Understanding Ph

  • Thread starter Homesteader
  • Start date
  • Tagged users None
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263





As an organic farmer, I prefer to adjust my pH with my amendments in my mix to get the batch to around 6.3pH. The plant will naturally make the soil more acidic and the liming agents (crab/lobster) I use seem to become neutralized by them, because I seldom see ANY rise from day one on the mix provided I get a plant growing in it. The easiest way to adjust a soil mix and make it more acidic in my opinion is using peat while adding wood ash to raise them. Not saying this is the only/best way, just what I do.

Using Wood Ash on Your Farm
https://extension.umaine.edu/publications/2279e/
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
Resourcesph
Detailed Truog pH chart
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
Thanks @Ecompost for this one. A gem

The Effect of CaCO3 On Nitrogen Transformations

Soil pH affects the rates of several reactions involving N and can influence the efficiency of N use by plants. Nitrification, or the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to nitrate (NO3-) by soil bacteria, is most rapid in soils with pH values between 7 and 8. Nitrification approaches zero below pH 5. Ammonium-N fertilizers applied to calcareous soils are converted within a few days to nitrate, which moves freely with soil water. The acidity produced during nitrification is quickly neutralized in highly calcareous soils but may lower the pH value in soils containing low levels of CaCO3.

Ammonia volatilization is the loss of N to the atmosphere through conversion of the ammonium ion to ammonia gas (NH3). Volatilization of ammoniacal-N fertilizer is significant only if the soil surface pH value is greater than 7 where the fertilizer is applied. This condition occurs in calcareous soils, or where the breakdown of the N fertilizer produces alkaline conditions (e.g., urea decomposition). Nitrogen loss through ammonia volatilization on calcareous soils is a concern when ammoniacal N is applied to the grove floor and remains there without moving into the soil. Following an application of dry fertilizer containing ammoniacal N, the fertilizer should be moved into the root zone through irrigation or mechanical incorporation if rainfall is not imminent. Since urea breakdown creates alkaline conditions near the fertilizer particle, surface application of urea can cause N loss if the urea is not incorporated or irrigated into the soil, regardless of initial soil pH.

The Effect of CaCO3 On Magnesium and Potassium
Although low concentrations of Mg and K in citrus leaves are not uncommon in groves planted on calcareous soils, there is not necessarily a concurrent reduction in fruit yield or quality. If a low concentration of leaf K or Mg is found in a grove that produces satisfactory yield and quality, attempts to increase leaf levels with fertilizer are not necessary. However, if a detrimental condition such as low yield, small fruit, or creasing is observed, an attempt to raise the leaf K or Mg concentration with fertilizer is justified.

It is often difficult to increase leaf Mg and K levels with fertilizer applied directly to calcareous soils, which contain tremendous quantities of both exchangeable and nonexchangeable Ca. Leaf Mg and K concentrations are strongly influenced by soil conditions that control leaf Ca concentration, including high soil Ca levels. High Ca levels suppress Mg and K uptake by citrus trees in part, presumably, through the competition of Ca2+, Mg2+, and K+. Citrus growing on soils high in Ca often requires above normal levels of Mg and K fertilizer for satisfactory tree nutrition. In cases where soil-applied fertilizer is ineffective, the only means of increasing leaf Mg or K concentration may be through foliar application of water-soluble fertilizers, such as magnesium nitrate [Mg(NO3)2] or potassium nitrate (KNO3).

The Effect of CaCO3 On Phosphorus
Phosphorus availability in calcareous soils is almost always limited. The P concentration in the soil solution is the factor most closely related to P availability to plants. The sustainable concentration is related to the solid forms of P that dissolve to replenish soil solution P following its depletion by crop uptake. Many different solid forms of phosphorus exist in combination with Ca in calcareous soils. After P fertilizer is added to a calcareous soil, it undergoes a series of chemical reactions with Ca that decrease its solubility with time (a process referred to as P fixation). Consequently, the long-term availability of P to plants is controlled by the application rate of soluble P and the dissolution of fixed P. Applied P is available to replenish the soil solution for only a relatively short time before it converts to less soluble forms of P.

