Junk said:

I would agree with almost everything you just said. My main point, is that, in my opinion, thinking that soil is less complicated is incorrect. If you want to kill it soil, you gotta know your stuff. If you want to kill it in organic soil, you have to be even better. However, it's pretty easy to buy 6 bottles of GH nutes, add water, & mix. Labor wise, easier than mixing soil.

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I agree, labor wise, i heard hydro is wayyy less complicated. And i cant wait to try it myself. Its hard any way you slice it i think. You still have to know a lot.

Honestly what i hear from pretty much ANY hydro grower is that once they made the switch the lessened work load and increased size is undeniable. And i think, for the same reason you didnt grow hydro first im guessing, is cause its a lot easier to imagine a seed or a plant growing in dirt lol. And the idea of water and moving parts just SEEMS overwhelming from the other side of the fence. Its up to you, to voice that and make sure that it becomes common knowledge. Cause ive personally heard it a lot. Hydro is easier. I didnt respond to this cause i disagree lol.

I was just seeing a bit of frustration in your post and i thought maybe i could help ease it is all haha.

I don't recommend co2 to moat beginners because most beginners don't have their rooms properly sealed. That's it. If your exchanging air, than you're wasting co2. It'd be like me recommending a/c with someone who exchanges air. You're throwing away money. Now if you did your homework and sealed it up, then gas it up no doubt. But I can't recommend gas for someone who is running their first tent or setup with can fans exhausting their air. There are a few exceptions. But for the most part it won't matter if you got the dough to roll with it if you're not really supplementing and throwing it away essentially

SeaF0ur said:

I find soil to be more forgiving to a noob provided you dont overfeed tremendously...

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P.s. I realize I just ran though my alerts & responded several times in the same thread when i could have made just one post. My apologies. It just didn't occur to me.

But, if you think about it, this part, "provided you dont overfeed tremendously" is really one of the main noob problems. Medium aside, if they over feed it, they overfeed it. But going back to that soil buffer we were talking about, I think the beginners know that in hydro, you have a slim margin for error...so they are less likely to fuss with it. I find hydro to be very clear cut...black & white. Soil...& I have a lot of experience in soil/soil type mediums, I think you really have to be in tune with it. Simpatico as it were.

I'll stop talking about it now. Respect all your opinions, & I've stated mine. We'll let the beginners start where they want & help them when they need it. Maybe @gardnguyahoy is right, & it's just the fact that I haven't been a noob for a long...long time.

Never in my life, did I expect to be saying things like "I started gardening almost 30 years ago."

When did I get so old? Yesterday I was 17.

Also million ways to skin a cat. I rocked hydro for a year or so. I much prefer top drip Coco. Imo much easier, but some prefer soil, and others find easier to do hydro. Whenever I ran buckets I always had to clean buckets and sterilize, no need to do that to numerous buckets, I got 1 rez now

SpitXFire said:

Also million ways to skin a cat. I rocked hydro for a year or so. I much prefer top drip Coco. Imo much easier, but some prefer soil, and others find easier to do hydro. Whenever I ran buckets I always had to clean buckets and sterilize, no need to do that to numerous buckets, I got 1 rez now

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Me too...a rez is the balls. At least now that I have it working (that sucked! all because the pump was not working & I didn't know it).

Junk said:

You can include me in that group. Terpenes are measurably higher in soil. The quality of the high however, has nothing to do with the soil. Terpenes are higher, cannabinoids are different in soil. But how those all mix, then has to mix with each person's body chemistry. So, no one can really say, which will be a better high for any one person. One can only say which they find to be a better high for themselves. Personally, I like them all.

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Plenty of good points but I really appreciate this one quoted above. My thinking is (though it is wholly unproven scientifically) that terpenes and flavonoids have been proven to be medically active, so a method that leads to higher concentrations of these compounds may therefore create a more medically active product.

Conversely I've seen so many reports by now it seems clear that, all environmental factors being equal, hydroponic methods can produce 1-3% more thc than the same strain grown in soil. That interesting to me! But still I grow soil because I agree, the high is different. Some of my hydro snob friends say soil grown doesn't get them as high- which really leads into what you had to say about it being purely subjective, based more on biochemistry and experience driven expectation, rather than the product itself.

