Uh-oh! Lockout? Overfert? Ph Issues? HALP!

[sensiBC]

What STRAIN are you growing? Rockstar Kush
What was the establishing technique? (Were the seed or clone?) clone
What is the age of your plants? approx 1 month from cut
What PHASE are the plants in? (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in? Veg
What Technique are you using? LP Aero
What substrate/medium are you using?(Hydroton, RockWool etc.) N/A. Neoprene Pucks
What is the Nutrient temperature? 66-68f
What Nutrient's are you using? GH Maxibloom
What is the TDS/EC/PPM you are using? Flushing with PH'd tap today, but prior to that 700ppm at .5 conversion (ec 1.4)
What is the pH of the "Tank"? Swing from 5.5-6.0
Are you sure your calibration is correct on your equiptment? Calibrated weekly, might grab some new solution soon to be sure
When was your last watering? 15 min on, 15 min off
When was your last feeding change? (ie. grow-bloom-micro-additional) Flushing with plain ph'd tap for 24 hours at the moment, before that it was maxibloom and nothing else
What size bulb are you using? 1000w HPS and 600w HPS, both in aircooled tubes
What is the distance to the canopy? approx 15 inches for the 1k, a couple feet for the 600
What is your RH Factor? RH is in the mid 50% range
What is the canopy temperature?76-78f
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include flucutaion range)Lights on 24h while vegging
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)CGE. 20" fan for room circulation (4x8 tent). 6" Vortec with carbon filter for scent and Icebox for cooling, C02 via Propane controlled by matador. Air from lights does not interact with room.
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?No, but they're dancing in the breeze a bit
Is your water HARD or SOFT?30-70ppm from the tap. (EC .06-.14)
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned off of or pinchedNo
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so, What and When? No, but I did add 4ml of bleach to the res a while back, long before any of this started
Are plant's infected with pest'sNo. No mites, no thirps, no fungus gnats.

About a week ago I noticed the top growth on one of my plants was looking a bit thick and leathery. Also, the tips (just the tips) of the leaves at the top of the plant were pointing downward on most every plant in the table. At that time I was in the mid to high 700ppm range (500 conversion). The PPM was dropping daily so I assumed they were still eating, but I dropped the PPM to just under 700 just to be sure. A week later and the original plant is looking worse than ever and the problem is beginning to effect more plants. Oldest leaves are yellowing, tops of the plants show twisted new growth and intervenal chlorosis on the older top leaves.

Did a res change last night. Flushing with PH'd tap for 24 hours. When I get home from work today I plan to do another res change and start feeding them again but I'm unsure where my target nute strength should be to get them happy again. My gut is telling me I'm dealing with a touch of overfert (even though no real tip burn to be seen) or perhaps PH issues, but I'm not 100% sure and can't afford any more setbacks. This fickle little bitch of a strain is beginning to drive me nuts, and I need help getting back on track... please

 

[mdTHC420]

def looks like to high a pH that is causing nute lockout. ive seen in hydro to high a pH will cause the leathery looking leafs you described and keep the plant from using other nutes that a lower pH is required to uptake. now 5.5 to 6 isnt to bad a swing, but do u pH down the tap water when u flush?

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

I have this same thing happen from time to time. i do a coco veg to soil bloom it happens right when i up pot the coco to soil. i don't know for certain if its the ph or the shock from going under the 1k hps for the last 7 days of veg. but it last about a week then its gone. so im thinking it could be like mdthc420 says and is high ph, once my roots grow into the soil it goes away.

 

[deacon1503]

This looks an issue im dealing with right now. Ive decided its from a P deficiency developed when the clones were in the cloner, running clonex only for far to long and then the syptoms worsened when put into the UC. are your stems purple? what about the underside of the leaf? the lower leaves will start first pulling P from the tips. they will become dry and very brittle, then yellow. stems will turn purple or dark red. the growth is "hard" and there is an overall unhealthy look to the plant. the lack of P will stunt the overall growth of the plant, however the main trunk is the size of a healthy plants that should be twice as tall. I had slowed root growth as well. they were in the system for 13 days.

Good luck!

 

[mdTHC420]

soil is a lot more forgiving for ph fluctuation than coco or any form of hydro. ive watered same plants both in rock wool cubes and one in soil with same water around 7 ph and the leafs started to shrink up and get leathery for the rock wool.

