To till or not to till beds?

[Plasma]

IIRC basalt is very high in Mg.

 

[Seamaiden]

I thought it depended on the source/originating volcano. I do believe that there are no richer soils than volcanic soils.

 

[Plasma]

You're probably right, I'm no geologist. But I also thought different rocks were classified according to their compositional properties and the way they're formed? Would love to hear from anyone who knows for sure!

 

[DragonKilla]

The question piqued my curiosity, so I looked it up. I love Wiki.

"By definition, basalt is an aphanitic igneous rock with less than 20% quartz and less than 10% feldspathoid by volume, and where at least 65% of the feldspar is in the form of plagioclase. (In comparison, granite has more than 20% quartz by volume.)"

BUT....

Types

• Tholeiitic basalt is relatively rich in silica and poor in sodium. Included in this category are most basalts of the ocean floor, most large oceanic islands, and continental flood basalts such as the Columbia River Plateau.
• MORB (Mid Ocean Ridge Basalt), is characteristically low in incompatible elements. MORB is commonly erupted only at ocean ridges. MORB itself has been subdivided into varieties such as NMORB and EMORB (slightly more enriched in incompatible elements).[5][6]
• High alumina basalt may be silica-undersaturated or -oversaturated (see normative mineralogy). It has greater than 17% alumina (Al2O3) and is intermediate in composition between tholeiite and alkali basalt; the relatively alumina-rich composition is based on rocks without phenocrysts of plagioclase.
• Alkali basalt is relatively poor in silica and rich in sodium. It is silica-undersaturated and may contain feldspathoids, alkali feldspar and phlogopite.
• Boninite is a high-magnesium form of basalt that is erupted generally in back-arc basins, distinguished by its low titanium content and trace element composition.

Evidently it's defined according to its main mineral components and the fact its igneous, but specific composition is source dependent.

 

[Dr Stupid]

I just transplanted some testers of the same pheno with varying amounts of rock dust and aeration. 100% basalt, 100% glacial rock dust, and 50/50.

Sweet I'm also interested in this.

No till for the win! I have been growing in the same soil for over 3 years.
Mutiple harvests each year. I remove the stumps..leave the roots to compost.
Its like growing in compost :) and it seems to be working

I concur!

How are you liking the malted barley? I've got ONE quart left now, that's it. I've been using dry molasses instead because it's so cheap and I thought I'd run out of the MBE. Shit's tasty, too.

I really like the malted barley powder. I got it pretty cheap from Bob's Red Mill, on advice from Clackamas Cootz and company's recycled organic living soil (ROLS the 500 page thread that disappeared). I use his soil recipe and most of his feeding techniques. Anyway Bob's red mill stopped carrying MB powder recently. The lady at the Bob's red mill store said they had sourcing issues. I was happy she stopped me from getting regular barley powder. She said they are not the same. The malted barley powder has enzymes from being sprouted that aren't in the regular barley powder. I liked the MB powder from Bob's better than what I'm using now. It mixed well with water, and didn't clog my water wand or cling to the reservoir/pumps. I ordered some MB powder from Barry Farms and its slightly different. It has dextrose and flour added. It clumps up like crazy, clogging my water wand. That's why I have the paint strainer around my pump now. It also cakes to the side of my reservoir. It works just as well as the Bob's red mill though, so I can recommend it. But it's stepped on so that's kinda lame.

I reread what I posted a few days ago, and realized it might not make sense to anyone but myself. So I'll try to reiterate in case it helps someone experimenting with malted barley powder. I feed 45 gallons with 45 ml silica, 450 ml fulvic acid, roughly 4.5 grams citric acid (depending on where the ph is), 3 cups of MB powder, and 3 tablespoons of 200x organic aloe vera powder directly on the plants bases. I mix the MB powder and aloe in a blendtec blender pulsing a few times to mix it. I do this after everything is ready to go. The aloe apparently begins fermenting in 15 minutes, so I try to avoid that. After watering in the first reservoir I then fill the same 45 gallon reservoir, while spraying the MB powder off the pumps and reservoirs. I add the same amount of silica, fulvic acid, and citric acid to this second reservoir. In filling the reservoir a second time, and spraying the sides while filling, the rest of the malted barley powder gunk dissolves for the most part. The second reservoir is then watered right after the first reservoir on the surrounding soil. Basically it's a bit messy. End result is the plants are benefiting from it to my eye. I slacked on using it one round, and it seemed noticeable.

