To Defoliate or Not To Defiate

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Defoliate?


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PaperStreet

PaperStreet

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Do u do it?
Why do it?
When do u do it?
What are the pro's?
What are the con's?

Just wanted to see whats up. I seen a few peeps talking about this here and would like to get some info if ya wouldnt mind shareing ur knowledge if u have some? I recently began defoliateing a few plants that where infested with flying aphids here and there i took a few fans off as flower progressed mainly the most infested fans, then any fans i felt where crowding other plants or i thought may lay on or infect nieghboring nugsites and basicly fans i thought where crowding themselves on the same plant as a whole.
My point is i would have never done this if i wasnt worried about the brown fungus the aphids carry and i didnt need anymore hatching to tear up my garden.
Not to get off the subject of defoliateing tho, i cant prove it, i have no scientific proof at all but i just feel like i actually increased my yield. I dont know why or how but i just feel like i did by decrowding the plants and getting lamp more evenly dispersed to shaded nuggs that wouldnt have otherwise seen the lamp.
Whats ur thoughts?
 
619ster

619ster

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I voted yes!!!

This is a quote from nMeeks, which explains the method to this madness much better than I ever could:

Defoliation- Source vs. Sink:

First of all, you will need to understand the concept of Source vs. Sink within a plant. Pretty self explanatory, a source is any part of the plant that generates more photosynthate (sugar) than it requires for growth, and a sink is any part of the plant that requires more photosynthate than it can produce (or is producing). What is key to understand with this is that a plant tissue can change from sink, to source, and back to sink all as part of the plants natural process. For example, a newly forming leaf (fan leaf or bud leaf) is always going to be a sink, requiring more sugar to grow than it is currently producing from photosynthesis. . . but once that leaf has reached close to its mature size, it is producing much more sugar than it requires because it is hardly growing at that point. . . .and then again as that leaf becomes older and cells start to get older, the chlorophyll will actually lose effeciency and although the leaf may still look green and healthy, it is no longer generating more photosynthate than it requires to stay alive, and therefore older leaves become sinks again!

There are also parts of the plant which will almost always be sinks. Those are things like the roots (obviously no way of producing photosynthate, but still require it), the flowers on most plants because most flowers contain very little to no chlorophyll compared to a leaf, and seeds are always going to be sinks (the strongest sink).

The important reason I am explaining the Source vs. Sink relationship is because when you have too many sinks and not enough sources, your yield goes down and the overall vigor of your plant is reduced. So to maximize yield and sugar content in the final product (the buds), growers should try to eliminate other sinks as much as possible, while maintaining as many strong sources as they can without risking poor airflow or reduced efficiency with too much shading.

Keeping all this in mind, you can guess that a leaf which is receiving less light (heavily shaded) is most likely going to be functioning as a sink in the plant, drawing sugar away from other sinks that you may be more concerned about such as the buds. Removing leaves above the shaded leaf may give it more light, and maybe enough to start generating more sugar than it needs, but the lower down the leaf, the sooner it will be past its highest efficiency and the closer it is to becoming a sink permanently because of photosynthetic efficiency loss. Therefore, I tend to remove older fan leaves (less efficient) first before I go removing mature newer leaves higher up on the stems because they are more efficient.

Now, once you have removed any leaves that are past their prime, you may still have some fan leaves shading other bud sites, which in cannabis do produce their own smaller bud leaves. The larger fan leaves are MUCH more efficient at producing photosynthate than the smaller bud leaves, and because they tend to be more exposed to air flow they will also transpire more, meaning they help more water and nutrients move through the plant compared to bud leaves which have much less surface area and transpire/photosynthesize much less. So, that means it is better to keep large fan leaves, even if they are shading a bud site or two, because they will function as a source for the bud site (sink) and send its excess sugar to the bud. If you remove the fan leaf, the bud is already functioning as a sink, and so will have to get the rest of the sugar it needs from a different fan leaf on the plant (different source required), meaning a different sink is now getting less than it was because it is sharing its sugar supply from its own fan leaf. . . . this kind of sharing and relocating of sugar pathways takes extra energy in itself, and is not beneficial even if the bud site is no longer being shaded and can produce slightly more sugar on its own from the small bud leaves.

