Where do you get accurate genetics?

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Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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I'm still working to crack the code on the puzzle of cannabis.

Curious where you get your genetics from? Is there an underground seed or clone swap for high end growers that I am unaware of? I have about zero trust in buying seeds from a commercial market any more. I quite often end up with an autoflower seed in with my fem photos so I cannot really trust anything they send out. Doing my TLC testing, there is little difference between the strains I do get, which leads me to believe they are all inbred and claims of origin are dubious, or they maybe sorta get stuff mostly right but "a few orders might have gone out wrong" and sux to be me.

Even when I have sought out original breeders, I have gotten mixed, ultimately disappointing results. A lot could be in the fact that the strain has several phenotypes or is not yet genetically stable in seed form and I am just really unlucky. But man, I have bought some serious seeds. And I do know how to grow.

I tried everything with these TLC tests to coax out subtle differences and I did get them. However, the supposed high CBD ones even showed a high THC and low CBD, and the effects matched the testing. I'm running Jack the Ripper right now, supposedly the highest THCV cultivar available. Testing is on the right of the pic, no noticeable blip in THCV over all the other strains. Super frustrating when you are trying to coax medicine out of these plants and you can't get the cannabinoids you are targeting.

Lets say you were me. Money is not the object. You either want to acquire some original land race genetics and make your own, or find a place where you really get what you ordered. I suppose the latter requires a trustworthy source for clones. Where do you go?

Don't get me wrong, there are clearly differences in the many varieties we have grown. Without a doubt. But if I want a truly high THCV strain, who do I talk to? Spraying money and coins into the internet only to find out months later that the thing you were sold wasn't what was promised is probably the worst part of this hobby for me.

Thanks in advance,
Red

TLC moered
 
growsince79

growsince79

6,887
313
I'm still working to crack the code on the puzzle of cannabis.

Curious where you get your genetics from? Is there an underground seed or clone swap for high end growers that I am unaware of? I have about zero trust in buying seeds from a commercial market any more. I quite often end up with an autoflower seed in with my fem photos so I cannot really trust anything they send out. Doing my TLC testing, there is little difference between the strains I do get, which leads me to believe they are all inbred and claims of origin are dubious, or they maybe sorta get stuff mostly right but "a few orders might have gone out wrong" and sux to be me.

Even when I have sought out original breeders, I have gotten mixed, ultimately disappointing results. A lot could be in the fact that the strain has several phenotypes or is not yet genetically stable in seed form and I am just really unlucky. But man, I have bought some serious seeds. And I do know how to grow.

I tried everything with these TLC tests to coax out subtle differences and I did get them. However, the supposed high CBD ones even showed a high THC and low CBD, and the effects matched the testing. I'm running Jack the Ripper right now, supposedly the highest THCV cultivar available. Testing is on the right of the pic, no noticeable blip in THCV over all the other strains. Super frustrating when you are trying to coax medicine out of these plants and you can't get the cannabinoids you are targeting.

Lets say you were me. Money is not the object. You either want to acquire some original land race genetics and make your own, or find a place where you really get what you ordered. I suppose the latter requires a trustworthy source for clones. Where do you go?

Don't get me wrong, there are clearly differences in the many varieties we have grown. Without a doubt. But if I want a truly high THCV strain, who do I talk to? Spraying money and coins into the internet only to find out months later that the thing you were sold wasn't what was promised is probably the worst part of this hobby for me.

Thanks in advance,
Red

View attachment 1075007
Go to Colombia. Weed is everywhere. After the zombie apocalypse is over, I plan on going to Colombia and Thailand.
 
elduderito

elduderito

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Could you list what strains and breeders you worked with to get your mixed results?

Certain hybrids will often require pheno hunting whereas other IBLs will be more stable and will grow uniform...
 
lvstealth

lvstealth

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i was thinking about this problem...

there is a texas sweet onion that is a plain ole nothing special sweet onion. when you plant it in an area in Georgia it becomes a vidalia onion, with none of the eye stinging stuff. i say that to say, what if it is like that, the thcv comes out with some soil quirk. but i know nothing, just thinking
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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i was thinking about this problem...

there is a texas sweet onion that is a plain ole nothing special sweet onion. when you plant it in an area in Georgia it becomes a vidalia onion, with none of the eye stinging stuff. i say that to say, what if it is like that, the thcv comes out with some soil quirk. but i know nothing, just thinking
I hear you. I was talking about onions with my wife just yesterday.

I think I have complicated my quest by running hydro. In another thread talking to a couple soil experts, I walked away thinking I am missing out on the entourage effect of soil microbiome, if there is such a thing. I've been working hard since then on doing the best I can to replicate without rebuilding my whole system. I've added in the bene lifeforms, enzymes, and various mycorrhizal fungi products in varying amounts, now starting from veg, and I have upped things like sulfur and other micros. Try something, test, try something else.

I'm seeing some improvement. I'm about to post the results of UVB testing as I harvest this weekend. There will be lots of data there. Including THCv.

Anyhow, none of this is really about genetics, it is about the expression of those genetic potentials. I could have the perfect environment in every way, but if the genes don't exist to start with, my efforts are in vain.

So what I have done is buy seeds from new sources. For example, I'm running THC Victory right now. I also have a Durban Poison in flower that shows some promise.