 

[Herb Forester]

Dr. you list silica and fulvic in liquid measurements, what concentrations are those? And do you source the aloe locally?

 

[Dr Stupid]

Dr. you list silica and fulvic in liquid measurements, what concentrations are those? And do you source the aloe locally?

On the silica I made a dynagrow protekt replica with Agsil H. I added 1135 grams Agsil H to one gallon distilled water. It has a little more potassium than the protekt. But the silica level is right. I use 1 ml/ gallon of that. I used to use 1 ml/ gallon protekt. Honestly it's cheaper, but not a huge savings.

I use BioAg Fulpower for the liquid fulvic. I went to a class on the Fulpower, and I was impressed. I use that at 10 ml/ gallon most feedings. The powder versions often have potassium, which is probably already over-abundant from my frequent silica use.

The Aloe came from Ingredients to Die For. It was $112 a pound. So not local, but cheaper than I could find locally. There is a place in town, Essential Wholesale, that sells 200x organic aloe. $165 a pound through them. I'll probably use them next time.

 

[Seamaiden]

FYI, Clackamas and "company" didn't know about or use malted barley extract (or powder) until they learned it from me. :eek: Yeah. Like that.

"Stepped on," you just dated yourself. :D

 

[Dr Stupid]

FYI, Clackamas and "company" didn't know about or use malted barley extract (or powder) until they learned it from me. :eek: Yeah. Like that.

"Stepped on," you just dated yourself. :D

Haha. Well there it is. I was not aware he learned it from you. I'm not surprised either. Thanks a bunch for sharing your knowledge Sea! I definitely saw you in the rols thread, but that barley detail was not apparent. Didn't check many other threads though.

I live in Cootz area so it's easy to shop where he does/did. That's why I followed that thread so close. Did he really expire as in pass away? Sure hope not. I never interacted with him. Just studied that thread and the links provided for months.

 

[Seamaiden]

I have no idea, haven't heard anything about that. If he did, I'd offer a "may he rest in peace" but the guy is (was?) too curmudgeonly for that.

 

[Patanjali]

I live in Cootz area so it's easy to shop where he does/did. That's why I followed that thread so close. Did he really expire as in pass away? Sure hope not. I never interacted with him. Just studied that thread and the links provided for months.

Coot has not passed away. He is still alive and posting.

I have no idea, haven't heard anything about that. If he did, I'd offer a "may he rest in peace" but the guy is (was?) too curmudgeonly for that.

I'm going to stand up for Coot here and say I find him witty and knowledgeable. Far more so then any other person I've read on any canna forum. Your personal qualms with Coot make his information no less relevant.

I think your curmudgeonly comment is very unprofessional, and I take offense to it.

P-

 

[leadsled]

FYI, Clackamas and "company" didn't know about or use malted barley extract (or powder) until they learned it from me. :eek: Yeah. Like that.

"Stepped on," you just dated yourself. :D

BULLSHIT. They are sprouting barley and using it for enzyme teas.

You use it as a food source like people do with molasses.

 

[Seamaiden]

BULLSHIT. They are sprouting barley and using it for enzyme teas.

You use it as a food source like people do with molasses.

And yet, the thought never once occurred to them until *I* posted about it. Never once.
I'm sure they'll tell others differently, though. And that right there is the real bullshit in my book.

Coot has not passed away. He is still alive and posting.


I'm going to stand up for Coot here and say I find him witty and knowledgeable. Far more so then any other person I've read on any canna forum. Your personal qualms with Coot make his information no less relevant.

I think your curmudgeonly comment is very unprofessional, and I take offense to it.

P-

Clackamas is who and what he is. My own observations don't change that, and they're certainly not unique. Anyone can search his posts and see for themselves, I've shared nothing new in that regard. Furthermore, I'm not going to defend my observations, they came at some personal cost.

 

[barefoot]

I wouldn't till.....unless deep ripped first............only creates a compaction layer..........Double Diggin' has been preferred method for myself as it helps shatter soil profile deeper allowing for better water/root penetration ......................planting green manure crops is a great way to build structure and nutrient supply for upcoming season................

when it comes to natives soils rich in nutrients.....bottomland soils near river/creek basins..............

ganj on............................

 

[frebo]

I thought it depended on the source/originating volcano. I do believe that there are no richer soils than volcanic soils.