In conclusion, remove old fan leaves especially if they are no longer receiving any direct light. Try to maintain as many sources on the plant as possible by getting as much light and air flow to the newer mature fan leaves as possible. Remove any very low sinks that are far away from any strong sources because they will generate almost no photosynthate on their own, along with drawing photosynthate away from other sinks that are more local to the source leaves higher on the plant. And don't worry if your bud leaves are shaded, because they are sinks anyways, so the plant is pumping all the excess sugar from local fan leaves to the nearest/strongest sinks it can find (your buds)!!
 
G8tfulgrdens

G8tfulgrdens

56
18
I voted yes!!!

This is a quote from nMeeks, which explains the method to this madness much better than I ever could:

Defoliation- Source vs. Sink:

First of all, you will need to understand the concept of Source vs. Sink within a plant. Pretty self explanatory, a source is any part of the plant that generates more photosynthate (sugar) than it requires for growth, and a sink is any part of the plant that requires more photosynthate than it can produce (or is producing). What is key to understand with this is that a plant tissue can change from sink, to source, and back to sink all as part of the plants natural process. For example, a newly forming leaf (fan leaf or bud leaf) is always going to be a sink, requiring more sugar to grow than it is currently producing from photosynthesis. . . but once that leaf has reached close to its mature size, it is producing much more sugar than it requires because it is hardly growing at that point. . . .and then again as that leaf becomes older and cells start to get older, the chlorophyll will actually lose effeciency and although the leaf may still look green and healthy, it is no longer generating more photosynthate than it requires to stay alive, and therefore older leaves become sinks again!

There are also parts of the plant which will almost always be sinks. Those are things like the roots (obviously no way of producing photosynthate, but still require it), the flowers on most plants because most flowers contain very little to no chlorophyll compared to a leaf, and seeds are always going to be sinks (the strongest sink).

The important reason I am explaining the Source vs. Sink relationship is because when you have too many sinks and not enough sources, your yield goes down and the overall vigor of your plant is reduced. So to maximize yield and sugar content in the final product (the buds), growers should try to eliminate other sinks as much as possible, while maintaining as many strong sources as they can without risking poor airflow or reduced efficiency with too much shading.

Keeping all this in mind, you can guess that a leaf which is receiving less light (heavily shaded) is most likely going to be functioning as a sink in the plant, drawing sugar away from other sinks that you may be more concerned about such as the buds. Removing leaves above the shaded leaf may give it more light, and maybe enough to start generating more sugar than it needs, but the lower down the leaf, the sooner it will be past its highest efficiency and the closer it is to becoming a sink permanently because of photosynthetic efficiency loss. Therefore, I tend to remove older fan leaves (less efficient) first before I go removing mature newer leaves higher up on the stems because they are more efficient.

Now, once you have removed any leaves that are past their prime, you may still have some fan leaves shading other bud sites, which in cannabis do produce their own smaller bud leaves. The larger fan leaves are MUCH more efficient at producing photosynthate than the smaller bud leaves, and because they tend to be more exposed to air flow they will also transpire more, meaning they help more water and nutrients move through the plant compared to bud leaves which have much less surface area and transpire/photosynthesize much less. So, that means it is better to keep large fan leaves, even if they are shading a bud site or two, because they will function as a source for the bud site (sink) and send its excess sugar to the bud. If you remove the fan leaf, the bud is already functioning as a sink, and so will have to get the rest of the sugar it needs from a different fan leaf on the plant (different source required), meaning a different sink is now getting less than it was because it is sharing its sugar supply from its own fan leaf. . . . this kind of sharing and relocating of sugar pathways takes extra energy in itself, and is not beneficial even if the bud site is no longer being shaded and can produce slightly more sugar on its own from the small bud leaves.

