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Whats up with the sheeple?

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Whats up with the sheeple?

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Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling

Monday, 29 December 2008

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The world isn't just watching the Israeli government commit a crime in Gaza; we are watching it self-harm. This morning, and tomorrow morning, and every morning until this punishment beating ends, the young people of the Gaza Strip are going to be more filled with hate, and more determined to fight back, with stones or suicide vests or rockets. Israeli leaders have convinced themselves that the harder you beat the Palestinians, the softer they will become. But when this is over, the rage against Israelis will have hardened, and the same old compromises will still be waiting by the roadside of history, untended and unmade.

To understand how frightening it is to be a Gazan this morning, you need to have stood in that small slab of concrete by the Mediterranean and smelled the claustrophobia. The Gaza Strip is smaller than the Isle of Wight but it is crammed with 1.5 million people who can never leave. They live out their lives on top of each other, jobless and hungry, in vast, sagging tower blocks. From the top floor, you can often see the borders of their world: the Mediterranean, and Israeli barbed wire. When bombs begin to fall – as they are doing now with more deadly force than at any time since 1967 – there is nowhere to hide.

There will now be a war over the story of this war. The Israeli government says, "We withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and in return we got Hamas and Qassam rockets being rained on our cities. Sixteen civilians have been murdered. How many more are we supposed to sacrifice?" It is a plausible narrative, and there are shards of truth in it, but it is also filled with holes. If we want to understand the reality and really stop the rockets, we need to rewind a few years and view the run-up to this war dispassionately.

The Israeli government did indeed withdraw from the Gaza Strip in 2005 – in order to be able to intensify control of the West Bank. Ariel Sharon's senior adviser, Dov Weisglass, was unequivocal about this, explaining: "The disengagement [from Gaza] is actually formaldehyde. It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so that there will not be a political process with the Palestinians... this whole package that is called the Palestinian state has been removed from our agenda indefinitely."

Ordinary Palestinians were horrified by this, and by the fetid corruption of their own Fatah leaders, so they voted for Hamas. It certainly wouldn't have been my choice – an Islamist party is antithetical to all my convictions - but we have to be honest. It was a free and democratic election, and it was not a rejection of a two-state solution. The most detailed polling of Palestinians, by the University of Maryland, found that 72 per cent want a two-state solution on the 1967 borders, while fewer than 20 per cent want to reclaim the whole of historic Palestine. So, partly in response to this pressure, Hamas offered Israel a long, long ceasefire and a de facto acceptance of two states, if only Israel would return to its legal borders.

Rather than seize this opportunity and test Hamas's sincerity, the Israeli government reacted by punishing the entire civilian population. It announced that it was blockading the Gaza Strip in order to "pressure" its people to reverse the democratic process. The Israelis surrounded the Strip and refused to let anyone or anything out. They let in a small trickle of food, fuel and medicine – but not enough for survival. Weisglass quipped that the Gazans were being "put on a diet". According to Oxfam, only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza last month to feed 1.5 million people. The United Nations says poverty has reached an "unprecedented level." When I was last in besieged Gaza, I saw hospitals turning away the sick because their machinery and medicine was running out. I met hungry children stumbling around the streets, scavenging for food.

It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.

The American and European governments are responding with a lop-sidedness that ignores these realities. They say that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate while under rocket fire, but they demand that the Palestinians do so under siege in Gaza and violent military occupation in the West Bank.

Before it falls down the memory hole, we should remember that last week, Hamas offered a ceasefire in return for basic and achievable compromises. Don't take my word for it. According to the Israeli press, Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.

The core of the situation has been starkly laid out by Ephraim Halevy, the former head of Mossad. He says that while Hamas militants – like much of the Israeli right-wing – dream of driving their opponents away, "they have recognised this ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future." Instead, "they are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967." They are aware that this means they "will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original goals" – and towards a long-term peace based on compromise.

The rejectionists on both sides – from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran to Bibi Netanyahu of Israel – would then be marginalised. It is the only path that could yet end in peace but it is the Israeli government that refuses to choose it. Halevy explains: "Israel, for reasons of its own, did not want to turn the ceasefire into the start of a diplomatic process with Hamas."

