Triacontanol- what it is, where to find it

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squiggly

squiggly

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Triacontanol is a long chain (30 carbons i believe) alcohol. Its used to build cuticle wax in plants, and as a hormone (a fatty acyl alcohol ester is a wax).

If there is enough of it--it should form micelles in water and thus be soluble to some degree. So yes--gently heating should work. The answer is no you do not need bacteria in there to get the benefit--steeping in water like a real "tea" should work just fine if all you're looking for is the nutrient content you'd be getting (which is very very miniscule) or for the hormone/antioxidant/etc. content.

Again tho I gotta point out that this stuff might be more trouble than it's worth if we either use too much--or too late into flower. Can definitely be negatively affecting growth.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Triacontanol is a long chain (30 carbons i believe) alcohol. Its used to build cuticle wax in plants, and as a hormone (a fatty acyl alcohol ester is a wax).

If there is enough of it--it should form micelles in water and thus be soluble to some degree. So yes--gently heating should work. The answer is no you do not need bacteria in there to get the benefit--steeping in water like a real "tea" should work just fine if all you're looking for is the nutrient content you'd be getting (which is very very miniscule) or for the hormone/antioxidant/etc. content.

Again tho I gotta point out that this stuff might be more trouble than it's worth if we either use too much--or too late into flower. Can definitely be negatively affecting growth.

Ok so my plan will be to chop down a healthy handful or two, run it thru a blender or just chop it up good, boil it into a 'tea', then cool and strain it. At that point it will be sterile- having boiled- and should have the Tria in it? I only plan to use this in veg, to stimulate growth, and perhaps adding it the first week of flower.
 
Aerojoe

Aerojoe

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Ok so my plan will be to chop down a healthy handful or two, run it thru a blender or just chop it up good, boil it into a 'tea', then cool and strain it. At that point it will be sterile- having boiled- and should have the Tria in it? I only plan to use this in veg, to stimulate growth, and perhaps adding it the first week of flower.
I'm not sure on the boiling bro, I usually just put it into my bags to steep when I'm making my ACT's.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I'd avoid boiling--gentle heating would be the way to go in my mind. You also my consider making the water 5% by volume of a short chain alcohol--isopropanol or ethanol. This should help to draw some of the tria out and solubilize it.

Definitely would not boil--and I'd remember to reduce this volume by something like 1-2cups to 5 gal before application. You won't want to feed this full strength (unless you're doing it for experimentation).

If you want to experiment, I'd consider adjusting the dosages you're feeding to various plants to see what the effects are.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I'd avoid boiling--gentle heating would be the way to go in my mind. You also my consider making the water 5% by volume of a short chain alcohol--isopropanol or ethanol. This should help to draw some of the tria out and solubilize it.

Definitely would not boil--and I'd remember to reduce this volume by something like 1-2cups to 5 gal before application. You won't want to feed this full strength (unless you're doing it for experimentation).

If you want to experiment, I'd consider adjusting the dosages you're feeding to various plants to see what the effects are.

Okay, so gentle warming, but not over... what? 120 f? Add a little alcohol, do do that before or after warming? If the alcohol evaporated, would it leave the Tria insouble again?

The experiment is to see if/how well it works in ebb n flood with small vegetative plants. Will use 1-2 cups/5gal, so that works out to 5-10 cups for the whole 27 gallon res. How much weight or volume of *fresh* alfalfa per gallon of solute to make a tea strong enough to work?
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Okay, so gentle warming, but not over... what? 120 f? Add a little alcohol, do do that before or after warming? If the alcohol evaporated, would it leave the Tria insouble again?

The experiment is to see if/how well it works in ebb n flood with small vegetative plants. Will use 1-2 cups/5gal, so that works out to 5-10 cups for the whole 27 gallon res. How much weight or volume of *fresh* alfalfa per gallon of solute to make a tea strong enough to work?

The melting point is 87C and water boils at ~ 98C. So you wanna get past the melting point for sure.

If it was me I may even consider running this as an alcohol extraction and then diluting the extract down for application. This stuff is not going to want to be very soluble in water. If you go back to our earlier discussion I believe the recipe calls for dissolving the substance into alcohol and then diluting (with the calcium addition, yes?).

You may have trouble directly solubilizing directly into water.