In conclusion, remove old fan leaves especially if they are no longer receiving any direct light. Try to maintain as many sources on the plant as possible by getting as much light and air flow to the newer mature fan leaves as possible. Remove any very low sinks that are far away from any strong sources because they will generate almost no photosynthate on their own, along with drawing photosynthate away from other sinks that are more local to the source leaves higher on the plant. And don't worry if your bud leaves are shaded, because they are sinks anyways, so the plant is pumping all the excess sugar from local fan leaves to the nearest/strongest sinks it can find (your buds)!!

Good stuff i really liked that, thanks
 
Dynamite

Dynamite

379
93
Depends on the strain slightly , but over all I do defoliate . I grow tree's , 1-3 plants per 1k light using overhead lighting .. I'm very confident in the fact that how you shape your plants is fully effected by your grow style

I do not remove the upper most fans for the most part, some strains I will take 50% of them, say bubba kush that gets crazy big fans , but strains like cheese and chemdawg I leave the upper most fans alone ,seems to always cause undo stress removing them

I'm a firm believer in lollypopping , once a couple days before flip , and again around week 3 in flower (after the majority of the stretch is done ) ..

around the end of week 3 , and again around week 5 I do most of the actual leaf removal , looking at what I have left of the plant after lollypopping , I divide that in half , and remove 70-80% of the fans on the lower half of the plant

I find over crowding to be a problem with alot of grows I've personally done , and seen in many other gardens over the years , people putting too many plants , or over vegging and then not following thru with proper plant shaping - causing loss in yield and far too many under developed buds

my 2cents
 
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PaperStreet

PaperStreet

1,149
263
For sure i guess its about adapting to what maybe your plants are telling u at that specific point in time.
I had a grower that i respect tell me recently that takeing fans off doesnt really add yield it only spreads it out accordingly over the plant hes tried it but this is also comeing from a grower that has his shyt together and plenty enuff room for his girls to open them up and get lamp deep enuff his words if he sees light on the floor across his grow hes fucking up! Or something just like that!
Now i grow accordingly usually just cramming becuz i cant seem to get my head out of my ass long enuff to get organized and figure out what kinda veg would be appropriate strain wise in my area so i overcrowd plant limits all taken into account i dont really have to worry about that either im always 2 patients ahead of the game.
So im gonna have to re read this and make sure it all makes sence when i get the time but it makes sence i truly felt that my plants where overcrowding when i recently defoliated and not only overcrowding other plants but themselves in general so i did what i felt seemed fit at the time and it worked out pretty much how dude said but at the same time showing me i was still fucking up overcrowding regardless and defoliating pretty much just kinda gave them breatheing room and lamp to those spots that would be otherwise crowded and shaded it seems i been overcrowding alot of the time but yes i see how to much or too little veg also plays into things and must be accounted for to determine if "ShapeShitfting" is necessary at any given point in time man where am i!
Man im gonna have to re read all this when i aint so faded and make sure i got that alright.
Cool
 
Dynamite

Dynamite

379
93
For sure i guess its about adapting to what maybe your plants are telling u at that specific point in time.
this is exactly what 20yrs of growing experience taught me (how to read a plant ), and being a hardcore leaf stripper back in the day (before the internet forums) I learned what too far is when defoliating

I had a grower that i respect tell me recently that takeing fans off doesnt really add yield it only spreads it out accordingly over the plant hes tried it but this is also comeing from a grower that has his shyt together and plenty enuff room for his girls to open them up and get lamp deep enuff his words if he sees light on the floor across his grow hes fucking up! Or something just like that!

even if the plant shaping I do only makes it easier to harvest , Im happy with that

you always want the smallest layer of larf , duff , under developed buds on your plant ... otherwise how far down the plant could you have had fully developed buds ? you wouldn't know for sure .. hence "you don't want light on the floor" - that's GREAT advice

