To till or not to till beds?

lizardwizard · Aug 22, 2014

What's up guys, happy Friday! I'm in between runs right now and having had only moderate success last run in 5 gals (due in large part to bad mineral deficiency), I'm looking to try beds next run. I see a lot of farmers having great success with beds and I was curious, what do ya'll do with your beds at the end of a cycle? I hear tilling and mixing an already established soil mass can have negative effects on the fungal/bacterial food web. Sorryi know it's a bit of a loaded question but how do y'all "reinvigorate" a nutrient-depleted bed without tilling and what do y'all do with a the dead root mass? Thanks and good vibes to all!

Herb Forester · Aug 22, 2014

I too am interested in this subject. Rock dusts are a good place to start for your minerals.

lizardwizard · Aug 22, 2014

Thanks Herb, rock dust will definitely find its way into my mix mix next pop. Through google I stumbled upon a product called "Agricola's best" which contains a couple different rock dusts as well as some other goodies. Do you top dress with rock dusts or amend thru out or both?

Herb Forester said:
I too am interested in this subject. Rock dusts are a good place to start for your minerals.

Seamaiden · Aug 23, 2014

lizardwizard said:
What's up guys, happy Friday! I'm in between runs right now and having had only moderate success last run in 5 gals (due in large part to bad mineral deficiency), I'm looking to try beds next run. I see a lot of farmers having great success with beds and I was curious, what do ya'll do with your beds at the end of a cycle? I hear tilling and mixing an already established soil mass can have negative effects on the fungal/bacterial food web. Sorryi know it's a bit of a loaded question but how do y'all "reinvigorate" a nutrient-depleted bed without tilling and what do y'all do with a the dead root mass? Thanks and good vibes to all!

Cover crops, and big inoculations of microbes. Outdoors for that, btw.

That said, if you need to amend, go ahead and mix up the soil mass. If you're inside it's not as though you're really destroying all kinds of soil life, only what you've introduced and has managed to make it into your area.

Herb Forester · Aug 23, 2014

lizardwizard said:
Thanks Herb, rock dust will definitely find its way into my mix mix next pop. Through google I stumbled upon a product called "Agricola's best" which contains a couple different rock dusts as well as some other goodies. Do you top dress with rock dusts or amend thru out or both?

Amending with basalt and Gaia glacial from the beginning. I think it takes too long to be useful as top dress indoors, but good for teas.

lizardwizard · Aug 23, 2014

Seamaiden said:
Cover crops, and big inoculations of microbes. Outdoors for that, btw.

That said, if you need to amend, go ahead and mix up the soil mass. If you're inside it's not as though you're really destroying all kinds of soil life, only what you've introduced and has managed to make it into your area.

Herb Forester said:
Amending with basalt and Gaia glacial from the beginning. I think it takes too long to be useful as top dress indoors, but good for teas.

Many thanks y'all, so what would be the minimum amount of time I should leave in unplanted bed to cook/inoculate/break down the slower releasing minerals so they're readily available for future plantings?

Seamaiden · Aug 24, 2014

Some of those minerals will take months to become available. Don't worry about cooking those, just get them mixed in and get it all well inoculated with microbes, which are what makes those minerals available.

Dr Stupid · Aug 28, 2014

To the OP, I fully agree to what has been said by these two wonderful people above, and might only reinforce, but here goes. Forgive my ramblings haven't posted in a while!

I've been in water only (save Fulvic acid, aloe, malted barley powder, and silica) soil beds indoor for roughly a year now. I had planned on going no till (read lazy), but my initial mix was getting a tad on the muddy side. So I amended recently with more pumice (one cubic yard) to fluff it up. While I was at it I added roughly 25 lbs of basalt rock dust, 4 lbs alfalfa, 4 lbs crustacean meal, 10 lbs fish bone meal, and 2 lbs kelp meal to 200 square feet of soil. The worms and company weren't happy with my diggings, but the plants are loving the added aeration it seems. I watered in with ogbiowar foliar pack for good measure. It sat for three weeks while clones were rooting. I made the best of a cloning mishap that caused a delay. Otherwise I would have just added the pumice only and top dressed the rest. In the future I plan on adding amendments to the top in small quantities. I top dress worm-castings too, so I might have to add more pumice eventually. Time will tell.

