Using a PUREWATERCLUB or any RO filter setup? You may be wasting $$$ and water

[fiftythree33]

I discovered something that is very interesting to me today, thought I would share. I purchased a PWC filter setup on the recommendation from users on this forum as I'm sure many have. This is not an attempt to call PWC or any other company out about anything. PWC is a great company they ship free and have great equipment for cheap. But...

The pictures and instructions for any RO filter that includes a DI (De-Ionized) stage on PUREWATERCLUB.com show incorrectly configured filters. The result of running the filters as pictured will indeed be 0ppm clean water but at the expense of the most expensive filter in the system, the RO membrane. This is NOT limited to PWC I just found another user recommended filter doing the same thing.

They are running the DI filter after the RO membrane in every picture I've checked. The DI filter is inferior and redundant when run AFTER the RO membrane. When placed BEFORE the RO filter the DI filter will remove nearly all hard water minerals which will prolong the life of the RO membrane. The DI filter produces 0ppm water for a fraction of the cost and most importantly ZERO WASTE! The RO filter takes that 0ppm water and removes nearly everything else that "could" be in it. Some of us may not actually need an RO membrane at all.

Take a look at this chart

From that info it seems that DI filtration is just as effective at removing the bulk of contaminates in our water as RO membranes.

I've been running my RO system without the DI filter since I bought it because I got 0ppm after the RO membrane. The instructions/photo left me thinking the DI was unnecessary/useless because they showed it running after the RO membrane. I plugged it in today after I discovered the 3 stages before the RO were not dropping the PPM levels at all!!! My water starts at 550ppm, after the first 3 stages it's still 550ppm!! Plugged the DI in after the 3 pre-filters... 0ppm. (would have helped to read PWC a little closer as they mention 0ppm on the DI filters but still list it as stage 6 with every filter set.)

This may not seem like a big deal to some but it should be. With every gallon of RO water I make I waste 2 gallons, possibly more. With every gallon of hard water you put through that RO membrane you clog/slow down the filter and produce even more waste. My new 100gpd RO membrane running with the DI before is putting out 72 gallons a day. Before I changed the RO filter and without the DI I was getting 40 at first then down to 20 gal per day from the exact same brand and GPD RO filter.

When I have the money I'm having the DI filtered water analyzed to find out whats left in it. If I can eliminate the RO membrane and all that wasted water I'm going to be a very happy farmer!

This setup cracks me up... (the 3 blue capped housing are the DI filters)

This really makes me wonder, who thinks they need this setup and why they think that.

:bong-hits:

 

[Seamaiden]

I have a similar set-up, am using the 6-stage unit. I'll be reading those links when I have more time, I just had to change out the filters and the one thing they didn't send me with the kit was the RO membrane. I'm having problems with one of the DI cartridges because it leaks, despite putting on as much Teflon tape (the pink stuff, not the white) as we thought would do the trick.

ALL that said, I have already gone the DI-only route, using a liquid DI resin and my growing results were not the same.

Alright, I'm looking at some links here. Yep, you've linked to the PWC thread on here. You've linked to the RO Guys, who, guess what... have the DI unit coming AFTER the membrane. The chart you've posted is claiming that distillation does not remove 100% of chlorine, and I would dispute that assertion because distilled water is the ONLY instance in which water can be claimed to be truly purified and not just filtered, no matter how well filtered. Also, knowing how chlorine behaves it makes no sense that distillation, which uses heat, would not remove it. That leaves a large shred of doubt in my mind as to the accuracy of the claims in the chart. Reading more...

The chart uses a list of diseases and, for some reason, which filtration would remove the mineral or chemical responsible for the disease (HUH? WTF??), and one of the "diseases" listed is "Notalgia", for which I can find no medical definition. I have to assume they meant "nostalgia", and give me a fucking break, nostalgia as a disease? What's next, melancholy?