I prefer organics every day of the week, but I'll never turn my head up at well grown hydro, some local homies have coco down so well I sometimes think about switching. But at the end of the day I like that the nutrients I buy come in compostable boxes, and as far as cost goes with recycled soils I'm spending less money than I ever have before. I think I paid maybe $100-120 on this round, not counting electricity of course.

Eventually I'll experiment with coco, and if I can grow it as well as I can do soil I may just switch over my production room... But I've been saying that for three years now lol

I hadn't touched a ph pen in years... but that said, I have previously gone over and over my soil mix and Albrecht ratios... I then kicked it to Tim Wilson and he assisted in fine tuning a few things to what I believe is near perfect...
Rhizosphere interactions maintain my ph... making everything overall less complicated in my opinion. It does require a bit of trust however in the rhizosphere, and there is no instant gratification...

NaturalTherapy said:

Conversely I've seen so many reports by now it seems clear that, all environmental factors being equal, hydroponic methods can produce 1-3% more thc than the same strain grown in soil. That interesting to me!

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It's downright fascinating. Breeding to me is fascinating. It's simple, yet I find it amazing, that you can take 50% of plant A, & 50% of plant B,(talking about finished product here) mix them, & consume how you wish. However, the effect can be much different, if you breed plant A & B, & consume your chosen F1. The fact that the sum can be more than the parts is just amazing to me. For me, growing in general (any plant) is just a spiritual experience.

SeaF0ur said:

I hadn't touched a ph pen in years... but that said, I have previously gone over and over my soil mix and Albrecht ratios... I then kicked it to Tim Wilson and he assisted in fine tuning a few things to what I believe is near perfect...
Rhizosphere interactions maintain my ph... making everything overall less complicated in my opinion. It does require a bit of trust however in the rhizosphere, and there is no instant gratification...

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I would love, love, love, to pick your brain about that. I would imagine you have a trusted Rhizo brand source? Bc from what I know about it, if those interactions are not on time, or fail, for any reason, you now have a ph problem which you may try to remedy, & the rhizo makes that harder to deal with...no? Or do you let your mix brew before planting in it?

gardnguyahoy said:

And the idea of water and moving parts just SEEMS overwhelming from the other side of the fence. Its up to you, to voice that and make sure that it becomes common knowledge. Cause ive personally heard it a lot. Hydro is easier. I didnt respond to this cause i disagree lol.

I was just seeing a bit of frustration in your post and i thought maybe i could help ease it is all haha.

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No frustration at all my man, not even a little. Thank you for trying to ease the tension nonetheless. The moving parts thing is a very compelling argument against a beginner in hydro. Very good point.

NaturalTherapy said:

Some of my hydro snob friends say soil grown doesn't get them as high- which really leads into what you had to say about it being purely subjective, based more on biochemistry and experience driven expectation, rather than the product itself.

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I don't like snob growers or smokers, no matter what medium. (Should that go without saying? Does anyone like any type of snob?) I've had hydro that blew me to the moon. I've had soil that I truly enjoyed vaping. Vape + Organics = Tasty It was almost like when you eat something, even though you aren't hungry, just bc it tastes so good. I like it all.

One thing I love about this plant is the unifying effects it tends to have overall. Alcohol has been proven to make many people belligerent, confrontational, argumentative. Other drugs even more so. This plant we all love so much, tends not to divide, but to join people. & the community surrounding it (for the most part) is very down to earth & friendly, even the super knowledgable ones. I guy at my preferred hydro shop met Chemdog the other day. He said, "You would never know it to look at him, or how he talks, he's humble." (his account, not mine) When people get so full of themselves (for their abilities, or their "discerning palate) that they ruin that, I just find it disheartening. If your abilities are that good, let other people shout your praises. They are heard much louder than when you sing them yourself.

About the palate, I haven't consumed enough product in various forms to have developed anything that could be considered trustworthy. Though I would love to one day go to a cannabis cup & try some of these entries (do they let you do that?) Do they ever hold them in Mass lol? Cuz I'd love to go.

I can appreciate a $200 bottle of wine, however, if you are offering me wine that you made yourself... I think I can appreciate that even more. & I'm not going to grill you on if it was "hydro or soil."

