turtlehash
- 14
- 1
what is the best to flush with. i heard to use sugar water or coconut water. so whats the deal on those
or should i use just water
or should i use just water
Seamaiden
Living dead girl
- 23,596
- 638
I advise just using plain water, and not actually flushing several times the pot volume. Just give the plant plain water the last two weeks or so. You can use sugar (molasses is very popular), but it's best used in conjunction with microbes so you can get a nice, end of season fade. If no microbes, then nothing will fix more N to make it unavailable to the plant.
I remember the Misfits (barely)! :)
Others will probably advise differently.
I remember the Misfits (barely)! :)
Others will probably advise differently.
420Gator
- 1,281
- 83
plain ro water the last 2-4 weeks, my best tasting harvest came from a month long flush. I agree with SM I don't use any more water than on a normal feeding
woodsmaneh
- 1,724
- 263
For one thing, the most common way that growers flush their crops is by giving their crops water that has no nutrients in it. But this doesn't fully cleanse your crops. It only starves your plants so they lose vigorous floral growth and resin percentages just before harvest.
:)
Here is the summery first for those that have a short attention span.
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfeed and improper drying/curing.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the materialization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
The claim only ‘chemical’ fertilized plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic fertilized plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When plant roots absorb water and minerals, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans-located through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be Trans-located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfeed and improper drying/curing.
:)
Here is the summery first for those that have a short attention span.
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfeed and improper drying/curing.
Nutrient fundamentals and uptake:
A good read about plant nutrition can be found
Until recently it was common thought that all nutrients are absorbed by plant roots as ions of mineral elements. However in newer studies more and more evidence emerged that additionally plant roots are capable of taking up complex organic molecules like amino acids directly thus bypassing the materialization process.
The major nutrient uptake processes are:
1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.
2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.
http://www.biol.sc.edu/courses/bio102/f99-3637.html
The claim only ‘chemical’ fertilized plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic fertilized plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavour of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.
3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.
Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:
Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulphur is part of amino acids and proteins.
Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.
Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is needed for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.
http://www.sidwell.edu
You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.
Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:
Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When plant roots absorb water and minerals, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.
The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.
http://www.sirinet.net
Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.
1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.
2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.
http://generalhorticulture.tamu.edu
Storage organelles:
Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.
http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf
Translocation:
Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be trans-located through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be Trans-located and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.
Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the root zone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.
You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don’t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.
Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.
For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.
Sulphur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.
http://muextension.missouri.edu
Summary:
Pre-harvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.
The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with pre-harvest flushing.
Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on un-flushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfeed and improper drying/curing.
woodsmaneh
- 1,724
- 263
So you grow your plants with food for 4 weeks than starve them for 4 weeks and that's you best tasting crop yet WTF! I'm sorry but this is some of the worst advice I have seen on flushing. :eek: Try just flushing for 10 days instead of 4 weeks and you will double your yield.
woodsmaneh
- 1,724
- 263
Just use water, not RO, no sugar and maybe 20% nutrients so you don't starve them.
squiggly
- 3,277
- 263
While I admit I didn't expect to see it here--woodsmaneh has pretty much covered the bases there.
I can't say myself whether or not flushing at the end of harvest has a negative effect--but it certainly could, and woodsmaneh isn't far off at all from the reasoning.
I've got my questions in terms of what actual damage might be done here, but I imagine that would depend on a whole slew of factors.
For myself:
I prefer to keep an active microherd going and to simply feed them as a flush.
This amounts to a weak nutrient solution (probably 10% strength as compared with last feeding of the plant itself) + some molasses. This has always yielded the best results for me. The way I conceptualize it is that the little guys provide the least amount of food possible without actually letting the plant fall deep into deficiency.
I have taken a plant start ---->finish by only feeding teas before, and if that experiment taught me anything it taught me that the microherd provides just about half the strength of nutriment if applied sans any other nutrients. Plants I grew under these conditions yielded half the weight (similar potency) and grew to half the size. Despite never showing a true deficiency, it would obvious that the envelope wasn't being pushed at all :)
I can't say myself whether or not flushing at the end of harvest has a negative effect--but it certainly could, and woodsmaneh isn't far off at all from the reasoning.