As for how much I'd need a few questions of my own answered first to answer this and those are:

1. What is the mean TRIA content in your native alfalfa species? This would have to come from GC-MS analysis and might vary from place to place and season to season.

2. What is the "correct amount" for a positive effect with cannabis in the first place?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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The melting point is 87C and water boils at ~ 98C. So you wanna get past the melting point for sure.

If it was me I may even consider running this as an alcohol extraction and then diluting the extract down for application. This stuff is not going to want to be very soluble in water. If you go back to our earlier discussion I believe the recipe calls for dissolving the substance into alcohol and then diluting (with the calcium addition, yes?).

You may have trouble directly solubilizing directly into water.

As for how much I'd need a few questions of my own answered first to answer this and those are:

1. What is the mean TRIA content in your native alfalfa species? This would have to come from GC-MS analysis and might vary from place to place and season to season.

2. What is the "correct amount" for a positive effect with cannabis in the first place?

I am operating under two assumptions; one, that alfalfa's triacontanol content is likely to be highest in fresh shoots, especially the 'first cut' stuff coming up volunteer right after winter, and two, that in alfalfa the triacontanol is already solubilized- or the alfalfa couldn't use it, either.

I happen to already have a bucketload of calcium nitrate I was thinking of using as something for the Tria to bind to. Would there be another form of calcium I should try instead? Of course I understand that once the nitrogen is in the solution, diluting it substantially is essential just to prevent nitro burn.

How might I use calcium as a 'binder' in the first place? Would this work better with an alcohol extraction?

As ever, your comments are appreciated. I'm learning a lot here!
 
girlwondergrows

girlwondergrows

60
8
2 ideas:
First, why not put alfalfa into 87* C water with polysorbate 20? I can't remember how much those scoops from supergrow.biz held but I'm sure we could find a percentage of polysorbate for water. I can't find much data about heating polysorbate but I think they use it for candles so below boiling should be fine.

Second, if alfalfa adding to ACT: what about adding polysorbate 20 or some other non-ionic surfactant to the mix? It would surely help some amount to increase the solubility in the tea, even at lower temps.

Thoughts?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Ttystick asked me to post up the alfalfa tea I've been using for a few years. I've quoted squiggly because my experience dictates that he's 100% correct--you do NOT want to be using this too late in flower without being very, very careful. Just like pushing too much N too late into flower can cause re-vegging to begin (they'll start pushing leaves out through the buds and stop building buds), the alfalfa tea can do the same thing. However, used at the right time on the right plants it can be amazing, can bring back plants that aren't looking too great and can cause quite a push of growth on those that are otherwise doing well. In other words, start low and slow, work from there, and less is more.
Triacontanol is a long chain (30 carbons i believe) alcohol. Its used to build cuticle wax in plants, and as a hormone (a fatty acyl alcohol ester is a wax).

If there is enough of it--it should form micelles in water and thus be soluble to some degree. So yes--gently heating should work. The answer is no you do not need bacteria in there to get the benefit--steeping in water like a real "tea" should work just fine if all you're looking for is the nutrient content you'd be getting (which is very very miniscule) or for the hormone/antioxidant/etc. content.

Again tho I gotta point out that this stuff might be more trouble than it's worth if we either use too much--or too late into flower. Can definitely be negatively affecting growth.


My Alfalfa tea recipe isn't very precise. The water feels warm enough to me for making yogurt (I make my yogurt by feel, too, in the microwave no less).
Seamaiden said:
I continue to use alfalfa because I see great vegetative results from it, especially if a plant is struggling.

The tea itself is stupid easy.

Handful of alfalfa hay (I get the sweepings from my local feed shop for free, they even provide me with the trash bag to put 'em in), throw that into a half-gallon or so of warm water, let it steep for 1/2-1hour, strain off and use.

That's it. You can use meal, it's more expensive so I haven't. I actually buy alfalfa pellets (the feed kind) and put those in my beds. This prevents seeds starting, as may occur if using the hay. You can probably make tea from the pellets as well, but I haven't done it (yet!).
 
FlyingSkull

FlyingSkull

33
8
Or you guys could just purchase a bottle of Snow Storm Ultra which is a concentrated form of the PGR Triacontanol. It is very cheaply priced.

Wait a tick.....I thought PGR's were bad and made by the devil? hehe
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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Or you guys could just purchase a bottle of Snow Storm Ultra which is a concentrated form of the PGR Triacontanol. It is very cheaply priced.