Testing Calcareous Soils for P
Accumulation and loss of soil P can be evaluated through soil testing, but more information is required to make a fertilizer recommendation based on this method. The amount of extractable P must be related to crop yield or quality. An ideal P-extracting solution should remove from soils only those forms of P that are available to plants. This is difficult to achieve with the extracting solutions that are currently used.

The major extractants used by southeastern U.S soil testing laboratories to measure soil P include Mehlich 1 (double acid), Bray P1 and P2, and sodium bicarbonate. Mehlich 1 is not appropriate for use on calcareous soils because its extracting ability is weakened by exposure to CaCO3. While Bray and sodium bicarbonate have been consistently correlated to P uptake by plants growing on calcareous soils in other parts of the United States, these extractants have not been calibrated with citrus leaf P concentration or yield on Florida calcareous soils. Mehlich 3, a newer extractant with promising ability for Florida conditions, is not yet widely used and also will require calibration. Currently, no suitable extractant for soil P has an established, calibrated sufficiency level for use with citrus grown on Florida calcareous soils.

The Effect of CaCO3 On Zinc and Manganese
Soil pH is the most important factor regulating Zn and Mn supply in alkaline soils. At alkaline (high) pH values, Zn and Mn form precipitous compounds with low water solubility, markedly decreasing their availability to plants. A soil pH value of less than 7 is preferred to ensure that Zn and Mn are available to plants in sufficient amounts. The soil around a plant root (the rhizosphere) tends to be acidic due to root exudation of H+ ions. Therefore, soils that are slightly alkaline may not necessarily be deficient in Zn or Mn. In addition, Zn and Mn can be chelated by natural organic compounds in the soil, a process that aids the movement of these nutrients to the plant root. On highly alkaline soils, however, Zn and Mn deficiencies are not uncommon. Soil applications of Zn and Mn fertilizers are generally ineffective in these situations, but deficiencies can be corrected through the use of foliar sprays.

The Effect of CaCO3 on Iron
Calcareous soils may contain high levels of total Fe, but in forms unavailable to plants. Visible Fe deficiency, or Fe chlorosis, is common in citrus. The term chlorosis signifies a yellowing of plant foliage, whereas Fe deficiency implies that leaf Fe concentration is low. Owing to the nature and causes of Fe chlorosis, however, Fe concentration is not necessarily related to degree of chlorosis. In chlorotic plants, Fe concentrations can be higher than, equal to, or lower than those in normal plants. Thus, this disorder on calcareous soils is not always attributable to Fe deficiency. It may be a condition known as lime-induced Fe chlorosis.Iron is considerably less soluble than Zn or Mn in soils with a pH value of 8. Thus, inorganic Fe contributes relatively little to the Fe nutrition of plants in calcareous soils. Most of the soluble Fe in the soil is complexed by natural organic compounds. (Fe nutrition in plants has improved in response to the application of sewage sludge, which contains organically complexed Fe.) The primary factor associated with Fe chlorosis under calcareous conditions appears to be the effect of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) on Fe uptake and/or translocation in the plant. The result is Fe inactivation or immobilization in plant tissue.

Susceptibility to Fe chlorosis depends on a plant's response to Fe deficiency stress, which is controlled genetically. Citrus rootstocks vary widely in their ability to overcome low Fe stress (see Table 2). The easiest way to avoid lime-induced Fe chlorosis in citrus trees to be planted on calcareous soils is to use tolerant rootstocks. Existing Fe chlorosis can be corrected by using organic chelates

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ch086
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
High pH- Again I realize that this is not apples to oranges but.............
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
Thanks @Ecompost for this one. A gem

The Effect of CaCO3 On Nitrogen Transformations

Soil pH affects the rates of several reactions involving N and can influence the efficiency of N use by plants. Nitrification, or the conversion of ammonium (NH4+) to nitrate (NO3-) by soil bacteria, is most rapid in soils with pH values between 7 and 8. Nitrification approaches zero below pH 5. Ammonium-N fertilizers applied to calcareous soils are converted within a few days to nitrate, which moves freely with soil water. The acidity produced during nitrification is quickly neutralized in highly calcareous soils but may lower the pH value in soils containing low levels of CaCO3.