 

[sensiBC]

def looks like to high a pH that is causing nute lockout. ive seen in hydro to high a pH will cause the leathery looking leafs you described and keep the plant from using other nutes that a lower pH is required to uptake. now 5.5 to 6 isnt to bad a swing, but do u pH down the tap water when u flush?

I absolutely do PH the water when I flush.

I'm almost beginning to suspect my meter, or possibly even the calibration solution I'm using. The first year+ I had the meter it was 100% accurate. I'd check calibration and it never needed adjustment. Well, I ended up stepping on the ph probe and cracked the plastic housing. Got a replacement probe from a local shop and some new calibration fluid to go with it. Looking back on it now it was somewhere around that time my plants, which were huge healthy and lush, first began showing a mag def that progressed until I had to chop them due to unrelated circumstances.

 

[xX Kid Twist Xx]

yeah my plants look great in coco i keep the ph in the high 5's its when i up pot into the last pot which i use promix for, i get that same look as in the 1st pic last about a week. the ph thing makes sense to me as i start to water with 6.5 ph when i hit soil with the coco rootball. it only happens to a few here and there and its over quick, the new sets of leaves come out fine.

the plant in the last pciture looks underfed to me as well i see a cal-mag issue as well as the tops of the leaves looking like mine.

 

[sensiBC]

This looks an issue im dealing with right now. Ive decided its from a P deficiency developed when the clones were in the cloner, running clonex only for far to long and then the syptoms worsened when put into the UC. are your stems purple? what about the underside of the leaf? the lower leaves will start first pulling P from the tips. they will become dry and very brittle, then yellow. stems will turn purple or dark red. the growth is "hard" and there is an overall unhealthy look to the plant. the lack of P will stunt the overall growth of the plant, however the main trunk is the size of a healthy plants that should be twice as tall. I had slowed root growth as well. they were in the system for 13 days.

Good luck!

The issues look very similar indeed. Out of curiosity, what type of system and nute regiment are you running? Have you found any solutions that seem to be working?

In my case I'm almost beginning to suspect that the nutes are present in my res, but they're unavailable to the plant at the moment. (Maybe not though, some are advising I add cal-mag as they suspect a lack of micros in my mix)

Lots of people on forums have said they suspect PH issues in my garden. Since my meter seems to hold it's calibration fairly well even with that newer probe it may very well be that my calibration solution is bad, but I've got both 4 and 7 Grotek solution so what are the chances?

To bring everyone up to date:

Earlier today I dropped the watering time to 15 on 30 off because someone suggested they looked over watered. Never heard of that in LP aero, but I'm game to see if it makes a difference. I'll grab a thermostat with a wired outdoor sensor and drop it in the table today to keep an eye on the temps in there. Don't want it heating up too much during that half hour dry time. DO levels and all. I'll also make sure they're not wilting too much during the off time (any more than they are already anyway).


I'll report back with the results from the PH strips once I get back from Christmas shopping at the mall. I'll need every gram of the killer Bubba I've got to get through it, lol.

 

[sensiBC]

I've heard overwatering, high ph, low ph, lack of micros, and in the end I'm kinda at a loss. I've got another plant in a hydroton drip bucket suffering the same problems. In that one I droped the ph to around 5 as indicated on my meter. In the aero table, I ph'd to an indicated 6.3. We'll see which one improves I guess. Hopefully something does, lmao.

I got a PH test kit for aquariums earlier, the drops and vial. The lowest it reads is 6.0, but from what I can tell my meter is pretty much accurate. Guess I'll keep an eye on things and see which of the systems shows improvement, if either.

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Could u elaborate your feeding schedule I would def. say an issue with the P. Some strains I grow do this coming out of the cloner but always correct themselves within the first week of nutes. When I ran the aeroflo 120 I always ran 5.4 to 5.6 pump running non stop if my pump shut off for more than a couple hours my plants would very sad maybe dead I dont think overwatering is your issue possible underfert or lockout due to tap water. I now run coco in 10 gallon smart pots ph 5.7 5.9. It very well could be your tap water sounds like u got a nice setup I highly reccomend ro for any hydro at least it eliminates the possible tap problems. And yes some strains wont mind the crap in your tap water while others wont like it. Some plants are picky some are not.