I've got my questions in terms of what actual damage might be done here, but I imagine that would depend on a whole slew of factors.
For myself:
I prefer to keep an active microherd going and to simply feed them as a flush.
This amounts to a weak nutrient solution (probably 10% strength as compared with last feeding of the plant itself) + some molasses. This has always yielded the best results for me. The way I conceptualize it is that the little guys provide the least amount of food possible without actually letting the plant fall deep into deficiency.
I have taken a plant start ---->finish by only feeding teas before, and if that experiment taught me anything it taught me that the microherd provides just about half the strength of nutriment if applied sans any other nutrients. Plants I grew under these conditions yielded half the weight (similar potency) and grew to half the size. Despite never showing a true deficiency, it would obvious that the envelope wasn't being pushed at all :)
caveman4.20
- 5,969
- 313
I like to think some plants can and do you those leaves like reservoirs and not sinks and those immobile nutrients can still be used and mobilized by bacteria and fungus on foliage IME
caveman4.20
- 5,969
- 313
Squiggly straight up for me in my grow some plants take potency with them into max yields and some don't some leave potency behind with flavor when pushed into max yields.....in my experience
When plants are pushed for max yields they are cut down early as well to not loose precious time fwiw I don't expect a plant to give the same experience when it's pushed to the limits or envelope then when it's allowed to grow at its own rate
Here's a plant that received little to no liquid food the last month and buds still green although Rees obviously nothing in the sinks
When plants are pushed for max yields they are cut down early as well to not loose precious time fwiw I don't expect a plant to give the same experience when it's pushed to the limits or envelope then when it's allowed to grow at its own rate
Here's a plant that received little to no liquid food the last month and buds still green although Rees obviously nothing in the sinks
caveman4.20
- 5,969
- 313
I literally watch the yellow start at tips and continues toward buds and I cut down where it's at above and by the time the cure is done all that's left is a lighter shade of green but never yellow
420Gator
- 1,281
- 83
well fuck you then. lol jk bro I grow mainly sativas at 12+ weeks and in soil so theyre deff not starving. thanks for being a dick tho:D
woodsmaneh
- 1,724
- 263
OK so I was wrong you feed them for 8 weeks than nothing (starve them) for 4 weeks, is that right?
midwestdensies
- 2,886
- 263
interesting thread great inputs. I personally like strait water for 2-3 weeks but thinking some nutes for coco wouldnt be bad and ramp down and provide a tea to help.. Thanks guys
P
paulycali
- 2,479
- 163
2 week flush is ideal. I am using a flushing agent this time around to see the difference. I normally just flush with straight ro water but this time i am adding some Final Phase to the mix. I think my meds will taste even better this round with the flushing agent. Only time will tell
midwestdensies
- 2,886
- 263
flushing agent= more money wasted imo and better spent elsewhere. Look what its actually comprised of to know what its doing or how doing so
B
bckwht
- 539
- 93
i aimed for 10-14 day flush on my last few hempy bucket runs, and they all tasted great. Burned to white ash and werent harsh at all imo. If i remember correctly, I think I used molasses with the water like 2 times over those 10-14 days...prob watered them close to 8-12 of those days if i had to guess. This round I plan on trying a few diff styles out just to see how it goes...atleast 1 solid week with plain water though bc i dont want to have to smoke that harsh shit if it doesnt work out haha
midwestdensies
- 2,886
- 263
you dont need the molasses later on imo. Look whats in molasses, its best used weeks 2-6 flower on an 8-9 week strain and not in the final flush.
Dutchdaisy
- 21
- 3
Dutchdaisy
- 21
- 3
That bud look nasty,
caveman4.20
- 5,969
- 313
Thank you dynamite comes in small packages!
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