Ammonia volatilization is the loss of N to the atmosphere through conversion of the ammonium ion to ammonia gas (NH3). Volatilization of ammoniacal-N fertilizer is significant only if the soil surface pH value is greater than 7 where the fertilizer is applied. This condition occurs in calcareous soils, or where the breakdown of the N fertilizer produces alkaline conditions (e.g., urea decomposition). Nitrogen loss through ammonia volatilization on calcareous soils is a concern when ammoniacal N is applied to the grove floor and remains there without moving into the soil. Following an application of dry fertilizer containing ammoniacal N, the fertilizer should be moved into the root zone through irrigation or mechanical incorporation if rainfall is not imminent. Since urea breakdown creates alkaline conditions near the fertilizer particle, surface application of urea can cause N loss if the urea is not incorporated or irrigated into the soil, regardless of initial soil pH.

The Effect of CaCO3 On Magnesium and Potassium
Although low concentrations of Mg and K in citrus leaves are not uncommon in groves planted on calcareous soils, there is not necessarily a concurrent reduction in fruit yield or quality. If a low concentration of leaf K or Mg is found in a grove that produces satisfactory yield and quality, attempts to increase leaf levels with fertilizer are not necessary. However, if a detrimental condition such as low yield, small fruit, or creasing is observed, an attempt to raise the leaf K or Mg concentration with fertilizer is justified.

It is often difficult to increase leaf Mg and K levels with fertilizer applied directly to calcareous soils, which contain tremendous quantities of both exchangeable and nonexchangeable Ca. Leaf Mg and K concentrations are strongly influenced by soil conditions that control leaf Ca concentration, including high soil Ca levels. High Ca levels suppress Mg and K uptake by citrus trees in part, presumably, through the competition of Ca2+, Mg2+, and K+. Citrus growing on soils high in Ca often requires above normal levels of Mg and K fertilizer for satisfactory tree nutrition. In cases where soil-applied fertilizer is ineffective, the only means of increasing leaf Mg or K concentration may be through foliar application of water-soluble fertilizers, such as magnesium nitrate [Mg(NO3)2] or potassium nitrate (KNO3).

The Effect of CaCO3 On Phosphorus
Phosphorus availability in calcareous soils is almost always limited. The P concentration in the soil solution is the factor most closely related to P availability to plants. The sustainable concentration is related to the solid forms of P that dissolve to replenish soil solution P following its depletion by crop uptake. Many different solid forms of phosphorus exist in combination with Ca in calcareous soils. After P fertilizer is added to a calcareous soil, it undergoes a series of chemical reactions with Ca that decrease its solubility with time (a process referred to as P fixation). Consequently, the long-term availability of P to plants is controlled by the application rate of soluble P and the dissolution of fixed P. Applied P is available to replenish the soil solution for only a relatively short time before it converts to less soluble forms of P.

Testing Calcareous Soils for P
Accumulation and loss of soil P can be evaluated through soil testing, but more information is required to make a fertilizer recommendation based on this method. The amount of extractable P must be related to crop yield or quality. An ideal P-extracting solution should remove from soils only those forms of P that are available to plants. This is difficult to achieve with the extracting solutions that are currently used.

The major extractants used by southeastern U.S soil testing laboratories to measure soil P include Mehlich 1 (double acid), Bray P1 and P2, and sodium bicarbonate. Mehlich 1 is not appropriate for use on calcareous soils because its extracting ability is weakened by exposure to CaCO3. While Bray and sodium bicarbonate have been consistently correlated to P uptake by plants growing on calcareous soils in other parts of the United States, these extractants have not been calibrated with citrus leaf P concentration or yield on Florida calcareous soils. Mehlich 3, a newer extractant with promising ability for Florida conditions, is not yet widely used and also will require calibration. Currently, no suitable extractant for soil P has an established, calibrated sufficiency level for use with citrus grown on Florida calcareous soils.