Wait a tick.....I thought PGR's were bad and made by the devil? hehe

Some, not all PGRs- this one is derived from a natural source (alfalfa) and is demonstrated effective- and, no one has fingered triacontanol as potentially harmful unlike so many of the others.
 
FlyingSkull

FlyingSkull

33
8
Right on, that was my feeble attempt at humor.....

Have done a good bit of testing with this PGR and have found it very effective for several uses such as cloning, and a additive (used in solution or root drench and as a foliar) for both veg and bloom cycles as well. The alfalfa tea's work well as does Snow Storm Ultra which contains a very concentrated source of Triacontanol.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Some, not all PGRs- this one is derived from a natural source (alfalfa) and is demonstrated effective- and, no one has fingered triacontanol as potentially harmful unlike so many of the others.
I have one issue, and I think it's pertinent--what's the source alfalfa? I have no way of knowing whether or not the alfalfa I'm getting from the feed store is GMO or not. I want to know, but they can't tell me. I've never seen them offer organic alfalfa, though they offer an amazing smorgasbord of such feed for dogs and cats inside, or other hays. I can't even get them to order me a 5gal bucket or three of feed molasses, though, and apparently A&M is no longer made (alfalfa & molasses, a mix to get sluggish horses hot and to beef up thin ones).

I've a rather wiry hair across my ass about GMOs, and it's only gotten thicker.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
I have one issue, and I think it's pertinent--what's the source alfalfa? I have no way of knowing whether or not the alfalfa I'm getting from the feed store is GMO or not. I want to know, but they can't tell me. I've never seen them offer organic alfalfa, though they offer an amazing smorgasbord of such feed for dogs and cats inside, or other hays. I can't even get them to order me a 5gal bucket or three of feed molasses, though, and apparently A&M is no longer made (alfalfa & molasses, a mix to get sluggish horses hot and to beef up thin ones).

I've a rather wiry hair across my ass about GMOs, and it's only gotten thicker.

The alfalfa I'm sourcing is from the bike trail near my house. If it's fertilized by the local dog population, does that make it organically grown? :eek:
 
FlyingSkull

FlyingSkull

33
8
GMO's are found everywhere in the USA. Even farmer's with organic fields are saying that there organic crops are getting "infected" so to speak. Just read another report that says they are now finding jet fuel toxins in organic lettuce farms. There is no way to be safe right now unless you are completely self sustained, and even then, its a crap shoot at best.

In other countries ALL GMO's must be clearly marked on the package, except for the USA and Canada.

There are so many problems with current agriculture who even knows where to begin? We are raping the earth of its natural resources like phosphorous and MANY others that are all being sold like a stock market commodity, even water.

None of this stuff will matter in a few more years rest assured. California will be out of water in about 17 years and Mexico will be out of water in about 7 years. These will be game changers for sure. At the present rate "war" for basic survival is not far off, another game changer. Toss in a natural disaster or 2 and then add in rising sea level due to climate changes that some are still in denial about.
 
Toker Ace

Toker Ace

158
28
If the bomb stuff is fermented alfalfa, let it sit in a damp pile out in the sun to rot some and get the good juice from that. Then make it into ACT. The stuff grows all over the place here as well and my chickens eat it all summer long.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

6,892
313
If the bomb stuff is fermented alfalfa, let it sit in a damp pile out in the sun to rot some and get the good juice from that. Then make it into ACT. The stuff grows all over the place here as well and my chickens eat it all summer long.

I've spoken with Seamaiden and others, who all say that fermentation is unnecessary. It grows wild around here, too- if it's free and it's effective, I'd be an idiot not to take advantage, right?
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

338
93
can we please review what the best sources of TRIA are and what doses people are using them at?

-Alfalfa teas
-Calcium 25 (which one from thier site??
- Snow storm ultra (Does this contain other gunk in it besides TRIA?)
-Superthrive

Bumpy Bump!!
 
Fresh Starts

Fresh Starts

338
93
I found the cheapest way to supply Triacontanol at clicky---> MBferts.com
Looks like I'll be mixing up a batch with polysorbate 20. I think I read that 10ppm of Tria was the most beneficial to use in waterings. Any one else experiment with higher ppms?
 
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