Now i grow accordingly usually just cramming becuz i cant seem to get my head out of my ass long enuff to get organized and figure out what kinda veg would be appropriate strain wise in my area so i overcrowd plant limits all taken into account i dont really have to worry about that either im always 2 patients ahead of the game.

by overcrowding , even if your not effecting yield , you are effecting the quality of the bud , because you end up with sOO much under developed nugg - and them buds are not AAA+ like your top headies - plant shaping and leaf removals only job is to get better nugg further down the canopy - with equates to more usable yield for me - and less hash bag material ..I dont like to see more then a couple 2 or 3 oz's of small or underdeveloped buds from a single 1k

this topic is maybe one of the best discussions in growing , because there is no ONE right way to do it .. I think alot of it has to do with the question " what are you trying to achieve with defoliating/plant shaping ?" ..

weather it's lollypopping or leaf removal ,I like to break the plant into sections , and work certain percentages of that area
 
thump easy

thump easy

258
93
i do if my root base is well i begin to deleaf early striping the bottoms about a few inches, i continue to do so and leave a foot to a foot and a half canapee i dont like flarf on my bottoms i love hard rock nugs.. Ellow thier care to dare for a corn 013Ellow thier care to dare for a corn 021Spaced 008thats just the way i do it doesnt always work you could piss her off and she might grow a dick and try to get in were she fits in.. but thats just the chance i take... i look for weight and for this purpose i do just that you gota time it perfect though.. if you follow the stalk its just one plant.. and she did leave a holeSHE HAS PATENTIAL SHE IS A KEEPER 018this is a pic that is stone form the internet it is not real it realy cant be possible.. and if it is it is backed a state aproved clinic that this was tooken from thank you.. by the way Tripple platnuim girl scout cookies by THUMPER :)
 
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mmmdankbuds420

mmmdankbuds420

344
63
Nuff said.
Currently in week 5 of flower. At the beginning of the week I followed the advice given in hightimes regarding pruning. I pruned pretty much all of my fan leaves, especially any that had redish stems (I know magnessium deficiency but I always have purple leaves and I always feed with calimagic every watering). I have noticed the buds are loving it. And now that there less leaf clutter I can worry less about powdery mildew because of better canopy ventilation and less humidity in the canopy. It was hard at first leaving sticks in the place of bushes but I feel it was well worth it. I'll post some pics later
 
mmmdankbuds420

mmmdankbuds420

344
63
Step back and watch her move. Then decide what to take. Opening up the plant allows better light penetration and air flow
Ahh yes, I left out that important one. Extra light penetration for those buds a little deeper in the pack.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
I do this hand in hand with the technique of bending the plant stems towards the horizontal. This works to flatten the plant out and allows it to present much more surface area to the light, effectively making a bigger, broader plant from a smaller, taller one.
 
mmmdankbuds420

mmmdankbuds420

344
63
I do this hand in hand with the technique of bending the plant stems towards the horizontal. This works to flatten the plant out and allows it to present much more surface area to the light, effectively making a bigger, broader plant from a smaller, taller one.
Do you prune regularly as you bend or do you continuously bend and prune only certain times? I really want to adopt the scrogging technique.
 
PaperStreet

PaperStreet

1,149
263
I had a strain, the strain i was previously talking about that absoloutley did better with mild defoliation. It grew very congested and tight to itself all up and down the stalks. All i did was remove certain fans that where blocking better sites down the stalk and what actualy happened on that particular strain was it actually forced those budsites to grow out aways from the stalk and become there own buddsites i know it sounds crazy but thats the only strain that liked it and def did benefit from it and i know what to look for now.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
Do you prune regularly as you bend or do you continuously bend and prune only certain times? I really want to adopt the scrogging technique.

First thing to do is to top the plant when she's only six inches or a foot tall, and select for the best four branches. Let those grow up and as they reach the height of your eventual ScrOG, begin to bend them sideways. You'll find that pot stems are quite flexible, and you'll develop a feel for how to handle them. I've bent my branches completely horizontal before, the process actually helps the plant get stronger and be more able to hold up fat buds later on!
 

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