The Effect of CaCO3 On Zinc and Manganese
Soil pH is the most important factor regulating Zn and Mn supply in alkaline soils. At alkaline (high) pH values, Zn and Mn form precipitous compounds with low water solubility, markedly decreasing their availability to plants. A soil pH value of less than 7 is preferred to ensure that Zn and Mn are available to plants in sufficient amounts. The soil around a plant root (the rhizosphere) tends to be acidic due to root exudation of H+ ions. Therefore, soils that are slightly alkaline may not necessarily be deficient in Zn or Mn. In addition, Zn and Mn can be chelated by natural organic compounds in the soil, a process that aids the movement of these nutrients to the plant root. On highly alkaline soils, however, Zn and Mn deficiencies are not uncommon. Soil applications of Zn and Mn fertilizers are generally ineffective in these situations, but deficiencies can be corrected through the use of foliar sprays.

The Effect of CaCO3 on Iron
Calcareous soils may contain high levels of total Fe, but in forms unavailable to plants. Visible Fe deficiency, or Fe chlorosis, is common in citrus. The term chlorosis signifies a yellowing of plant foliage, whereas Fe deficiency implies that leaf Fe concentration is low. Owing to the nature and causes of Fe chlorosis, however, Fe concentration is not necessarily related to degree of chlorosis. In chlorotic plants, Fe concentrations can be higher than, equal to, or lower than those in normal plants. Thus, this disorder on calcareous soils is not always attributable to Fe deficiency. It may be a condition known as lime-induced Fe chlorosis.Iron is considerably less soluble than Zn or Mn in soils with a pH value of 8. Thus, inorganic Fe contributes relatively little to the Fe nutrition of plants in calcareous soils. Most of the soluble Fe in the soil is complexed by natural organic compounds. (Fe nutrition in plants has improved in response to the application of sewage sludge, which contains organically complexed Fe.) The primary factor associated with Fe chlorosis under calcareous conditions appears to be the effect of the bicarbonate ion (HCO3) on Fe uptake and/or translocation in the plant. The result is Fe inactivation or immobilization in plant tissue.

Susceptibility to Fe chlorosis depends on a plant's response to Fe deficiency stress, which is controlled genetically. Citrus rootstocks vary widely in their ability to overcome low Fe stress (see Table 2). The easiest way to avoid lime-induced Fe chlorosis in citrus trees to be planted on calcareous soils is to use tolerant rootstocks. Existing Fe chlorosis can be corrected by using organic chelates

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ch086

Excellent post well placed bro. Share the knowledge, protect the soils general negative charge, and your pockets.
It has long puzzled me, even when we are at our most base and consider the soil nothing more than a substrate for Cations and Anions, that as humans, we have been convinced that an answer to a problem, itself a root of too many +ions in what should be a - field, is to apply more +'ves. It is for me the very essence of human absurdity.
Of course lime is a wonder treatment if you are in the business of selling mugs more world war 1 chemical weapons stockpiles to "feed the plants". Any self standing SEO will happily lead you up the path to destruction, when you type soil acidification, if they can make money while you melt, why would they care?

The theme on application of Lime is you buy more of everything else to compensate, and what do we think the outcome of this stupidity will be?

Dont use lime, use organic matter, compost and life. Save your money, save the greenhouse gases, stop destroying soil carbon with synthetic NH4+ or NO3- or get ready to waste your time.

Give me a day to get my head together after just getting reconnected to the world and I will upload some pictures from our citrus orchard. This being on highly calcareous soil clearly showing the influence of lime induced Fe matters.
Having just picked up the plot, we are working now to fix the matter, organically of course.
The previous owner has riden the soil as a base for his cations and anions having been miss led by big AG, and now the trees are paying the price.
This is however a most excellent project for me, and if we can recover the plants, it will be a spanking for local methods :-)
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
Wow E, I had no clue we were so far apart on lime but then again I get more conservative in my thinking with age. I certainly would have believed that in my past.
One of the biggest misunderstanding I believe in the no till/organic soil growers is the thinking that root exudates will correct any issues with pH with an annual crop.
Let me rephrase, fixing th pH while utilizing ALL of the soil and to be honest this is why I am so critical of Elaine and her following.
:)
 