Why would Israel act this way? The Israeli government wants peace, but only one imposed on its own terms, based on the acceptance of defeat by the Palestinians. It means the Israelis can keep the slabs of the West Bank on "their" side of the wall. It means they keep the largest settlements and control the water supply. And it means a divided Palestine, with responsibility for Gaza hived off to Egypt, and the broken-up West Bank standing alone. Negotiations threaten this vision: they would require Israel to give up more than it wants to. But an imposed peace will be no peace at all: it will not stop the rockets or the rage. For real safety, Israel will have to talk to the people it is blockading and bombing today, and compromise with them.

The sound of Gaza burning should be drowned out by the words of the Israeli writer Larry Derfner. He says: "Israel's war with Gaza has to be the most one-sided on earth... If the point is to end it, or at least begin to end it, the ball is not in Hamas's court – it is in ours."

Taken from:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...is-not-the-one-israel-is-telling-1214981.html
 
All politics aside, putting weapons stores in schools and mosques is outrageous. That's where I'm at in this whole thing.... by storing weapons amongst human shield innocents and then provoking attack, Hamas appear to be causing significantly more innocent casualties. It's one thing to fight for a cause you believe in, it's another altogether to put women, children and elderly directly and unwittingly in the line of fire. That's what everyone should be freaking out at imho....
 
ANOTHER ONE OF THE SHEEPLE,,,,A COUNRTY THAT HAS NO INFASTRUCTURE HAS NO PROPER WEPONS HOLDING DO THEY??? LISTEN ILL GIUVE U AN ANDRESS ROUND THE CORNER FROM ME THEY GOT GUNS ,WEPONS U NAME IT,,,WHY DONT U GO BOMB IT AND ITS IN THE MIDDLE OF KIDS AND WOMEN????? U GONNA? NO U NOT , AND TRUST ME THEY KILLIN MORE PEOPLE THAN ANY PALY COULD,,,SO FIX UP WITH THE CRAP TALK,,,, HAMAS HAVE WEPONS STORAGE IN THE MIDDLE OF WOMEN AND KIDS HAHAHAAH ITS THERE FUCKIN COUNRTY FOOL THEY CAN PUT WHAT THEY LIKE WHERE THEY LIKE WHO THE FUCK ARE U AND ISRAEL TO TELL THEM OTHERWISE AND NO ONE BOMBS THE SHIT OUT OF ISRAEL EVAN THOUGH THEY BRAKE EVERY RULE IN THE BOOK AND THEY HAVE A STOCKPILE OF NUKES LIKE NO ONE HAS And they will use them if they feel they need to witch as we know could be anytime with israel LETS REMEBER THEY ARE NOT EVAN SUPPOSED TO HAVE 1 NUKE BUT THE RULE BREAKERS THEY ARE THEY GOT BUNDLES, STOCK PILES OF WEPONS LOL STOP WATCHING THE NEWS AND GET OUT THERE AND FIND OUT THE TRUTH MAN,,, CAUSE YOU WILL NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH WATCHIN FOX NEWS THATS FOR SURE, OH BUT WAIT I FORGET THAT THE GOVERMENTS OF THE WORLD CAN GET AWAY WITH WHAT THEY WANT BECAUSE OF BIN LADEN AND THE TERROIST HAHAHAHHA IM MORE SCARED OF THE CRACK HEADS ROLLIN ROUND WITH GUNS ON MY STREETS THEN SOME DUDES IN CAVES .
 
U know what fast forward ,,im sorry for being rude ,im getting to caught up in this and u deserve your opinion ,, sorry for callin u a sheeple and for sayin u talk crap , i just read over what i said and that was wrong of me.
 
Im not tryin to start any BS here and Im not gonna get caught up in the polotics of this whole argument... I understand both sides have points, and the fact that Israel has continuasly taken back with armed force, land that they agreed to leave alone Is a pretty reprehensible act, but I dont think that there is any need to be almost blatantly anti semetic... and yes, Im referring to many of UpInSmoke's comments.

UpInSmoke said:
and u talk big like u aint a jew or an israely and u stayed there for a while,,,

This is just one of the statements I am talking about... Talking Big like he isnt a jew? Im afraid there is no need to make a statement such as that. Also you seemto think the terms "Jew" and "Isralie" are somehow always connected. Not all Jews are Israelis my friend...and there certaintly isnt anything wrong ith being a Jew as you have seemed to imply with several of your statements.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but there is no need to bring your own hatred of a relgion into your views.... The Farm isnt exactly the place for that. Thankfully people like Edelephant have been able to express their distaste for Israel's actions without also trying to demean their religion and culture.