The entire site at this point is highly suspect. Calculus (I must assume they're talking about calcareous bodies/objects such as kidney stones), again, calling bullshit, removing calcium (what form of calcium?) isn't going to "cure" kidney stones, just ask me about that.

Anorexia???? Seriously?


Don't believe everything you read. ;)

 

[Str8Dank]

hmm well the filters are cheap so its no big deal to me. i run a PWC on a 50 gal barrel with a float switch and a 50 gal ebb and flow with 30 pots that use 15 gal a day and after 3 runs my ppm are at 17. if i have to replace a $30 filter once a year its no big deal.

 

[Lost]

Its a hundred bucks and you buy a new one each year. I don't really care about the filters. I get very low PPM's and i'll replace the entire unit rather than replacing the filters. I thought the DI was to get rid of the few impurities left behind after the membrane.. Seems like you would burn thru the DI material pretty fast without the membrane before it to dump the majority of crap in the water.. :)

 

[Seamaiden]

My DI cartridges, the used ones, look almost exactly like the new ones, though it was difficult to tell before all were saturated. Yes, the DI removes the last little bits of "stuff".

As to the point of wasted water using RO or RO/DI, yep, it's pretty much a given. Use that water elsewhere, as I do. For instance, it keeps the animals' water tubs filled. My dogwood that needs as much water as the rhododendrons and my acid-loving planter box plants gets the direct waste-water line. And so on, and so on.

That waste can be mitigated, too. I have a permeate pump that boosts pressure on the membrane which increases efficacy. If the water pressure going into the unit is not sufficient then a booster pump will also increase efficacy. That said, wastewater will not be eliminated from the RO equation any time soon.

 

[Disco Duck]

Water is never "wasted", especially not within a city water system. All the "wasted" water going down the drain is going right back into the city's water system. The only "waste" involved is in making the city clean and filter the same water again when you didn't actually use it for something.

"Wasting" water is a myth. Water simply changes forms in an endless cycle, it doesn't actually ever go anywhere, get used up, or dissapear from existance.

 

[motherlode]

My DI cartridges, the used ones, look almost exactly like the new ones, though it was difficult to tell before all were saturated. Yes, the DI removes the last little bits of "stuff".

As to the point of wasted water using RO or RO/DI, yep, it's pretty much a given. Use that water elsewhere, as I do. For instance, it keeps the animals' water tubs filled. My dogwood that needs as much water as the rhododendrons and my acid-loving planter box plants gets the direct waste-water line. And so on, and so on.

That waste can be mitigated, too. I have a permeate pump that boosts pressure on the membrane which increases efficacy. If the water pressure going into the unit is not sufficient then a booster pump will also increase efficacy. That said, wastewater will not be eliminated from the RO equation any time soon.

what pump you using for this SM?

my pressure is on the low side but the want like 180 bux for the pump

 

[Seamaiden]

Just the permeate pump, ml, because our pressure out of the tap averages 60psi (as long as we keep the filter feeding the house changed out) which is sufficient for good performance. But, I wanted to mitigate how much of my *well water* (we are not served by any municipality) is allowed to drain away or go into the septic system, thusly, the permeate pump that PWC sells on their site. I paid $55 for it, added it to the RO/DI package.

Permeate pumps are different than booster pumps, btw. A booster does just that, boosts pressure of the water going into the filter, and requires power to do that. A permeate pump is an inline kind of thing, and you can hear the mechanism inside it pumping as pressure builds, and is then released (pushed through the membrane).

 

[motherlode]

lol thx for taking me to pump school

 

[Dr.stickerdick]

The reason for the D/I after the R/O is because the D/I has a far shorter life span (the amount of TDS )than the R/O . The R/O takes aprox. 90% out so then the D/I takes that down to 0 PPM . The D/I tanks can be regenerated some what like a watersoftener which the water should go true first. So , it should be after the R/O. Peace

 

[fiftythree33]

Water is never "wasted", especially not within a city water system. All the "wasted" water going down the drain is going right back into the city's water system. The only "waste" involved is in making the city clean and filter the same water again when you didn't actually use it for something.