 

[tortuga1503]

I run E&F but a while back my plants did the same shit. I couldn`t put a finger on it. I switched pot size before the run and didn`t check the way the pots drained. Well all was great until the roots hit the bottom of the pot and were sitting in water. They looked exactly like yours. I figured it out drilled holes and bam within a few hours they already started to get happy.

 

[sensiBC]

Could u elaborate your feeding schedule I would def. say an issue with the P. Some strains I grow do this coming out of the cloner but always correct themselves within the first week of nutes. When I ran the aeroflo 120 I always ran 5.4 to 5.6 pump running non stop if my pump shut off for more than a couple hours my plants would very sad maybe dead I dont think overwatering is your issue possible underfert or lockout due to tap water. I now run coco in 10 gallon smart pots ph 5.7 5.9. It very well could be your tap water sounds like u got a nice setup I highly reccomend ro for any hydro at least it eliminates the possible tap problems. And yes some strains wont mind the crap in your tap water while others wont like it. Some plants are picky some are not.

As far as the feeding schedule, I'll give you a rundown from the beginning.

They came out of the EZ-Cloner which was running nothing but tap water. Went into the aero table using Calmag and pureblend bloom at quarter, then half strength. Things looked good but they pretty much just sat there till the roots hit the bottom of the table, then they started growing a bit. I was unhappy with all of the particulate from the pureblend in my pump filter, so switched to Maxibloom powder. Started that at half strength for a few days, then went up to full strength @ 700ppm (500 conversion). They exploded with new growth both foliage and roots. Foliage was green, lush, fan leaves were getting really large and they had an overall happy look to them, except the very tops of the plants had the very tips of their leaves pointed downwards. It was just the tips pointing down though, not the claw you see in the pics above. (and as often seen with over nitrification)

After a week or so I started pushing the nutes a bit and brought them to a little under 800ppm and they didn't seem to like it so I backed off to 700 and they didn't seem to improve. Flushed with ph'd tap for 24 hours, remixed maxibloom and tap to 700 again and they're still not improving, just getting worse by the day.

I've got the pump on an outdoor timer which was on for 15 minutes, then off for 15 minutes. I've since increased the off time to 30 minutes to see if allowing the roots to dry out a bit more would be of any help. Do you think I should be running the pump nonstop instead of cycling it to keep the misters misting and the nute solution aerated?

Maybe I'll grab an ro system tomorrow. Already planned to get a dehumidifier, so what the hell, I've invested too much to stop now even if my growing future does look bleak judging by current results.

Thanks everyone! Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!

 

[sensiBC]

I run E&F but a while back my plants did the same shit. I couldn`t put a finger on it. I switched pot size before the run and didn`t check the way the pots drained. Well all was great until the roots hit the bottom of the pot and were sitting in water. They looked exactly like yours. I figured it out drilled holes and bam within a few hours they already started to get happy.

Just went in there and took a look. Pump was running so I killed it and looked inside the table. It drained quickly and completely, no standing water afterwards. I increased the elevation of the table a bit just to be on the safe side.

Yesterday I decided to chase the potential PH issue a bit. Ran the aero table at 6.3 and the hyroton drip bucket I've got at close to 5 overnight. This morning the bucket's res ph had climbed to mid 5's and the aero tables was still at 6.3. The plant in the bucket looks a bit better today, maybe, while nothing in the aero table looks any better, and if anything looks worse than yesterday by a fair margin. Now this goes contrary to every nute availability chart I've seen as P and Mg are supposedly taken up best at higher ph levels, but what the heck, I dropped the PH of the table to the low 5's a few minutes ago and we'll see what they show.

Also turned the pump on 24/7 to see if maybe the 15-30 minute off time is suffocating them somehow.

I'm trying everything at this point looking for light at the end of the tunnel, but it seems like if it weren't for back luck I'd have no luck at all with this hobby... lately anyway.

 

[sensiBC]

Roots, no slime whatsoever:

 

[sincethe80s]

i am having the exact same problem right now with about 10 of em in my e&f in rockwool. the rest of the tables look good great growth but these 10 are stunted.. i calibrated my ph pen twice because i thought it was ph. i was ready to throw them out but decided to keep them and flower them to see if they come out of it.. been 2 weeks in flower and still the same!!!!!
i flushed them with ph water, still the same

right now i think it is overwatering so i gotta handwater the other 10 on the tray that are doing good. waiting to see the results.