After every round I put the fan leaves and stems/stalks back on top of the soil after trimming is done. It's pretty cool and saves water acting as a mulch. I have tons of random plants growing from the soil as well. The place I get my worm-castings from is right down the street from a grocery store. The guy takes all their spoiled produce and feeds it to his worms. We're talking a thousand pounds of produce a day. So when the worm castings are added to the soil mix you get all kinds of cover crops from the seeds in the produce, and from his farm. Grass, dandelions, grapes, cucumbers, watermelon, clover, tomatoes, and tons of other plants I have yet to identify. Anyway these get overgrown by the intended crop and added to the soil mix.

Oh also I leave the root-balls still in there. If they get in the way during replanting I toss them on the top of the soil, next to the new plant.

lizardwizard · Aug 28, 2014

Dr Stupid said:
To the OP, I fully agree to what has been said by these two wonderful people above, and might only reinforce, but here goes. Forgive my ramblings haven't posted in a while!

I've been in water only (save Fulvic acid, aloe, malted barley powder, and silica) soil beds indoor for roughly a year now. I had planned on going no till (read lazy), but my initial mix was getting a tad on the muddy side. So I amended recently with more pumice (one cubic yard) to fluff it up. While I was at it I added roughly 25 lbs of basalt rock dust, 4 lbs alfalfa, 4 lbs crustacean meal, 10 lbs fish bone meal, and 2 lbs kelp meal to 200 square feet of soil. The worms and company weren't happy with my diggings, but the plants are loving the added aeration it seems. I watered in with ogbiowar foliar pack for good measure. It sat for three weeks while clones were rooting. I made the best of a cloning mishap that caused a delay. Otherwise I would have just added the pumice only and top dressed the rest. In the future I plan on adding amendments to the top in small quantities. I top dress worm-castings too, so I might have to add more pumice eventually. Time will tell.

After every round I put the fan leaves and stems/stalks back on top of the soil after trimming is done. It's pretty cool and saves water acting as a mulch. I have tons of random plants growing from the soil as well. The place I get my worm-castings from is right down the street from a grocery store. The guy takes all their spoiled produce and feeds it to his worms. We're talking a thousand pounds of produce a day. So when the worm castings are added to the soil mix you get all kinds of cover crops from the seeds in the produce, and from his farm. Grass, dandelions, grapes, cucumbers, watermelon, clover, tomatoes, and tons of other plants I have yet to identify. Anyway these get overgrown by the intended crop and added to the soil mix.

Oh also I leave the root-balls still in there. If they get in the way during replanting I toss them on the top of the soil, next to the new plant.

Thanks for the insight Dr, I'm thinking of going to a sort of modular multi-bed perpetual where at the end of cycle the used bed is given at least a one month break to decompose the old root ball and get recharged as necessary with organic matter/minerals/mulch via a top dress.

also, how are ya'll watering? i'd really like to get a nice clean micro-drip/micro spray setup in there. ive worked in irrigation for many years and companies like hunter, rainbird, netafim, etc have products that would just be the perfect application.

one more question, considering no-till, whats a medium (peat based, coir based, etc) that has some staying power with regard to structural degradation/erosion? relatively speaking of course

thanks ya'll any help and feedback is greatly appreciated

lizardwizard · Aug 28, 2014

sorry one more question, how soon do ya'll feel comfortable putting rooted cuttings/young seedlings into beds? i like the idea of a plant being well established early on in its medium and not being fucked with too much with a bunch of transplants?

Herb Forester · Aug 28, 2014

And the Dr stops in for his once a year post! :woot: Did you actually build beds this time, or just line the floor with drainage rock then go to work with your roto tiller? How often are you watering, and do those supplements get added every time?

Plasma · Aug 28, 2014

Rock dust is amazing stuff. Underrepresented in horticulture if you ask me.

Seamaiden · Aug 29, 2014

lizardwizard said:
Thanks for the insight Dr, I'm thinking of going to a sort of modular multi-bed perpetual where at the end of cycle the used bed is given at least a one month break to decompose the old root ball and get recharged as necessary with organic matter/minerals/mulch via a top dress.

also, how are ya'll watering? i'd really like to get a nice clean micro-drip/micro spray setup in there. ive worked in irrigation for many years and companies like hunter, rainbird, netafim, etc have products that would just be the perfect application.

one more question, considering no-till, whats a medium (peat based, coir based, etc) that has some staying power with regard to structural degradation/erosion? relatively speaking of course

thanks ya'll any help and feedback is greatly appreciated

Again, for my OD, it's drip irrigation (although I would love to find a good method that helps keep the whole of the soil surface moist), inside I'm hand watering.