Its important to understand that the Ph scale is logarithmic, each unit of change equals a tenfold change
in hydroxide ions. A ph of 6.o is 10 times more acidic than a ph of 7.0. that being said 5.0 is 10x more acidic
than 6.0.....but 5.0 is 100X more acidic 7.0 tread lightly my friends. Tipz

tipz said:

Its important to understand that the Ph scale is logarithmic, each unit of change equals a tenfold change
in hydroxide ions. A ph of 6.o is 10 times more acidic than a ph of 7.0. that being said 5.0 is 10x more acidic
than 6.0.....but 5.0 is 100X more acidic 7.0 tread lightly my friends. Tipz

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I did not know this....(brain commences re-thinking everything I've ever encountered with Ph)

@tipz speaks the truth. On a similar note, I've mentioned it before; If you are serious as a horticulturalist, and truly trying to deepen your understanding of botany, it's is essential to attend classes on Chem and organic chemistry(p Chem optional). Companion books such as the twb(teaming with microbes) series are fine, but I feel it's more important to read actual textbooks and learn why the things we do, are borne out of the foundations of chemistry. And a botany class and biology 1 classes are much more useful imo than reading companion style books. They won't help you setup a room or get your cloning technique down, but I feel like it should be essential learning the concepts of molar conc. Etc etc.And interactions of the chemistry and how it relates at the observable macro level.. Now if you're just trying to grow that flame, no need to feel like you have to comply at all, but anyone trying to get into the sciencey side absolutely must as a base pre req imo

SpitXFire said:

@tipz speaks the truth. On a similar note, I've mentioned it before; If you are serious as a horticulturalist, and truly trying to deepen your understanding of botany, it's is essential to attend classes on Chem and organic chemistry(p Chem optional). Companion books such as the twb(teaming with microbes) series are fine, but I feel it's more important to read actual textbooks and learn why the things we do, are borne out of the foundations of chemistry. And a botany class and biology 1 classes are much more useful imo than reading companion style books. They won't help you setup a room or get your cloning technique down, but I feel like it should be essential learning the concepts of molar conc. Etc etc.And interactions of the chemistry and how it relates at the observable macro level.. Now if you're just trying to grow that flame, no need to feel like you have to comply at all, but anyone trying to get into the sciencey side absolutely must as a base pre req imo

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I've read Botany of Desire...does that count?

It's gotta be at least a pre-req...

Not familiar with it.

Secret life of Plants... I have a garden book by Dr. Mark Kathy from the Nat. Arboretum ,he's an agronomist, ...then the hand book from my master gardener course extension agents...
@NaturalTherapy ... Coco is very good, been using for years, my best mix in it was Azomite and worm casts and greensand...
As far as environmental factors for med grade IMHO I used MH light that brought resin levels up an terpenes... Also used Nitron A 35 soil conditioner ,still do, is made from Hemlock tree.
cw...

as a practical example, if you want to adjust the ph of your nutrient solution by 2 points from say 7.5 to 5.5 you would need to use 10X more adjuster than if you were moving the ph value by just one point.

Omw!! First, love all the conversation these last couple pages!! There have been excellent points on all sides.

@tipz Having previously had a fish store, that is one goodie I got to start into growing with and is a good point to bring up. 0.2 pH change in a reef is visibly noticeable to a keen eye.

@SeaF0ur xD, when I was doing things all wrong; I never checked pH on anything for 6-7 years :eek:.
With the ratio's, since I do soiless (so no Albrecht); I've looked into the various ratios (hoagland etc) for nutrient solutions. To those ends I found myself liking and using Steiner's method for a universal nutrient solution. He focuses primarily on cationic and anionic balance of solutions, as well as solubility too. I actually develop my profiles around this now; though I have to "build them up" in mmol instead of ppm.

@SpitXFire Totally agree with taking a class! Though, I tend to be a self-taught kinda guy I guess. May take me more time for this or that, or I may make mistakes; but I'm all about enjoying the ride!
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On the subject of different system types, guess that kinda feels like talking politics some. I try to avoid things like that in general. IMHO the ability for so many systems to work well, for me, is a partial testament to "adaptability' of these plants. There are a large group of things that are similar in all of the systems; yet the total number of variables and their impact still is quite varied. The fact that there is no "cut/dry" winning method; again points do adaptability (to me) rather than to focus on which is better. That same adaptability is part of the reason why there IS, XX reason one system might be preferred over another; to each person, and that to me is pretty cool.