"Wasting" water is a myth. Water simply changes forms in an endless cycle, it doesn't actually ever go anywhere, get used up, or dissapear from existance.

A major factor in the waste issue for me is the 30 year old septic and drain field I have to put all that water down. We've already had issues and I can't really route around it at this time.

*Warning* I did one quick search but don't have enough time to really go and find some good evidence of water loss.

Water levels in some parts of it, including western Kansas, have dropped as much as 200 feet since the aquifer was first tapped into in the 1940s.

So then, where did it go? People have to drill deeper and deeper wells but we aren't losing fresh water?

 

[fiftythree33]

Its a hundred bucks and you buy a new one each year. I don't really care about the filters. I get very low PPM's and i'll replace the entire unit rather than replacing the filters. I thought the DI was to get rid of the few impurities left behind after the membrane.. Seems like you would burn thru the DI material pretty fast without the membrane before it to dump the majority of crap in the water.. :)

Wow, man seriously wow. I can understand the laziness but what a waste of resources. You SHOULD be getting 0ppm out of that RO membrane and I don't understand why you don't. You can refill the DI for less than 5 bucks and it should last, if you run two in series, easily 1000 gallons.

So think of it this way... by putting all the crap in your water through the RO membrane first you are making it fail prematurely. Do you know what is in that low ppm water you're using? Do you think it could possibly be the harmful stuff that the RO membrane was the only capable filter to remove but missed it because it was too busy remove calcium and mag?

Read that chart for at least that portion. The RO is removing all of the harmful stuff while the DI cannot. The RO membrane should give you 0ppm water, if you are getting anything else it has failed.

This seems so cut and dry for me because I tested it with my TDS meter. I'd rather send 0ppm water to the RO membrane than 550ppm. I don't need a chart to tell me that is the better or correct way.

 

[nucleotide]

Interesting thought, although I always felt that it made sense that the DI came after the RO, but I'm no water filter expert at all. Its worth looking at. Thanks for the info.

 

[fiftythree33]

what pump you using for this SM?

my pressure is on the low side but the want like 180 bux for the pump

Get any pond pump that has threaded in and out and you can get 1/4" macro fittings from Home Depot. Worked well but it blew the o-ring in my pump after a couple hundred gallons. Of course that was putting 550ppm water through the RO will try it again with a new pump when I have funds. (can't find the fitting on HD.com, I'll post a pic of mine.)

The permeate pumps work like Seamaiden said with the pressure in the system but you need pressure to begin with... not sure if she mentioned that.

 

[fiftythree33]

I have a similar set-up, am using the 6-stage unit. I'll be reading those links when I have more time, I just had to change out the filters and the one thing they didn't send me with the kit was the RO membrane. I'm having problems with one of the DI cartridges because it leaks, despite putting on as much Teflon tape (the pink stuff, not the white) as we thought would do the trick.

ALL that said, I have already gone the DI-only route, using a liquid DI resin and my growing results were not the same.

Alright, I'm looking at some links here. Yep, you've linked to the PWC thread on here. You've linked to the RO Guys, who, guess what... have the DI unit coming AFTER the membrane. The chart you've posted is claiming that distillation does not remove 100% of chlorine, and I would dispute that assertion because distilled water is the ONLY instance in which water can be claimed to be truly purified and not just filtered, no matter how well filtered. Also, knowing how chlorine behaves it makes no sense that distillation, which uses heat, would not remove it. That leaves a large shred of doubt in my mind as to the accuracy of the claims in the chart. Reading more...

The chart uses a list of diseases and, for some reason, which filtration would remove the mineral or chemical responsible for the disease (HUH? WTF??), and one of the "diseases" listed is "Notalgia", for which I can find no medical definition. I have to assume they meant "nostalgia", and give me a fucking break, nostalgia as a disease? What's next, melancholy?

The entire site at this point is highly suspect. Calculus (I must assume they're talking about calcareous bodies/objects such as kidney stones), again, calling bullshit, removing calcium (what form of calcium?) isn't going to "cure" kidney stones, just ask me about that.

Anorexia???? Seriously?


Don't believe everything you read. ;)

I ignored the disease portion of the chart but here's another chart...

Link

The DI cartridge we use is a mixture of both Cation and Anion Exchange resins.

As you can see DI removes all the hard crap and leaves the RO to do the job it is actually meant to do.

 

[fiftythree33]

Interesting thought, although I always felt that it made sense that the DI came after the RO, but I'm no water filter expert at all. Its worth looking at. Thanks for the info.

I tossed the DI aside and didn't use it for almost a year... If I had paid attention to the wording on PWC I would have been using it all this time and wouldn't have had to spend $60 on new filters.

DI (De-Ionized) filter
to remove hard water minerals

14000 Gallons of 0ppm water for $85.

I was just reading that other chart I posted http://www.cyber-nook.com/water/treatment-table.html it has ~price per gallon for RO as $.10 to $.20 and combined C&A Exchange is .02 per gal

Just read on PWC.com

Recommend TDS not to exceed 500

Running the DI before the RO = extended life of membrane = peace of mind that all the bad crap is being removed for the entire life of the membrane.

 

[fiftythree33]

Water must have a very low silt (solids) content to keep the membranes from plugging up. This can be accomplished by removing the solids or keeping them in suspension while passing through the system. Chemicals can be added to the incoming water to keep the solids in suspension or efficient filtration can be used. We prefer to remove all solids before the system, which results in the lowest rate of membrane plugging.

As the water passes through the reverse osmosis system, the ionic content of the reject stream increases as water permeates the membranes. This increase in TDS can results in calcium and magnesium (the hardness ions) precipitating out in the system and plugging the membranes. Again, either the Calcium and Magnesium can be removed or a chemical can be added to keep them in solution. We prefer using a water softener to remove the hardness ions and replace them with sodium.

Not sure if sodium registers on TDS meters? I would think so but I show 0ppm after the DI before the RO.

 

[Seamaiden]

Yes, sodium registers on EC/TDS/ppm meters (TDS & ppm are actually a conversion of EC measurements. In fact, NaCl is one of the solutions used for calibration.

Not sure if you missed what I posted before, but I've already tried using a deionizing resin alone (a liquid resin) and it did not give me the good growing results that using a complete RO/DI system netted me. I got 0ppm (had no EC meter at that time) and undetectable levels of both carbonate and general hardness, but clearly there was something else going on there that I cannot adequately test for at home.

Just an FYI, one of the chemicals that can be used to cause solids to clump together is potassium permanganate, and it's a GORGEOUS purple color. Stains very badly, so be careful handling it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_permanganate

I have an extensive aquatic background and knowledge in creating biotopes for aquatic organisms. So, not so much with potable water, but very much with water that's good for living organisms.

 

[fiftythree33]

Yes I've read every post but missed commenting on that statement. I could be wrong here and would like to know more about the results and what was different...

From what you've posted either the liquid resin you used was exchanging something harmful to plants to remove minerals. Or, something is in your well water that a DI exchange cannot remove.

You also mentioned that you are feeding plants with the waste water from your RO membrane. This tells me that the harmful element was added by the DI resin you used. If the problem was in your water the waste stream would be a concentrated mix of what gave you problems during that DI only run.

This just gives me more reason to have the DI filtered water tested. That'll tell me if I'm giving my dogs any toxins from the tap. Have you had your tap tested? I'd be concerned myself, looking forward to getting mine tested asap.

Thanks for the discussion Seamaiden :bong-hits:

 

[Dr.stickerdick]

Hey 53, you can use just D/I and carbon and forget about the R/O and get 250 MEG Ohm water,,,, if you want to. Peace

Seamaiden, I use a product that takes off Potassium permagenate stains from concrete or your hands.