somewhat of a problem with many of the anthurium pot plant cultivars under development. Results from this experiment suggest the flowering problem may possibly be due in part to use of excessive levels of fertilizer, particularly nitrogen. Additional research is needed on these cultivars but based on data presented here, use of 900-1200 lb N/A/yr from a 1-1-1ratio fertilizer such as a liquid 20-20-20 or slow release 14-14-14 Osmocote (The Scotts Company, 665- Grantway, Allentown, PA 18106) would be suggested.

Abstract

Treatment of Chlamydomonas reinhardtii cells, cultured at 5% CO2, with 1 to 1000 micrograms triacontanol (TRIA) per liter resulted in 21 to 35% increases in cell density, 7 to 31% increases in total chlorophyll, and 20 to 100% increases in photosynthetic CO2assimilation. The increase in CO2 fixation with TRIA treatment occurred before, and was independent of, increases in total chlorophyll or cell number. Chlamydomonas cells responded to a broad range of TRIA concentrations that were at least one order of magnitude above the optimum concentration established for higher plants. The necessity for larger concentrations of TRIA may be due to destabilizing effects of Ca2+ and K+present in the Chlamydomonas growth medium. These ions caused flocculation of the colloidally dispersed TRIA in apparent competition with binding of [14C]TRIA toChlamydomonas cells. Octacosanol inhibited the effect of TRIA on photosynthetic CO2assimilation. TRIA treatment did not alter the distribution of 14C-label among photosynthetic products. The effect of TRIA on photosynthetic CO2 assimilation increased with time after treatment up to 3 days. Chlamydomonas cells that had been grown at low-CO2 (air) did not respond to TRIA, and transfer of high-CO2 (5%) grown cells that had responded to TRIA to a low-CO2 atmosphere resulted in a loss of the effect of TRIA. The effect of pH on photosynthetic CO2 assimilation indicated that CO2 is probably the species of inorganic carbon utilized by control and TRIA-treatedChlamydomonas cells.

squiggly · Aug 15, 2012

I can add some credence to this. Triacontanol does cause more stretch and more airy bud growth if it is used too late into flower according to my research. Alfalfa is a fucking amazing addition to a nute regimen in veg for the same reason it is not so good in flower. Were it me I'd phase it out at least a few days before flipping over to control initial stretch.

If you're going to add in flower, no later than 2 week in imo--and even that's too far for me because this stuff tends to stick around for awhile in the plant (and the enzymes and such which it tells the plant to produce stick around for awhile as well once the hormone message is received).

TLDR:

Alfalfa contains high concentrations of triacontanol in nearly all of its incarnations--and this is a bad supplement for a flowering cannabis plant in terms of bud structure and stretch.

Capulator · Aug 15, 2012

I love the fact that you come in with a substantial argument. Time for more studying. I actually have pure tricontanol I have been thinking abotu messing around with, but not until I change my room up. I am going to be utilizing 6 separate trays on 6 different reservoirs, so I can start distinguishing things that work and things that dont.

Capulator · Aug 15, 2012

squiggly said:
I can add some credence to this. Triacontanol does cause more stretch and more airy bud growth if it is used too late into flower according to my research. Alfalfa is a fucking amazing addition to a nute regimen in veg for the same reason it is not so good in flower. Were it me I'd phase it out at least a few days before flipping over to control initial stretch.

If you're going to add in flower, no later than 2 week in imo--and even that's too far for me because this stuff tends to stick around for awhile in the plant (and the enzymes and such which it tells the plant to produce stick around for awhile as well once the hormone message is received).

TLDR:

Alfalfa contains high concentrations of triacontanol in nearly all of its incarnations--and this is a bad supplement for a flowering cannabis plant in terms of bud structure and stretch.

I guess I need to amend the tea recipe to reflect this .

cctt · Aug 15, 2012

I've followed GH's schedule including their FloraBlend for a while (contains alfalfa) - it cuts it out after the third week of flowering. I'd always wondered what the reasoning was behind this. Thanks for the info.

click80 · Aug 15, 2012

I don't feel that Triacontanol alone can be said to positively cause loose buds. I think that's up for debate. It's pretty much a given that Snowstorm has Triacontanol in it and a lot of people love the stuff, even when used all the way through flower, and insist that it not only increases resin but gives harder buds. A lot of people also think it has an added enzyme in it and that is why you can have bacterial blooms in Reservoir solutions.