This year I tried the "no til" and can see some mixed results. One bed I added a bit of FF compost and continued with all three Ogbiowar products early in the spring. One bed I turned over the top two feet of soil, added coco and compost and Ogbiowar. I made four new 8'x 16" round beds with a cu. yard of new locally prepared soil and 6 coco bricks in each one. At planting I added Ogbiowar.
The untilled bed produced smaller plants than last year. The turned bed produced more than last year and my new beds are filled with 5' x 8' bushes that are looking like 3 pounders.
I know I could have added more nutrients to my beds in the spring. What are the nutrients that become depleted? I make teas all growing season with worm castings, guano, molasses, kelp meal, blood meal(grow), bone meal and fish bone meal(flower), alphalfa meal, Epsom salts and all three of Cap's Ogbiowar.

 

[Seamaiden]

I think a tissue test would tell us exactly what we're removing, but since I don't know, I add back everything, including something for micronutrients, annually. I think everything you listed for your teas could be used, with the exception of the Epsom salt (I'm assuming that because it's so readily soluble it would only take a few waterings for it to be literally washed out of the soil). Once I saw what adding Sea-90 to my tomatoes and peppers did for stopping blossom end rot, after spending SO MUCH time, effort and money dumping calcium into the beds, I never leave it out anymore, but always use the lower, hydroponic dosing rate. I do still add Azomite as well.

But my main focus, when adding back fertilizers/nutrition, are as usual NPK, but also the immobile stuff like Ca, Fe, S, Si... now I'm drawing a blank.

Gotta love that red dirt, yeah? I can't believe how it stains clothes!

So right now your conclusion is tilling ain't such a bad thing. Right now I'm not finding a huge difference between tilling my beds or not, but I DO see a MASSIVE difference in my soil sources. The upcountry guy's soil is KILLING it, the outfit in Rancho Cordova is definitely not. Those beds are getting ripped out, if possible for next season.

 

[Patanjali]

I think a tissue test would tell us exactly what we're removing, but since I don't know, I add back everything, including something for micronutrients, annually. I think everything you listed for your teas could be used, with the exception of the Epsom salt (I'm assuming that because it's so readily soluble it would only take a few waterings for it to be literally washed out of the soil). Once I saw what adding Sea-90 to my tomatoes and peppers did for stopping blossom end rot, after spending SO MUCH time, effort and money dumping calcium into the beds, I never leave it out anymore, but always use the lower, hydroponic dosing rate. I do still add Azomite as well.

But my main focus, when adding back fertilizers/nutrition, are as usual NPK, but also the immobile stuff like Ca, Fe, S, Si... now I'm drawing a blank.

Gotta love that red dirt, yeah? I can't believe how it stains clothes!

So right now your conclusion is tilling ain't such a bad thing. Right now I'm not finding a huge difference between tilling my beds or not, but I DO see a MASSIVE difference in my soil sources. The upcountry guy's soil is KILLING it, the outfit in Rancho Cordova is definitely not. Those beds are getting ripped out, if possible for next season.

So what about Blue, Coot and the rest that are running 10-15+ cycles in their current notills? They are not adding back everything each round?

 

[Seamaiden]

Here's an idea. How about you go ask THEM? In fact, I'm getting the impression that that's the crowd you prefer. Why would you ask me to answer questions about what they're doing?

 

[Roskito]

I just have to call BULLSHIT here. Sprouted seed tea is technique used in Korean Natural Farming as was not invented by SEAMAIDEN! It's been used for centuries and has been documented for decades. But most people on forums are full of shit anyway. ;)

 

[Seamaiden]

Oh for fuck's sake!

I'm not saying the sprouted barley tea was "my" thing and anyone who puts those words in my mouth is full of shit. I'm saying that I'm the one who's been using malted barley (extract, which was what promulgated this particular area of discussion), for a few years now, AND I'm also saying that Clack and that whole crowd never once thought of it UNTIL I posted about it. If they say otherwise, they're lying, and I can probably find the PMs of those discussions. During those private discussions with Clack a whole bunch of other related methods and means were discussed, including diastatic malt.

Next thing I know they're doing the sprouted tea thing and as far as I can see, they discuss it like they invented the whole idea.

I'm sure there are plenty of other "new ideas" that aren't so new, just not well known. This isn't one I've run across in my perusings of KNF methods.