Last edited:
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
Wow E, I had no clue we were so far apart on lime but then again I get more conservative in my thinking with age. I certainly would have believed that in my past.
One of the biggest misunderstanding I believe in the no till/organic soil growers is the thinking that root exudates will correct any issues with pH with an annual crop.
Let me rephrase, fixing th pH while utilizing ALL of the soil and to be honest this is why I am so critical of Elaine and her following.
:)
combinations of passive and active acquisition will always out weigh passive alone. Its not just plant root exudates, although these have a pronounced impact locally, it is a combination of microbes releasing various organic acids and other complex compounds, such as fungus that enable the process naturally.
I go back to the forest, no one is feeding or liming the forest, but there is a constant recycling of organic matter which helps to balance soil pH to feed the many plants that grow among the many differing conditions that exist environmentally.
What we need to be is realistic imo and big AG is entirely unrealistic about limes effects on tackling what is a fundamental problem of electrical imbalance in any substrate, caused more often than not, by increasing soil CO2 levels and so pH swings, themselves environmental, or biological, either natural or man made if this is natural?.
Both biologically and chemically, to date we are failing to convince people on mass that we are at the root of the problem and that either side has a simple to apply solution, but we can also be sure that big AG is in the business of making money based on water soluble and soil as a base for cations and anions, it has vast resources to pay SEO and search engines to return the results of lime for any soil acidification matter, but lime is a sticking plaster at best, a practice to be repeated, over and over by mono culture farmers whose lives depend on any same annual harvest making the grade to support their families, but in the end, all that is happening is a layer of cation salts are building up, and the problems of nutrient retention and availability subject to pH are a result of CO2 levels in the soil and or free radical saturation of what should be negative clays and or sands etc, themselves accumulating and reducing fungal counts and so organic acids which help plants gain access to vital metals like Fe where otherwise calcareous conditions prevent the pH levels from dropping to the range where by these metals can be released from the phosphate bonds, leading to both the Fe and P matters as levels of available easy access CalPhos drop due to usage preferences relating to lighter bonds and said plant exudates capacity. Death of fungus means death to a major component of soil pH balance and so also an ability to free bound phosphates safely from say Al bonds. There will be a price to pay for any plant living in a world of limited access, and even with fungus, the cost to free tightly bound phosphates by any fungal mass is high and may be this wont happen in the time frame modern markets demand, but we all know fungus dies from a lack of organic matter and biological grows and growers must pay attention to the soil conditions for wider reasons than harvest result today if they are to convince the die hards that the old ways are more sustainable, but we can most certainly know that soil wants to move away from a state which supports only annual life, and we want to keep annual crops going., we cant find enough free space to continue on an annual heavy diet and ag model imo and lime is no solution here where calc levels are already in the danger zone. What does help me free up my Fe, Zn, Mn K, Mg and P is humates and organic acids in combination with fungus
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
I have yet to see a forest grow well when it is cut every year. I think comparing annual production to forestry makes little sense. Just my 2 pesos

SOM by cover crop comes at a cost, whether it be seed, time and season but I agree at the importance of creating SOM, I just feel the best way to get that is by creating an environment that best suits growing of microbes, roots and residue to produce at optimum levels

pH, carbon and calcium levels being high on the list
 
Last edited:
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I have yet to see a forest grow well when it is cut every year. I think comparing annual production to forestry makes little sense. Just my 2 pesos

SOM by cover crop comes at a cost, whether it be seed, time and season but I agree at the importance of creating SOM, I just feel the best way to get that is by creating an environment that best suits growing of microbes, roots and residue to produce at optimum levels

pH, carbon and calcium levels being high on the list
I grow a forest garden mate, it grows very well, I dot beds for annuals about the place, changing this as the longer term plants, or I get bored and want something else.