I have heard about Alfalfa tea (and SuperThrive) causing loose bud structure from enough people on this forum that my tea was the first culprit that came to mind. Even though this is anecdotal, I have to give it some credence. Again this is why the tea came to mind first.

Considering all the different strains we have I don't even think you can rule out that it could be that certain strains might be more susceptible to airiness than others????

click80 · Aug 15, 2012

Finally found this in my bookmarks. I am including a link to the website I found this from. I originally followed a link from an orchid board to get this info on nutrient composition of Alfalfa. This is what originally, well plus Sea Maiden, alerted me that although Alfalfa is relatively low in N, when made into a tea it could turn into a soluble fast acting N source.

If you follow the link there are numerous links you can follow off the DavesGarden webpage this is from:

http://davesgarden.com/guides/terms/go/2294/#b

Alfalfa Tea, the natural flower booster by Trevor InkpenDry alfalfa is a good slow-release source of nitrogen, but since you will be "digesting" it by letting it ferment in water, the resulting tea is a soluable, fast-acting nitrogen source. Also, by making alfalfa (or manure) tea, you don't have to worry about weed seeds sprouting from the fertilizer.Orchid and rose growers use alfalfa tea as a foliar spray. If you grow delphiniums and irises, they also love alfalfa tea. Some iris growers mulch their beds with alfalfa meal. And an additional benefit for delphiniums is that the Epsom salts in the tea help to ward off slugs and snails. In addition to nitrogen, alfalfa supplies enzymes and trace elements that are not present in chemical nitrogen fertilizers. Alfalfa ingredients: Triacontanol (growth stimulant) Vitamin A (high concentration) Thiamine Riboflavin Pantothenic Acid Niacin Pyridoxine Choline Bentaine Folic Acid co-enzymes Crude proteins (16 - 25% in dry alfalfa) Amino acids (% in alfalfa meal). Tryptophan, 0.3 % Aspartic Acid, 2.3% Threonine, 1.0 % Serine, 1.0% Glutamic Acid, 2.7% Proline, 1.2% Glycine, 1.1% Alanine, 1.1% Cystine, 0.2% Valine, 1.0% Methionine, 0.3% Isoleucine, 0.8% Leucine, 1.6% Tyrosine, 0.5% Phenylalanine, 1.0% Histidine, 0.4% Lysine, Total, 1.1% Arginine, 1.1% Minerals (contained in dry alfalfa) Nitrogen 3.75-5.5 % Potassium .75 - 3.5 % Phosphorus .3 - .7% Calcium 1 - 2 % Magnesium .30 - 1 % Sulphur .2 - .5 % Manganese 30-200 ppm Iron 20-250 ppm Boron 20-80 ppm Copper 5-20 ppm Zinc 20-70 ppm

squiggly · Aug 15, 2012

click80 said:
Considering all the different strains we have I don't even think you can rule out that it could be that certain strains might be more susceptible to airiness than others????

That's certainly possible--and probable even I'd say.

Unfortunately when I was doing most of this research I was trying to convince myself--so I haven't kept good mental records of all the info I'd learned (because I had satisfactorily convinced myself after a few hours of intense reading some studies/articles).

I think I may have shared a bit of what I was finding here on the farm I'll see if I can dig it up.

The best I can say I had convinced myself pretty thoroughly that I wanted to knock out the triacontanol from flowering. I feel like there was one or another of the (biochemical) flowering processes that I was pretty sure this stuff would interfere with and I didn't like it.

I'll do my best to dig up what I found with the time I've got.

EDIT: The post I had all the info on here at the farm was lost when the site moved--unfortunately I don't have the time to go back through currently. I'll come back to this thread when I get a chance to check it out.

click80 · Aug 15, 2012

squiggly said:
That's certainly possible--and probable even I'd say.

Unfortunately when I was doing most of this research I was trying to convince myself--so I haven't kept good mental records of all the info I'd learned (because I had satisfactorily convinced myself after a few hours of intense reading some studies/articles).

I think I may have shared a bit of what I was finding here on the farm I'll see if I can dig it up.

