treating cuttings from root aphid infested plants

[max_well]

Hey All
In the wake of a root aphid infestation, I'm looking to reset my grow rooms and take clean cuttings in an attempt to start fresh. My hope to is to take cuttings from plants that have been infested, destroy everything, disinfect on repeat, and let the room sit dormant for a few weeks while rooting the cuttings in a safe zone. I want to come up with a plan to treat the cuttings to ensure the pest is not transmitted to the next round, as I've read that some have struggled to do this successfully.
My thought was to take the cuttings, give them a soak in pyrethrin solution, rinse and dry, them let them sit in a ziplock the refrigerator for a week or so before recutting stems and rooting.

However, I've been given some insight about how this is done in the wine world here (at least in South Australia)


when being imported from know phylloxera regions:
"Cuttings/rootlings must have been subjected to a hot water dip treatment (54 C ± 1C for 5 minutes) immediately prior to dispatch to South Australia; [Hot water treatment at 50C for 30 minutes is an acceptable alternative.]"

Caution: Some plant material may be damaged by this treatment. A trial treatment is recommended unless the response of the plant material to this treatment is known."

I would guess that this hot water treatment (55 C = ~130 F) would kill eggs, as well as live bugs, but I imagine it would also most likely kill the cuttings, or compromise chance of rooting. What do you think?

any thoughts are appreciated!
Max

 

[cemchris]

Why even risk it if you are gonna scrap a grow tear it down clean everything and then use infested cuttings with the hope it will not happen again.

 

[budseyeveiw]

Why even risk it if you are gonna scrap a grow tear it down clean everything and then use infested cuttings with the hope it will not happen again.

good point

 

[max_well]

Primary reason to risk it is to preserve genetics, and also to avoid the time and resource that would be required to start from seed. My cuttings will be rooted far from grow space (miles away), so with quarantine (and careful inspection) I would think that I could avoid reinfecting my space. Taking cuttings and treating them as a risk for me is not much different from the method I would adopt taking clones from any outside source now (that's what got me in this battle).
Also, in general, I'm trying to understand the complex life cycle of this pest, and what the chances of foliage carrying the aphids forward relies on this understanding.
Good info from the wine world here and in the related links on the right:
http://berrygrape.org/phylloxera-what-is-it/
Here's info on hot water protocol to kill all stages of life:


What about the thought of this being done in larger plants? Would 125 F h2o root bath for 5 minutes kill roots of a healthy plant? I imagine it would compromise the plant significantly, but who knows? Could be worth an experiment.. The fact that this is protocol for rooted cuttings of grape vines that are imported to some locations suggests that it at least does not kill the grape plant .
People in wine growing community have been battling for many decades, with much more money and research informing their efforts, so I think looking at their results and suggestions is informative. To get a feel for the magnitude of this battle in Europe, dating to mid 1800's, this is a good read:http://cas.umkc.edu/philosophy/gale/proofs.pdf
quite an interesting story

 

[max_well]

further..
The fact that experiments show that 125 hot water for 5 min kills all stages of growth suggests to me that using a heater / co2 burner to jack up room temp that high for a few hours would be a good way to ensure grow spaces are bug free. I have tightly sealed, heavily insulated rooms which should help.. sounds better than bug bombing to me, and possibly more thorough.
These things don't live in areas that get to these temps. They like to chill in the moderate coastal areas that are good for grapes..

 

[cemchris]

Yea but again if there was a cure or an end all then this wouldn't be the problem that it is.

Again man I had alot of cuts I didnt want to lose. In the end its the reason I prolonged the end trying to save them. Gave me a good lesson in it though. All im saying is using the cuts will almost guarantee you problems in the future. Cuts can always be had again and if not then well IMO time to source some new or start down a new trail. Im speaking from experience with the same problem. If these little fuckers will swim in poision man Im sure you cant get all of them.


Dont live in hot temps? It gets above 100 here on a reg basis and trust me they live here just fine.

Hey man Im all for it. Seems everything that has been thrown at them they take in stride.

 

[Chronic Monster]

These bugs are a straight downer. :(

 

[max_well]

Hey CC
thanks for the input...
I agree that it is pretty clear that there is no defined "cure" in vineyards or elsewhere in nature to eradicated phylloxera. But indoor growing is far from natural. The fact that phylloxera exist where it occasionally reaches 100 F outside is quite different from a controlled means of heating plant matter to 125 F... and the root eating form of RA like to live a few feet underground where it is never close to 100. It shouldn't be surprising that moderate heat will kill them -- the response of insects can be really tightly tuned to small changes in temp and humidity. To a human, 100 f outside feels just about as shitty as 115, but to an insect this could be the difference between living for days compared to living for minutes.
With all the misinformation and mixed experience people have documented with these pests it's refreshing to get some info that that comes from a controlled study.
It sounds like you had bad luck with using cuttings from infected plants, but I do know some have had success with this. . Love to hear others experiences/thoughts. It the meantime I'll do some tests to see how cuts respond to the hot dip.

 

[max_well]

heat shed

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/reporter/stories/s1320457.htm
love the sign

 

[Seamaiden]

I'm simply going to wish you luck and hope like hell that it works. If it does, you'll post about it and add to the body of knowledge. If it doesn't, you'll still post about it and add to the body of knowledge.