And on that note, im stepping out, as I dont see this thread taking a good turn.
 
Well u know i didnt realise i was soudin like that,,,and im sorry if i have but to be onest i have no hatred towards jews im sitting here next to one as i type but nearly everyone i have had arguments with on this matter have been jews with no relation to israel at all just that it was there promise land in the tora,,, and show me where else i am hating on the jewish religon ,,,if it means i dont like israel then i cant like jews if thats what your saying then welll im fucked then ,, cause i read through my shit an im just hatin on israel not jewdism,,, he said he was there for a while and hes not a jew nor an israely so i said well u talkin big like u not realated to no side well lets go stay on the other side for a week then ,,,u just read it the way most people do when someone is hatin israel they r hatin jewdism ,,well your wrong freind ,,,im not allied with any one but i know whats right and wrong mate ,,, and the new age hollacust is wayyyy wrong fa me mate!!!!!
 
U know what fast forward ,,im sorry for being rude ,im getting to caught up in this and u deserve your opinion ,, sorry for callin u a sheeple and for sayin u talk crap , i just read over what i said and that was wrong of me.

Chill bro. We all share a love of ganja, let's keep things at that. Politics and religion have always been taboo pub topics for a good reason - it's emotive and shit happens.

FWIW I fell asleep watching Al Jazeera last night at 5am. I first turned on the BBC, which is a fucking joke. Then I turned to Fox, which is a fucking joke at the other end of the scale. CNN was showing something totally irrelevant and so I turned on Al Jazeera....which was for me the most unbiased reporting I've watched so far....which was also surprising. Open minds are the way this thing is going to be worked out...and time....
 
Im not tryin to start any BS here and Im not gonna get caught up in the polotics of this whole argument... I understand both sides have points, and the fact that Israel has continuasly taken back with armed force, land that they agreed to leave alone Is a pretty reprehensible act, but I dont think that there is any need to be almost blatantly anti semetic... and yes, Im referring to many of UpInSmoke's comments

yo concept,you should get a betta handle on the subject before you dump on someone,the soundbite you/they utter to rouse false support is that ANTI SEMITE comment:evilgrin0021: to taint one sides view as prejudiced,the simple truth is the Palestinians ARE the SEMITIC peoples of that land,NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND::fixed:so why call his remarks anti semitic?:bong-hits::anim_09:
 
Chill out guys or im :lock: this thread
 
:party0022: :very_first_smiley:
 
yo concept,you should get a betta handle on the subject before you dump on someone,the soundbite you/they utter to rouse false support is that ANTI SEMITE comment:evilgrin0021: to taint one sides view as prejudiced,the simple truth is the Palestinians ARE the SEMITIC peoples of that land,NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND::fixed:so why call his remarks anti semitic?:bong-hits::anim_09:

How did I dump on anyone? By commenting that his remarks seemed a little hateful? :wondering Perhaps I read into his statements incorrectly...

And As far as I know, the term Semite means any group of people originally from parts of Southwest Asia like phoenecians, akkadians and the like, and the last time I checked Hebrews AND Arabs fall into this category... Semetic does not purely mean "The original inhabitants of an area" as you seem to think...

That being said you are correct, the Palestininas are the original inhabitants of the land known as israel, Im not defending Israel, I am merely saying that many of UpInSmoke's comments seemed a little out of line to me and seemed to be Anti-Jewish, not just anti-Israel... I dont think the Farm is the place to bash anyones religion, so forgive me for voicing my opinion on that. I was not attempting to insert my own personal politics... I am not jewish nor israeli so I take no personal offence in UpInSmoke's comments, just thought they were a tad unnecessary here at a Canna website all about growing Herb and sharing our knowledge of the plant.

I dont quite follow your "rouse false support" comment, as I am not supporting or trying to denounce anyones political ideals or religious affiliations. I understand everyone will have differing views on this situation, but his statements seemed to be a bit anti-jewish rather than just anti-israeli and I thought I would say something about it.

Is there something that really bothers you about that IBL?
 
This is becoming the worst day for fighting in the Farm history . Just remember we all love each other in a non gay way LOL
 
This is becoming the worst day for fighting in the Farm history . Just remember we all love each other in a non gay way LOL

Im with ya on that one Zoo... Thats why I posted something in this thread to begin with.

But did I miss something? Was there somebig shake-up on the Farm today?:(
 
Im closing this thread stop fighting, go smoke :smoke
 
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