The best I can say I had convinced myself pretty thoroughly that I wanted to knock out the triacontanol from flowering. I feel like there was one or another of the (biochemical) flowering processes that I was pretty sure this stuff would interfere with and I didn't like it.

I'll do my best to dig up what I found with the time I've got.

EDIT: The post I had all the info on here at the farm was lost when the site moved--unfortunately I don't have the time to go back through currently. I'll come back to this thread when I get a chance to check it out.

Squiggly if you look back a little at my post, not the one I just did but either one or two back, the one with the links in it, the first link is to a thread on here that contains a post from you with either one or two links in it.

squiggly · Aug 15, 2012

That's the one!! Weird I couldn't find it.

Below is sort of where I'm coming from with this.

It was also found that TRIA down regulated several stress and wounding response genes. Now I think it's important that we're careful here. It is commonly understood that terpenes (and ultimately THC) are produced as part of the plants defense system. It has been demonstrated through various methods (although not conclusively) that stressing a cannabis plant can be very good for terpene production (so long as you to don't stress it into a hermaphrodite).

It may be that there is an optimal time to add TRIA given the above data. You perhaps wouldn't want it's effects to be lingering in late flowering--but it could be useful to have around in veg and during early flower. Length of effect would need to be determined to put a nail on a number--my guess is that it's somewhere in the 2-3 week range.

A dose in early veg followed by a dose just before the flip would be a good place to start in my opinion--but again it's important to decide carefully what the dose will be.

As I said in that thread just before this quote--these are not the only genes being flipped on. There are many small genes which will also be downstream from the genes discussed here, and those are the ones which worry me. I believe when I studied further on my own I found that essentially the genes being activated were ones which were naturally activated in a veg stage and dormant in a flowering stage--that, coupled with what I found to be an almost guaranteed negative effect on terpene production also caused by triacontanol, was enough for me to feel confident that it's not an optimal supplement in flower.

Is it worth testing more? Certainly--plants are fuckin' weird. For me, though--I'd be experimenting with this, not growing with it [in flower].

Cuervo Porrelli · Aug 22, 2012

CAP, I'm using soil and organic nutes to feed my plants. Are you saying I only need to get the NUTE PACK of CAP's Bennies to have better growth? I'm not sure what parts of these packs I really need for my soil grow.

Cuervo Porrelli · Aug 22, 2012

Btw, I am using FF O.F. soil mix Σ G.H. Organic Bio series

click80 · Aug 22, 2012

I wonder how aspirin and/or willow water would work to induce and sustain SAR during flowering? I used it a few times but I didn't really follow up on it. Might try it on one of my next batches going in this week.

I am also going to run Spurr's nute profile in conjunction with ACT. Anyone familiar with it that has used it throughout flower?

click80 · Aug 22, 2012

Cuervo Porrelli said:
CAP, I'm using soil and organic nutes to feed my plants. Are you saying I only need to get the NUTE PACK of CAP's Bennies to have better growth? I'm not sure what parts of these packs I really need for my soil grow.

I would use all three for maximun benefits.

Capulator · Aug 23, 2012

Cuervo Porrelli said:
CAP, I'm using soil and organic nutes to feed my plants. Are you saying I only need to get the NUTE PACK of CAP's Bennies to have better growth? I'm not sure what parts of these packs I really need for my soil grow.

In soil I woudl get all three packs. The foliar pack will work as a bug preventative. The root pack will protect roots from disease. The nute pack will assist in nutrient uptake, and will allow you to use less nutes.

Capulator · Aug 23, 2012

click80 said:
I wonder how aspirin and/or willow water would work to induce and sustain SAR during flowering? I used it a few times but I didn't really follow up on it. Might try it on one of my next batches going in this week.

I am also going to run Spurr's nute profile in conjunction with ACT. Anyone familiar with it that has used it throughout flower?

I had been wanting to try SPURRS formula for a while, but never got through his video. I hear it is an excellent formula though.

click80 · Aug 23, 2012

I didn't know there was a video. I downloaded the chart from one of the threads on here. DS had posted a link in one of his threads. I have used it for awhile in hydro and it did great. I am pretty sure I have been told it does great in soil too. I am just going to monitor runoff and be careful before i dial it up all the way.

Tea Recipe

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cctt

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