We get problems mate, but as a rule we get good harvests on pretty much all crop types we plant, I match my plants to my biology and this this includes the annuals which grow in far lower fungal counts but high in bacteria, i dont use fungal products or waste time brewing high fungal count teas but I get excellent growth on all common annuals for food markets using simple bacteria, a few timed chelates, and plenty of worms etc. Annuals are growing in deep beds of woodchip and high grade compost, as these rotate, the conditions become more custom to perennials, so we do what the biology dictates as time progresses, rather than try to force the issue so much.
We of course have commitments, it is how we live too, but we do or have done and tried all sorts, from using synths and the like, plastic sheeting, cardboard and we use piles and piles of well composted woodchips and organic matter now in the main, and we do plant covers, mostly resow from naturalized stock saving us money. Currently the SOM levels on average = 6% which was our target marker for the rainfall in this area (14 days).
We dont add much by way of nutrients, some organic N and some chelates which are mainly Fe, Mn, Zn, , but we dont get the problems many do here with the lock out types descirbed in the post above, esp on the bulk of our citrus, our main play here, and most people lime heavily here and use far more water every year than I would dream of using without feeling I was taking it from someone else. the amount leaking in the dodgy irrigation systems here is enough to make you whince. if i order water, by the time it gets down to us here, 1/3 or more will be wasted but i will still pay for all 100%.
We dont need to add calcium here, but appreciate its value and do elsewhere, its already at levels that far exceed our need here and adding it would further complicate matters.
We have been know to use other products in soil, say granular then raked in, but over time we have become less dependent as our soil profile has deepened giving our plants more space to be. I think we produce enough bio mass and so compost and woodchip, enough humates and oxalates and other organic acids, carbohydrates to get everything we need and enough to have excess which we can spread wider. it takes time, but in the end, it pays off imo. We are more profitable now than at any point, and this includes the corrections on market values. This is entirely down to a reduction in adds overall.
When i was hooked on salts, I had to close my eyes and give over to faith as I changed to organics, people thought I was mad then, that was 20+ years ago, people still look at me like I am crazy and dont beleive us when I talk about our water use etc, odd when no one batts an eye lid if you say i have faith in God, but thats true also, and his design before us will still be running after we are gone imo.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
oh and when i say forest garden it is 10 acres around the house. We have larger spaces in hectares but off site for me as they say
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
I have yet to see a forest grow well when it is cut every year. I think comparing annual production to forestry makes little sense. Just my 2 pesos

SOM by cover crop comes at a cost, whether it be seed, time and season but I agree at the importance of creating SOM, I just feel the best way to get that is by creating an environment that best suits growing of microbes, roots and residue to produce at optimum levels

pH, carbon and calcium levels being high on the list
added, the reduction in cost of fertiliser application and water management, far exceed the cost of cover cropping imo. This isnt instant mate, it takes time, for living proof around you, go check out David Brandt, Gabe Brown and his farm

or just watch this
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

5,134
313
orange tree foreground, Almond tree behind, all organic, no lime or other added pH buffer but we do top up organic matter. This is a new site and we are fixing the past
 
20170328 122010
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
Yeah bro- I dont buy it and wont for my farm. I absolutely use every resource I can on my farm in a sustainable way and I am completely organic, but I don't live in a land of unicorn shit and pixie piss amendments like the cult that Elaine has produced $$$, and in my opinion she is a hack along with the baseless knowledge she has asserts as fact. I don't need anymore of her misguiding theory that have been regurgitated from her mouth. I see everyday.

I am college educated kinda ( community college/Building Materials:) ) but that doesn't prevent me from seeing through bullshit and she has a huge red banner waving along with her army of aimless followers.
I am not saying go out and buy some roundup but what I am saying is take a look at her teachings with open eyes bro, when I did I realized she was full of shit on many things.

Good luck squeezing the feldspar and getting nutrients this season though. It works with the forest right?

I certainly wish you and yours well on the new farm though.
 
Last edited:
Homesteader

Homesteader

3,477
263
I am not against cover crops obviously, I just disagree with how they project the benefit to the masses who easily adopt nonsense because some cult leaders teachings who sounds smart and is soooo kind and friendly. Her teachings along with it being regurgitated in Teaming books are ultimately setting us back as a human race getting into a group thing with her benefiting $$$.

Not trying to make friends just telling it like I see it (actually could probably count them with a middle finger but see if I care).

Dynamic Accumulators=nonsense. Show me a plant that isn't one?

Don't fret, I believed a lot of horse shit in my life and most likely still do. Whatever floats peoples boats, I just strive to cut through bullshit and nothing more. Look at the facts and look what she teaches. There is NO way she doesn't know that she is serving up bullshit.....NO WAY


I will never be certified organic either, what a waste of money for bureaucratic bullshit and paying pencil pushers.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom