Water Fluoridation Discussion

[squiggly]

This thread was moved from the aspartame in milk discussion.

Also don't forget peeps that Flouride is a serious poison that should be avoided at all costs. check with everywhere and make sure they don't use flouridated water to water crops or as a source for bottled water.

I don't want to be seen as supporting water fluoridation, because I don't--but I would argue that there really isn't much of any evidence out there that fluoridation is exceptionally bad.

Also its important to note that fluoride is an element and is a component of many beneficial molecules, so fluoride--strictly speaking--isn't the problem.

Fluoridation of water might be a problem, but that's different than just saying avoid all fluoride.

Polonium, for instance, is an element that you should avoid--no matter what it is in.

Fluoride provides benefit, and that is known. It also very fuckin well could be ultra detrimental to people in the long run--which is why I don't support it. However the truth is that we just don't know.

By all means caution everyone as you have, and I would even follow that advice myself (I can and do avoid fluoridated water).

I think you crossed the line by saying with such conviction that it's very bad, though. The jury is out on that still.

My contention is that it's very bad because we don't know (and I feel the same about most medications), but that isn't the same as it's very bad because its poisonous to you and causes all kinds of ailments.

 

[dirk d]

I don't want to be seen as supporting water fluoridation, because I don't--but I would argue that there really isn't much of any evidence out there that fluoridation is exceptionally bad.

Also its important to note that fluoride is an element and is a component of many beneficial molecules, so fluoride--strictly speaking--isn't the problem.
.

When it comes to Flouridation Squiggly it is VERY BAD! There has been many scientific studies done that prove that Flouridation of our Water is Causing Severe Issues. We have been brought up to believe this bullshit and honestly i'm very pissed off.

Flouride's only benefit(and small benefit at that) is with TOPICAL USE only. I see many doctors and health practitioners that are supportive of water flouridation. reminds me no matter what level of education you have, people are still pretty fing dumb.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-mercola/fluoride_b_2479833.html



I am going to make it one of my missions in life to educate as many people i can about Flouride. It is a POISON people. Used by Hitler to make his people domicile. Not making this up. It's a fact.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

I don't want to be seen as supporting water fluoridation, because I don't--but I would argue that there really isn't much of any evidence out there that fluoridation is exceptionally bad.

Also its important to note that fluoride is an element and is a component of many beneficial molecules, so fluoride--strictly speaking--isn't the problem.

Fluoridation of water might be a problem, but that's different than just saying avoid all fluoride.

Polonium, for instance, is an element that you should avoid--no matter what it is in.

Fluoride provides benefit, and that is known. It also very fuckin well could be ultra detrimental to people in the long run--which is why I don't support it. However the truth is that we just don't know.

By all means caution everyone as you have, and I would even follow that advice myself (I can and do avoid fluoridated water).

I think you crossed the line by saying with such conviction that it's very bad, though. The jury is out on that still.

My contention is that it's very bad because we don't know (and I feel the same about most medications), but that isn't the same as it's very bad because its poisonous to you and causes all kinds of ailments.

Squiggs bro, I can't tell ya how much it feels like i know you and have been where you are and eventually i think you'll see more clearly. You are one whom is blessed with an intelligent mind but a mind who has payed a cost for that intelligence; the cost payed is blind arrogance; some things in life must be seen with the soul and can't or won't ever be seen with the eyes of the one i call squiggs(and you call whatever your humans real name is). This is what happens when a mind goes from being intelligent to analytical. Alls i can say bro is puff on some fine bubble and don't forget to give yourself time to be bored, when we forget what boredum feels like we leave ourselves open to becoming the product of other people's and other things than our original self. Just remeber not everything is always going to make sense to somone whom has lost their senses;). i'm just saying this because I use to be just like you and later on eventually found myself again and realized how much I thought i had gained but actaully had lost.

Just remeber to give yourself some time just for yourself. i mean like straight up a month of nothingness, a month of what the squiggs as a child would do if he was just told he had a free month of no worries.

Take it easy

 

[Ohiofarmer]

And one of my very close friends is a county water analyst and when you see the RAW DATA that is the pollution that is being put into the water and the concentrations of what is being put in the water........it's unforgivable...it makes you think twice..... Take it easy guys

 

[dirk d]

And one of my very close friends is a county water analyst and when you see the RAW DATA that is the pollution that is being put into the water and the concentrations of what is being put in the water........it's unforgivable...it makes you think twice..... Take it easy guys

Why it's not criminal I do not know??

 

[squiggly]

When it comes to Flouridation Squiggly it is VERY BAD! There has been many scientific studies done that prove that Flouridation of our Water is Causing Severe Issues. We have been brought up to believe this bullshit and honestly i'm very pissed off.

I can get on board with the idea that it shouldn't be added to water--and in fact have stated I avoid fluoridated water for this reason. I am aware of what fluorine is and what it can do--I would argue perhaps moreso than you are despite having made this your mission.

It is a potent little atom, it can do a lot of crazy things from the perspective of looking at it among other elements--especially to biology and in biological systems.

What I'm saying isn't that fluoride is good or that we shouldn't expect there to be conclusive data about something we're going to dose our entire supply of fresh drinking water with.

We should TOTALLY expect that, and we haven't gotten it.

As you know, we are in my wheelhouse here.

I'm here to tell you as someone "in the know" that many scientists who have done the experiments disagree about the results other scientists have gotten.

In the scientific community these are known as disputed results. Forgetting the fact that science has never before been claimed as "proof" for something, especially not by a scientist--there haven't been any studies regarding fluoridation of water that haven't come under some fire.


Now. Take a step back for a second before you get pissed at me, because I know you will disagree with what I've said in a knee-jerk fashion.

Understand first that my opinion is that we should not fluoridate water until WE DO HAVE an agreement in the scientific community. That seems like a given to me. So ultimately I'm on your side. I think it's unsafe and irresponsible to do this while the jury is out.

Also, because I support that happening I don't really give a shit in the end if you say fluoride makes you turn into a monkey. If it gets them to stop it, cool.

I'm just saying from a realistic perspective the data about fluoridation is far from conclusive--and also from another standpoint that fluoride ITSELF is an ELEMENT (an ion of an element to be precise) and is not "bad for humans" necessarily.

Fluoridating our water with it may turn out being bad as you claim, but the thing is just an element at the end of the day. It depends where it is and what it's hooked up to on whether or not it is harmful.

Just remeber to give yourself some time just for yourself. i mean like straight up a month of nothingness, a month of what the squiggs as a child would do if he was just told he had a free month of no worries.

Take it easy

I appreciate all of the sentiment, I really do--but I feel like maybe people have this visualization of me as some very uptight/worked up guy.

The reality is that I'm extremely laid back and that I am doing exactly what childhood squiggly saw himself doing. I have a fucking great life:

1. Friends whom I love and get to spend lots of time with.
2. A visible road to financial stability.
3. Recognition as a contributor to my community.
4. A job I love (though it is a student job).
5. A professional mentor who teaches me, every day, more than I learned in the first 10 years of school.
6. A woman who might be number 6 on this list, but is number 1 in my life.

I am in the thick of my life right now and I wouldn't take a break if you paid me. Like I said I appreciate your comments, I thought they were very nice--but while it might seem like what I do is tedious to you, I assure you that for me it is leisure.

Everything that I do which is not school or work is leisure and represents exactly what I want to be doing at that moment. That's how I live my life. It might sound exacting or boring, but what it really means is that I do what the fuck I want when I want to.
I wish people on here could like spend a day getting to know me in RL and then at the end of the day I reveal who I am and your head explodes.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

:D said in the exact way i knew it would be:D hahaha ....................im pretty sure your the re-incarnation of my former self. there's not really anything i can say or do except grin. I just hope one day down the road your out kickin it one night and it just randomly hits you.......ohiofarmer was right.:angelic: not that it's about being right or wrong but ya nah what i mean. anyways take it easy brotha Dirk and brotha Squiggs; it's good too have brothas on both sides of the coin so to speak and it's even more fun having been on one side and now on the other................If there really is sides to the coin?! :p:smug: -take it easy

 

[Ohiofarmer]

and squiggs isn't neccasarily the other side of the coin, his mind is just going to science zone, and when your in science zone only science makes sense. I miss science zone sometimes lol............but indeed science is becoming somewhat murkier now depending on what field your in...........chemistry's becoming more clear along with biology while physics and astronomy hit giant hurddles in einsteins theories, in conjunction to quantum physics/mechanics and black holes etc etc etc

 

[squiggly]

:D said in the exact way i knew it would be:D hahaha ....................im pretty sure your the re-incarnation of my former self. there's not really anything i can say or do except grin. I just hope one day down the road your out kickin it one night and it just randomly hits you.......ohiofarmer was right.:angelic: not that it's about being right or wrong but ya nah what i mean. anyways take it easy brotha Dirk and brotha Squiggs; it's good too have brothas on both sides of the coin so to speak and it's even more fun having been on one side and now on the other................If there really is sides to the coin?! :p:smug: -take it easy

No, there aren't two sides. Everything is the same, it's all connected a la Schrödinger:

​

I just want to be happy, and I am. Maybe someday when what I'm doing doesn't make me happy I'll end up doing things your way, but if it means I'm going to start randomly believing things instead of needing some evidence--I highly doubt that will ever happen.

If you think I'll just relax more down the line, I'd again disagree. I challenge any of you to be more relaxed than me. Like I said it probably sounds crazy given the material I produce here--but I am an extremely laid back person, almost too laid back.

The thing I get yelled at about most in real life is not caring about shit that everyone feels I should care about. The truth is I don't really give much of a damn. I tend to live in the now.

Right now I'm high, sitting next to my lady, and enjoying typing this up for you. Might sound crazy to you, but for me it's the picture of relaxation. If it weren't you'd never see me here.

I've got everything I need right here where I'm sitting. My trees are a room away :p I've been accused of not being much of a contributor on the MJ level here because I don't post pics of my grow.

I don't have pics of it, but I have love for it. The single most comforting thing I do in my life is care for the garden. About the only apprehensiveness I have in life comes from the illegal nature of what I'm doing, which I've decided to commit my life to changing.

I have direction and I have drive. There was a long time in my life where I lacked those things. While I might seem a lot like you--keep in mind that I was another way before this as well. I've only just recently become the person I am today, and it's about 10 kazillion times better than the person I was.

Even if there is some higher echelon of enlightenment, I don't care for the moment. I'm just happy to have made it here when I never thought I would. I'm not going to get ahead of myself or take what I've got going for granted.

 

[dirk d]

I. I am aware of what fluorine is and what it can do--I would argue perhaps moreso than you are despite having made this your mission.

It is a potent little atom, it can do a lot of crazy things from the perspective of looking at it among other elements--especially to biology and in biological systems.

.

True flourine is an element. Can we agree that flourine is not what they use when they flouridate water? and that it is in the earth in it's natural state?

 

[squiggly]

and squiggs isn't neccasarily the other side of the coin, his mind is just going to science zone, and when your in science zone only science makes sense. I miss science zone sometimes lol............but indeed science is becoming somewhat murkier now depending on what field your in...........chemistry's becoming more clear along with biology while physics and astronomy hit giant hurddles in einsteins theories, in conjunction to quantum physics/mechanics and black holes etc etc etc

Yes chemistry is becoming more clear, and to me this is really the litmus test for how science is doing overall. They don't call it the central science for no reason. Physics is very important, but in the end most of the advances in physics come from materials advances in chemistry. Similar arguments apply for just about every other discipline in the natural sciences.

So, to my mind, when chemistry is doing good the rest is soon to follow.

It is DISGUSTING to fully realize the precision required to operate some of our technology with regard to the application of theory to engineering. Look at GPS satellites and gravity-time dilation. They have to correct the clocks on the GPS satllites for this effect or they go WAAAY out of whack. We're talking about EXTREMELY LARGE measurements that we'd expect HUGE errors in only 30 years ago. We've come that far to where most of the shit we use absolutely relies on our mastery of science--yet somehow people are still wary of science.

It boggles my mind personally. Like some of the equations and processes you need to do to predict chemical reactivity are out of this world complicated and we can get stuff right predictably every time.

It would be different if we started at the reaction and then explained it (and sometimes we do this). But using some of the theories out there we can actually use the theory and predict a reaction, then go do it and watch as the results fall 100% perfectly in line with the prediction.

That's powerful stuff when you have a grasp of what a chemical reaction really is. We're basically saying here's this system consisting of trillions of components and we can use math and physics to guess exactly what will happen in it if we do X or Y.

That's INSANE specificity for something people are "wary" of.

People can be wary all they want, but the fact is science has provided for us almost everything that holds worth in the world today--including many of our very lives. The things which held worth before the advent of science wouldn't be worth a penny today for anything but posterity's sake.

Science is fallible, but it's not stupid--and that's why I like it. You can know when you've got an answer and when you don't have one. Very seldom are there in-betweens.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

No, there aren't two sides. Everything is the same, it's all connected a la Schrödinger:

​

I just want to be happy, and I am. Maybe someday when what I'm doing doesn't make me happy I'll end up doing things your way, but if it means I'm going to start randomly believing things instead of needing some evidence--I highly doubt that will ever happen.

If you think I'll just relax more down the line, I'd again disagree. I challenge any of you to be more relaxed than me. Like I said it probably sounds crazy given the material I produce here--but I am an extremely laid back person, almost too laid back.

The thing I get yelled at about most in real life is not caring about shit that everyone feels I should care about. The truth is I don't really give much of a damn. I tend to live in the now.

Right now I'm high, sitting next to my lady, and enjoying typing this up for you. Might sound crazy to you, but for me it's the picture of relaxation. If it weren't you'd never see me here.

I've got everything I need right here where I'm sitting. My trees are a room away :p I've been accused of not being much of a contributor on the MJ level here because I don't post pics of my grow.

I don't have pics of it, but I have love for it. The single most comforting thing I do in my life is care for the garden. About the only apprehensiveness I have in life comes from the illegal nature of what I'm doing, which I've decided to commit my life to changing.

^hahaha classic with the formula!!!! yah you hit it right on the head with the once what your doing no longer makes you happy, thats exactly what happened to me, then i moved to every other field of science until i realized none of them where gonna make me happy lol....but it makes me happy to clearly see my top secret not so secret anymore cloning project has taken root......shit you don't even no your a clone yet! aahhhh don't worry my genetics are prestine young ohiofarmer squiggly son LOL hahaha.



I've got everything I need right here where I'm sitting. My trees are a room away :p I've been accused of not being much of a contributor on the MJ level here because I don't post pics of my grow.

I don't have pics of it, but I have love for it. The single most comforting thing I do in my life is care for the garden. About the only apprehensiveness I have in life comes from the illegal nature of what I'm doing, which I've decided to commit my life to changing.

^^ ya right on with all of that too......pics of a plant will never replace the love for it..

anyways take it easy brotha tell your girl OF says what's up. and that OF heard theres a dirty soxhlet apparatus that needs cleanin next to the computer hahaha.............now you'll know the meaning of relaxation;) har har har

Take it easy

 

[squiggly]

True flourine is an element. Can we agree that flourine is not what they use when they flouridate water? and that it is in the earth in it's natural state?

I'd much rather drink fluoride as fluorine causes organic matter to burst into flame upon contact :)

What I'm saying is that there are totally innocuous fluoride containing chemicals out there.

Fluoride itself in water is not ideal, we both agree there.

You think there's proof of that. I think science never offers proof ever, and that the evidence that does exist has been called into question.

I think it shouldn't be done because we haven't the foggiest and it's stupid to dose everyone with something when we don't know what it does from start to finish.

 

[Ohiofarmer]

i'm not wary of science at all. i too love science in all it's glorius fields which have together in cohesion brought us to this current society, but i've also realized that true science; science without private ahgendas and political bullshit and getting funding through this and this and this by sucking this persons dick and giving them the results they want etc etc etc that true science is what is gonna live on forever the true love of exploring new equations and watching as you fail many many times before finally seeing your hypothesis become fact(after many trial run and alternative testing solutions and/or variables ofcourse)...but i feel as though true science is just the bitch of politics until we as humans can fix it...also i don't like how money is dictating science instead of scientists dictating science, i feels thats why theres not as many brilliant or outside of the box scientists anymore, theres still some obviously:) but their getting fewer and far between. Take it easy, this farmer needs some medication for the brain:D

 

[Ohiofarmer]

goodnight dirk and squiggs lets do this tomm. night:D

 

[Cort]

I can understand not being able to prove fluoride in water is bad...but can you prove it is doing good? If not, why is it being added?

 

[squiggly]

I can understand not being able to prove fluoride in water is bad...but can you prove it is doing good? If not, why is it being added?

It prevents demineralization of teeth and fights dental caries. There is no dispute there in the scientific community whatsoever.

As dirk correctly points out this is indicated for topical use only--meaning you need only use a fluoride mouthwash or something like that, not actually ingest it and pass it through your GI tract and such.

I fully agree with dirk there.

You can get all the benefits of fluoridate water (actually much better effects) from a product like ProNamel toothpaste today.

The fluoridation is outdated, but it did good things for our country on the large scale in short order when it was first implemented.

I want to be clear, people should 100% be pissed and worried about this. Don't take what I'm saying to mean calm down it's not a big deal. It's a HUGE DEAL. There couldn't be a bigger one in fact. We're talking about our ENTIRE water supply here.

There isn't room for error with shit like that. These days I think economic conditions are such that most people can provide for their own TOPICAL USE ONLY fluoride treatment--with a toothpaste or similar.

People shouldn't freak out about having fluoride in their mouth. There is every indication that it does nothing harmful and is quite beneficial. In terms of swallowing it we just don't know--but it certainly has more potential to be dangerous that way. Sense can tell us that much, we don't need science.

I suppose I'm just saying let's be serious about this. Fluoride isn't a boogeyman. It's a thing. We can have answers on this if we want to, and we should ask for those. I just don't want people to jump the gun, and there is a very good reason why:

When you jump the gun and claim this or that is true and you can't really back it up well enough--you end up discredited and you yourself become the ammo that assholes use to perpetuate the bullshit. They say, "look, only quacks think that." and then we're all discredited right along with you.

Hippy scientists across this country make "counter-culture" movements the laughing stock of the country when really their ideas are very good--and they're just not being careful how they convey them.

I've seen people's ecstasy synthesis recipe's that made me literally shake in fear that people might some day try to follow his directions. He mis-explained the reasons for every step, used the wrong words, on and on--but damnit in the end that kid made some motherfucking ecstasy.

That kid is a smart guy and could literally walk in and do my job if he'd just open his ears and eyes for a few weeks and pay attention to a mentor telling him how shit really is. The problem is that these guys often just don't want to put the time in.
So here you have an intelligent "counter culture" guy who's no worse for wear than the next chemist--and he gets demonized by the entire world because he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about even though he know exactly what he is doing.

Cops will use his recipe (which is dangerous as fuck) as proof that this is dangerous stuff and his dpt needs lots of our money to put 20 year olds in jail.

It's backwards.

We need our smart people to be smart, and our dumb people to be dumb. We can't afford to have the smart people failing to reach their potential through what can mostly be whittled down to laziness.

All of this shit is written in books and on the internet. It's all out there. If you think whatever you got wrong is hard, talk to the guy in africa who built a wind turbine generator to generate electricity for his village exclusively out of items found at a garbage dump--WITHOUT the internet and WITHOUT help. He went to the old fashioned library and sat down with physics book after physics book.

People don't ask anything of themselves anymore with regard to their brains. It's very sad and I certainly won't feed into it.

What worries me most about stuff like this is when I can see the little points where someone failed to think critically--failed to ask that last question. Those are the little moments where we are losing our battles in this country: social, economic, and political.
We are just floating through life and we can't afford that. This isn't about whether or not fluoride is bad honestly.

Doing it this way is probably bad. I can acquiesce to that as a man of science. I don't think it's smart to do it the way we do.

That doesn't matter though. That isn't the same as saying something has been proven or absolutely is the case, or that studies have confirmed it or what have you. That's an incomplete and oversimplified view of the true landscape of science and its nothing but harmful even if the conclusions of the statement happen to be correct (which I think is the case here).

I don't think it needs to be a big deal. I'm literally at your back with this fight dirk--but you need to be clear about what the truth is. The truth is we don't and really at this point know and we can't. Isn't that a good enough reason to be like, "why the fuck are you putting this shit in my drinking water, government?"

Also, aspartame in milk?

That is a huge what the fuck no-no. Far worse than fluoridation of water in my opinion.

I will choke-slam the shit out of someone if they put aspartame in my milk.

 

[Cort]

Not to poke fun but fluoride having good results as a topical is (I assume) the general consensus.

I was referring to ingesting it. Thanks for the answer tho.

Aspartame is poison too. I miss the days of whole RAW milk from healthy, happy and well fed cows. That shit needed no sweeteners and we didnt need to be tricked into drinking it.

 

[dirk d]

you know what's funny cort?? lol I pretty much switched to an organic as possible diet. I was eating some russet potato's the other day and i was like "why is this potato so sweet??" fing taste of food has gone to shit since "modern agriculture" changed everything lol.

Squiggly i want to ask you a question. What is sodium silicoflouride? and hydroflourosilicic acid? and what is it used for?

 

[squiggly]

Squiggly i want to ask you a question. What is sodium silicoflouride? and hydroflourosilicic acid? and what is it used for?

Without trying to be a dickhead--it's for fluoridation. That's the real chemist's answer.

That doesn't just mean fluoridation of water, though. This can apply to chemical reactions rather than just dissolution.

For instance recently Gatorade stopped using Brominated Vegetable Oil as an emulsifier you might've heard. This vegetable oil would've been treated through a process of bromination.

Bromin, fluorine, chlorine, iodine and astatine (the halogens) all participate in chemistry like this. Much of what they are used for synthetically speaking has a great deal to do with their electronic properties. They are all fairly electronegative. They aid in pharmaceutical and materials chemistry.