I don't bother myself with waiting for the root ball to decompose, consider it another form of media if you will. This goes for inside and out. I think if you're just going to top-dress, you want to add something or do something that will help get those amendments incorporated where they're going to be used, which isn't at the surface but under the surface. Whether that's laying on a bit of compost over top, or doing a shallow "till" I think it's still necessary to not let it simply cake up on the surface.

Your last question isn't something I feel comfortable answering, because I just reuse everything and add back what I think it needs, much by feel.

lizardwizard said:
sorry one more question, how soon do ya'll feel comfortable putting rooted cuttings/young seedlings into beds? i like the idea of a plant being well established early on in its medium and not being fucked with too much with a bunch of transplants?

When they've got a good root system developed.

lizardwizard · Aug 29, 2014

Seamaiden said:
Again, for my OD, it's drip irrigation (although I would love to find a good method that helps keep the whole of the soil surface moist), inside I'm hand watering.

I don't bother myself with waiting for the root ball to decompose, consider it another form of media if you will. This goes for inside and out. I think if you're just going to top-dress, you want to add something or do something that will help get those amendments incorporated where they're going to be used, which isn't at the surface but under the surface. Whether that's laying on a bit of compost over top, or doing a shallow "till" I think it's still necessary to not let it simply cake up on the surface.

Your last question isn't something I feel comfortable answering, because I just reuse everything and add back what I think it needs, much by feel.

When they've got a good root system developed.

Thanks Seamaiden, I will keep that in mind. There can't be much harm in just "scratching the surface" (pun intended) to get new stuff incorporated right?

If you're looking for an application to give your whole soil surface a good moisture level, I'd recommend checking out Hunter's micro irrigation products. The point-source emitters probably won't give you what you're looking for but they do have drip tape and drip mats that give a very nice even spread, as well as micro-sprays in a few different patterns. I love those micro sprays but as you may know the more water you throw into the air (even at low pressure), the more water you lose to the air and doesn't get to your root zone, with greater losses at higher pressures. They also offer soil moisture sensors that come with the probe and module that does what blue-mats try to do but on a more effective level imho. All that said there are many different brands that make similar products but from my experience Hunter makes some of the best commercial grade irrigation gear out there.

Dr Stupid · Aug 29, 2014

lizardwizard said:
Thanks for the insight Dr, I'm thinking of going to a sort of modular multi-bed perpetual where at the end of cycle the used bed is given at least a one month break to decompose the old root ball and get recharged as necessary with organic matter/minerals/mulch via a top dress.

also, how are ya'll watering? i'd really like to get a nice clean micro-drip/micro spray setup in there. ive worked in irrigation for many years and companies like hunter, rainbird, netafim, etc have products that would just be the perfect application.

one more question, considering no-till, whats a medium (peat based, coir based, etc) that has some staying power with regard to structural degradation/erosion? relatively speaking of course

thanks ya'll any help and feedback is greatly appreciated

No problem glad I could help. Looks like Sea has covered your questions. I can only add that I too hand water once a week, maybe every 4 or 5 days as the plants grow and drink more. And search on here for octo-bubblers if you want to automate things. I have friends using them, and Jackmayoffer had a great thread on setting them up.

Also I have been planting clones right into the beds, but I'm going to start putting them in 4 inch pots to hopefully speed things up this next round. I want to have them ready and waiting this time.

Herb Forester said:
And the Dr stops in for his once a year post! :woot: Did you actually build beds this time, or just line the floor with drainage rock then go to work with your roto tiller? How often are you watering, and do those supplements get added every time?

My beds are sitting on the floor with no drainage. Just two frames full of dirt with posts for a trellis net on the corners. I mixed it all with a snow shovel and rubber boots. Simple but effective. Hand made if you will.