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@gardnguyahoy you bring up some good points with being new. I may get pounced on for this...
I've gone back and forth on this particular point. I've helped some people "try it out" here or there and ran a lot of years "winging it" alone too. IMHO, personally I tend to "exclude" information for a person who's starting out. I try to tell them the absolute minimum needed to "finish" a plant. For instance, suggesting medium and nute along with dose (any will do). Then convey to water when you pick up the pot and it feels light. Tell them to start in X size pot and when plant is X tall, move to X larger pot. Last show them how to take a cutting and wish them luck. (of course suggest light, exhaust and light hours)
To me, to much information can be a bad thing to start off with. If a new grower is provided with just the info above; they are still going to have to contend with the largest factors (watering, feeding, environment etc). However, there are less things for them to "worry" about; but they may be more likely to learn about those few things. A first goal for a new grower should be to "finish the race" not try and "win it". Once a person has finished a race, then other information can be introduced and the person can begin the journey to "win". At least they won't have to ask what shoe to wear to the race. :D

A lot of the various things you'll see discussed on forums is sorta "picking at straws" refinements. Most/ many growers are always wanting to improve or find ways to do things better. So there's always going to be tons of information about how this or that improved something for a grower. Many of the various ideas, whatever merit they have, are to improve upon an existing method or application; be it soil mixes, salts, additives, systems, etc. Every one of these has a "baseline" for something TO be improved upon. So, get your "baseline" whatever method you feel comfortable with. Then you can begin to try out whatever you like, as you have something to compare with.
(all just my personal way of thinking here)

Poo, went on too long. Pic stuff will wait.

Excellent points @mgox a much more in depth version of my earlier statement. Class isn't necessary if you can keep up with the reading material, it's primary benefits are that there is someone well versed in the subject to help you through the stumbling blocks and that you get to work on a lab setting to learn proper procedure, and learn first hand applicable knowledge that sometimes experience and those who are experienced can teach you(eg, how many times do I have re iterate never premix nutes but add them to the water first to noobs; something that is obviously apparent to anyone with an intro lab class experience). Beyond that I agree if you can comprehend the lessons in said textbooks, schooling ain't necessary.

chillywilly said:

Secret life of Plants... I have a garden book by Dr. Mark Kathy from the Nat. Arboretum ,he's an agronomist, ...then the hand book from my master gardener course extension agents...
@NaturalTherapy ... Coco is very good, been using for years, my best mix in it was Azomite and worm casts and greensand...
As far as environmental factors for med grade IMHO I used MH light that brought resin levels up an terpenes... Also used Nitron A 35 soil conditioner ,still do, is made from Hemlock tree.
cw...

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I've been using coco at about 30% total volume in my soil beds, so I'm no stranger to its benefits. A buddy runs the same soul recipe as I do, but replaced the peat with coco so he's pushing 50-60% volume coco in an organic system, he's inspiring me to think beyond my practices for sure. I'll check out the nitron A product, see what it's all about.
So you flower under just mh? Interesting, I've heard some reasoning as to why but haven't tried it myself. I have 4 lights in flower, two of each mh and hps, and I switch orientation once a month.

Junk said:

I'd love to test that theory & take a noob who has only done soil with pics of their prior runs etc. Tell em to get one DWC bucket, I'll give them a recipe to run straight through (it won't change). Then have them report back as to what they found.

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I am about at the end of veg with my dwc. Gonna pull this Lil bitch out of the dirt (wasn't for me) that is in flower probably won't even get a quarter oz. Just couldn't do it correctly in the dirt. One of you guys could have pooped in my soil and made it grow better. Dwc on the other hand is BANGING, big and beatiful. I am at the potential for 40+ nodes on a plant that is roughly 6 inches tall, maybe 2 ft in diameter. Maybe it is because I liked to mess around and check on ph regularly, I just follow the directions on the bottles for feeding and calimag. But, yeah this is my first dwc. Did it in soil in high school, tried soil this year and realized I needed to grow faster. Sooo, I did only used to grow in soil as you said, and I'm trying dwc and loving the "black and white" guidelines. Waaaaay easier to grow a plant that it technically always overwatered compared to soil.

BTW you are all where I want to be when it comes to professionalism, knowledge, and growing experience. Thank you all for your help and work in the industry.