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Man that thing looks like it works really similar as an aeroflo I would say u couldn't overwater that setup. I'm not familiar with that line of nutes so I'm not sure on that. Have you used this feeding schedule with success before it seems like that maxi is not a complete nute. Sounds like u could move those lights up but don't think that is your problem. If your looking for something easy with pretty good results check the lucas formula. I and many others have had great success with it. I ran it for a while on the week side. A lot of people may disagree but I won't run anything organic in these types of systems. run a weak lucas formula and 2-4 ml calmag per gal and 1 ml dm zone per gallon easy trouble free and good results.

 

[sensiBC]

Man that thing looks like it works really similar as an aeroflo I would say u couldn't overwater that setup. I'm not familiar with that line of nutes so I'm not sure on that. Have you used this feeding schedule with success before it seems like that maxi is not a complete nute. Sounds like u could move those lights up but don't think that is your problem. If your looking for something easy with pretty good results check the lucas formula. I and many others have had great success with it. I ran it for a while on the week side. A lot of people may disagree but I won't run anything organic in these types of systems. run a weak lucas formula and 2-4 ml calmag per gal and 1 ml dm zone per gallon easy trouble free and good results.

This is my first run with this line of nutes however Maxibloom is supposedly Lucas in powered form... more or less anyway. Take a peek at lucasformula.com if you get a sec. It says:

Lucas Formula using General Hydroponics Dry Nutrients (Maxibloom)

MaxiBloom and MaxiGro are dry nutrient also from General Hydroponics. It turns out, Maxibloom, used in a ratio of 7 grams per gallon of water*, is very close to the original Lucas Formula (above.) You do not need MaxiGro, and so this is the cheapest and easiest recipe to use.

Add 7 grams of Maxibloom into 1 gallon of water*, and then adjust the pH, and stir vigorously to dissolve the Maxibloom in the water. I advise putting the 7g of Maxibloom into a cup of warm water, dissolving it, and then adding it to the remaining gallon of water, before pH adjusting and mixing again.

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Hey dont get discouraged theres always a light at the end of the tunnel. Everyone I know uses the 1part micro to 2parts bloom. I obviously dont know but find it hard to believe that everything those girls want in one bag. micros? calmag? Looked at the lucas website and googled it couldn't find a lot just that it is supposed to be the same. Only powderd nutes ive used is gh koolbloom. Also I've taken many nice crops in an aeroflo never exceeding 700ppm. Some plants will do great at 400ppm through veg. Your tap ppms are low but I would still use RO. I clone with straight city tap 220ppm for me works better than ro.

 

[sensiBC]

Things keep getting worse. No idea what the problem could be at this point.

Foilar fed with cal mag and pureblend. Mixed a fresh res with 5ml cal mag per gallon plus Maxibloom, total ppm is in the 900's at the moment, ph in the mid 5's. Flipped the watering back to 15 on/15 off since earlier adjustments to watering times had no visible effect.

Grabbed a 70pt dehuey from Sears last night, gotta source an RO system from elsewhere as they only had one model and it got horrible reviews online.

If things don't improve within the next few days I'm not sure what I'll do. Nothing I've done so far has gotten them to improve and if anything they're looking worse than before.

Depressing isn't even the word for it. Half of me wants to take a bat to everything in the room, the other half wants to take the bat to myself for being an idiot who can't get even the simplest shit to work properly. When you can't even keep a weed happy in veg maybe it's time to reconsider gardening as a hobby. Maybe a nice rock collection instead, lol.

*sigh*

 

[mittenmedgrow]

Hey now don't get discouraged it took my awhile to figure it out u will. Just try to be patient. When u correct this problem it is gonna take a at least a few days to see improvement. You could fix the problem and not see any improvement the next day. If u can I would ditch the maxi and get a bottle of gh micro and gh bloom. Drain your res fill up with ph water run system for an hour drain it. Fill res ro water if u can add 4ml micro per gal 8ml bloom and 2ml cal mag, and 1ml zone as preventive measures. Ph and give it a few days. Check enviroment temp to high? lights to close? humidity not so important but helps. Like I said most plants in aero will veg great at 400ppm with a 1000watt 2-3ft above them. I found only minor deficiencies with the lucas. If your enviroment is decent the lucas will def. grow some decent plants. No matter what u try remember it might take a week to get better. Don't give up once you get it figured it all fun and games.