Some of my thoughts are that grapes tend to be a much more woody plant, and therefore the plant itself may likely be better able to withstand that heat. Still though, it's worth a try. Also, I ended up losing ALL cuttings I took post-infection, as well as all young cuttings that had been taken long before the infection. The only cuttings I didn't lose were the mature, well-established mothers, but they look like shyte. They're living outside and growing under the sun, and since they've revegged so hard it should be fairly easy to get more cuttings from them. What I don't know is how well those cuttings may or may not take.

Please, max, DO keep this updated.

 

[FRANKIE1579]

I am going this route. I have tried EVERYTHING else, nothing works. If this really does kill them in a controlled environment then it is worth a try.

I fully immersed 3 large rooted cuttings in 125 F water for 10 minutes last nite. It was fully apparent immediately afterwards that the foliage had been damaged beyond repair. So this is not an option for the leaves on cannabis. However in this case, our problem lies at the roots.

I immersed ONLY the rockwool on 3 rooted cuttings today. So far they are looking strong and healthy. I will also be testing this on a large 5 foot Chemdog mother, fully immersing the roots but not the plants (will tanglefoot the base of stem) and see how she responds.

If this works, then instead of cold waterings with nutes I will just make sure my reservoir temperature is 125 F and flood for 5-10 mins. Would not change that much for me but if it means clean sterilized clones, I am all for it.

 

[Seamaiden]

Frankie, I saw your other post on this yesterday and am quite appreciative. This could be the simplest, yet most effective control we have available to us. One that doesn't need EPA or other regulatory agency approval!

 

[spaaaaceboy]

Anyone figure out a good way to do this? Im dosing moms with 2 batchs of pyrethrin 5 days apart then spraying all the leaves with acephate which is systemic and should kill any on the leaves as well as get to the roots of the plant. At this point i will take my cuts and once roots pop I plan on dosing them all with imid for long term protection also all plants will be hit with botanigard.

For clean up i will be spraying the whole room with a water based pyrethrin weekly and any pots will be placed in a tray with tanglefoot around the rim. Thought of hanging tables from the ceiling, but i think will do this once im pretty sure the problem is contained. My logic is that as long as i make sure all fliers are dead any stray crawlers will not be able to cross the tanglefoot barrier.

Anything I'm missing?

 

[Shamus]

first off let me say the only way i got rid of them is by taking cuts and starting over in a completely diff house. the area i had was to messy to really fully disinfect.. if your in a lab like environment or just in one clean room with little cracks or crevices it may be possible with a good STRONG bleach clean up...

as far as things i tried.. i looked into their weakness's, at cold temp's their life cycle and all together energy slows, thus making it easier to kill them before they lay eggs

i literally put all my moms in styrofoam coolers and added dry ice and norm ice like 2 times a day for about a week..

products i used during this time

botaniguard
azamax
azasol
avidd

2 weeks cycling of that ^^

and then
SNS 203 for about a week and a half

flushed

repeated cold root treatment (only about 4 days this time)

then did the first set of products again

waited 3 days

made a good ole bowl of avid and azamax (avidd's not even a contact killer so kind of pointless)

dipped cuts in the bowl

put cuts in another bowl

put it in a different area of the house

took a shower and changed my clothes (didnt touch new clothes beforehand)

walked out the door as quick as possible and bought new medium (WITH OUT HOLES IN THE BAG)

and started over.

hello my name is shamus and ive been aphid free for two years :) lol

also if i had access to karanja meal or neem cake (or even knew about it)

i prolly would have been doing 1/2 tsp of neem cake per 5 gals very often

some of this products are no joke and you need to proceed with extreme common sense and precaution when handling. i didnt. i thought gloves were good.. lol no. esp if ur foliar spraying things liek the avid. gloves are not good enough. full suit

 

[johnnyV420]

So I've been up all night researching, and I had posted earlier in the infirmary. But I just came to the conclusion that I have root aphids:yuck:. Haven't seen a Damn thing, but it seems the only possible explanation for the set of problems I'm having in my veg room when linked with the other strange shit in my flower room. Don't think it's too bad though, my rooms are highly sterilizable, and I have done irregular preventative soil treatments which I think is the only reason I have been confused so long - the plants have been fighting back well enough that I just thought they had some small deficiency from something ph related or something. But having discovered that this is fairly common with these sneaky sonofabitches, I am convinced. So, assuming I ride out my flower room until I can clean the shit out of it, what to do in veg? I'm thinking of throwing out the roughest ones, doing a rotation of soil treatments between pyretheum, botaniguard, azamax, and maybe SNS 203? Then when flower room ready, move all remaining plants in, taking cuttings only of the healthiest & cleanest ones, move the cuttings to a clean nursery, bomb, bleach and wash down veg. Then hopefully when that next flower room comes down and I clean it again, I won't have to do the veg room again lol. Any thoughts on these treatments and particularly any thoughts on how to be sure of the cuttings before I put them back in the veg room? I'm mainly puzzling over how far apart these treatments should be to be safe for the girls.

 

[Seamaiden]

Look through We Solidarity's thread on pix and identification.