I am careful not to over water, so there's no runoff. I water once a week . Usually I water the base of the plants with the malted barley, aloe, fulvic, citric acid and silica. That's 45 gallons on over 5 cubic yards. Then I water another 45 gallons with just fulvic, silica and citric acid to clean the messy aloe barley mess. I also put a paint strainer on my pump to keep chunks of barley powder out. So roughly 90 gallons a week at the start, and then slowly increasing as they go.

I have only amended once, but I top dressed a yard of worm castings over the year. I'm just playing it by ear. I think having so much soil helps the roots find what they need though.

Herb Forester · Aug 30, 2014

Plasma said:
Rock dust is amazing stuff. Underrepresented in horticulture if you ask me.

I just transplanted some testers of the same pheno with varying amounts of rock dust and aeration. 100% basalt, 100% glacial rock dust, and 50/50.

Seamaiden · Aug 30, 2014

Will you do a side-by-side comparison thread, or perhaps update this thread or some other with your observations, please?

lizardwizard said:
Thanks Seamaiden, I will keep that in mind. There can't be much harm in just "scratching the surface" (pun intended) to get new stuff incorporated right?

If you're looking for an application to give your whole soil surface a good moisture level, I'd recommend checking out Hunter's micro irrigation products. The point-source emitters probably won't give you what you're looking for but they do have drip tape and drip mats that give a very nice even spread, as well as micro-sprays in a few different patterns. I love those micro sprays but as you may know the more water you throw into the air (even at low pressure), the more water you lose to the air and doesn't get to your root zone, with greater losses at higher pressures. They also offer soil moisture sensors that come with the probe and module that does what blue-mats try to do but on a more effective level imho. All that said there are many different brands that make similar products but from my experience Hunter makes some of the best commercial grade irrigation gear out there.

I've been looking at some drip tapes that use super low water pressure, you're going to advise the Hunter products, then? I'm not ready to take the plunge (read: I don't have the cash!), but it's one of those things I wanna get myself lined up for. :)

Dr Stupid said:
I am careful not to over water, so there's no runoff. I water once a week . Usually I water the base of the plants with the malted barley, aloe, fulvic, citric acid and silica. That's 45 gallons on over 5 cubic yards. Then I water another 45 gallons with just fulvic, silica and citric acid to clean the messy aloe barley mess. I also put a paint strainer on my pump to keep chunks of barley powder out. So roughly 90 gallons a week at the start, and then slowly increasing as they go.

I have only amended once, but I top dressed a yard of worm castings over the year. I'm just playing it by ear. I think having so much soil helps the roots find what they need though.

How are you liking the malted barley? I've got ONE quart left now, that's it. I've been using dry molasses instead because it's so cheap and I thought I'd run out of the MBE. Shit's tasty, too.

lizardwizard · Aug 30, 2014

Seamaiden said:
Will you do a side-by-side comparison thread, or perhaps update this thread or some other with your observations, please?

I've been looking at some drip tapes that use super low water pressure, you're going to advise the Hunter products, then? I'm not ready to take the plunge (read: I don't have the cash!), but it's one of those things I wanna get myself lined up for. :)

How are you liking the malted barley? I've got ONE quart left now, that's it. I've been using dry molasses instead because it's so cheap and I thought I'd run out of the MBE. Shit's tasty, too.

Hunter just seems to have the highest level of build quality and quality control plus great customer support, and they got a youtube channel that gives the average layperson a working knowledge of different irrigation app's. Check out their eco-mats, i think their main intended use is for sub-surface irrigation of sod but it may be of use to you, its like a fleece fabric type sheet thing that has sleeves that you run the standard dripline thru and it disperses evenly

caregiverken · Aug 30, 2014

No till for the win! I have been growing in the same soil for over 3 years.
Mutiple harvests each year. I remove the stumps..leave the roots to compost.
Its like growing in compost :) and it seems to be working

Herb Forester · Aug 30, 2014

Seamaiden said:
Will you do a side-by-side comparison thread, or perhaps update this thread or some other with your observations, please?

They're small containers so I don't expect to learn much. Was just at the bottom of some bags and thinking about which to buy more of, or both. There's also one with neither, will let you know if any noticeable differences. Basalt seems to be all the craze lately on the rock duster scene. Think I'm dropping azomite and srp for the same reasons others have done, or maybe just a little in teas.

To till or not to till beds?

To till or not to till beds?

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To till or not to till beds?

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