I'm still looking for that perfect plant or group of plants. But I guess everyone is too, so I'm nothing special.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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I breed em.
I know the strains were legit, they all come from elite clones.
I needed to know what I was going to get in the rare case I needed to start from seed
I have just started down this path too. My first fem seed test using SPS is running in my LED flower tent right now.

I got a bunch of landrace stuff, and I converted my mom tent into a dad tent.

It just takes sooo long for this process to play out, so I am always looking for a short cut. A new source for known X genetics sure would go a long way from minimizing the pheno hunt.

I guess my biggest problem is that in my world THC is a minor cannabinoid, I want all the others to become prominent. I'm so far outside the norm with that - everybody seems to breed for the THC spike for commercial reasons, my job is just that much harder.

I've painted myself into a corner and I'm just gonna have to make my own even if it takes years. That's cool, just need to chill and it will happen eventually or I'll learn a lot in the process.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Could you list what strains and breeders you worked with to get your mixed results?

Certain hybrids will often require pheno hunting whereas other IBLs will be more stable and will grow uniform...
Well, there have been a lot. This is an old list of some of the ones I used early on:

IMG 2662


Since then I have gotten less mainstream trying to bring the funk, but buying seeds, it's pretty much a pheno hunt guaranteed.
 
Moe.Red

Moe.Red

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Along the environmental lines, my systems are dead on. I can decide a setpoint and the system stays there regardless of what the rest of the planet is up to. Somebody told me I was growing in the space ship Enterprise.

I have recently added UVA, Far Red, and UVA/UVB combos to grows and I'm tracking results. If the problem is not genetics and on my end, I'll figure it out.
 
lvstealth

lvstealth

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the vidalia onion is suppose to be due to the low sulfur in the soil, but they tried to recreate the soil and found that it was the combination of environment in that area and the sulfur.

i say that to say, you have so many variables to eliminate.

from what little i have read, people have found higher (which still isnt really high) thcv in landrace grown in columbia. so someone has found and tested some, go there, find that, and eliminate that variable (shouldnt be terribly hard to find a local who spoke with whomever did it). i guess i am leaning toward spending the time/money in the field chasing instead of in the lab testing. but that is just me, the lab work is systematic and meticulous so albeit time consuming, will get a result at some point.

if you are determined that it is genetics, find a genetisist and go the route of id-ing which gene does what and why... it would take years also, but you could really make an impact on science! i think they have done some work, but not much at all compared to all other flora and fauna.
 
1diesel1

1diesel1

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Stay away from the commercial/money sources for seeds. You will only find what you seek with the home/grower/breeders with old genetics.
There’s a reason why we exist. If you go to a “commercial (dispensary)” you will find weed I wouldn’t even let my dog eat the leaves from.
The commercial growers are looking for fast growing strains that have been mulled over for years and years.
genetics that you seek are extremely rare.
You will have a very difficult time finding what you seek. It will take many years for this 1 genetic to surface.
I have been looking for many years and still have not found what I seek, we still have hope though:)
 
1diesel1

1diesel1

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I would also lean toward genetics that excel in the outdoors and in soil over those that excel indoors.
Those will be closer genetics that are of a original ancestry.
Back in the 70s, 80s and late 90s outdoor weed always blew away indoor, I can only speak of my experience from a lifetime of smoking this sweet, sweet weed.
 
Pushrod Monkey

Pushrod Monkey

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Stay away from the commercial/money sources for seeds. You will only find what you seek with the home/grower/breeders with old genetics.
There’s a reason why we exist. If you go to a “commercial (dispensary)” you will find weed I wouldn’t even let my dog eat the leaves from.
The commercial growers are looking for fast growing strains that have been mulled over for years and years.
genetics that you seek are extremely rare.
You will have a very difficult time finding what you seek. It will take many years for this 1 genetic to surface.
I have been looking for many years and still have not found what I seek, we still have hope though:)
I maintain a true IBL Durban with easily verified dates of arrival from Africa directly. It didn’t take a trip to Holland. Tell people the price and they balk and I do not care. These are being run in OK, OR, WA and here in legal rec operations.

You’re not going to find what you’re looking for in seed banks. Especially using any feminized seed. You’re going to spend money for a reason.

Two guys here have tried to trade me seeds for some of these. Seriously? Like in racing - how fast can you make my car? Answer the question with another - how much do you want to spend? I lose bud flowering space every time I run for seed. Real genetics cost. Mine cost me and I paid for a reason.
 

redshift75

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no, we have muddle genetics most breeders bread for c5 genes it's genetic and can be breed to be c3 if you find genes. Because our profit side has historically been the former not latter to sales. Is nothing that unlocks it growing more but pheno hunting and proper breeding technique to up the quality of that trait.


Half the people here won't even know what you're talking about. But you ain't getting the secret thcv genetics. Truly the good pheno hunters, They are hoarded as the next big wave by cultivators. I do have low C3 strains that show some propyl traits in genetics. I have a coffee can full of thcv marked ones I do nothing with. But you're going to have to pheno hunt and do a bunch of testing to find the ones worth isolating. It's not a matter of simply finding landrace strains. it's going to take mass testing and pheno hunting specifically to cultivate and breed/stabilize a thcv strain. Honestly, some strains if you look at consumer reports and their testing is many that can't even achieves the genetic potential of thcv marketed strains.

Look at Durban poison supposed to be great everyone still grows and harvests it and propagates the lineage for c5 genes not c3.


maybe it helps to share see some of the genetic info? https://www.researchgate.net/public...nnabinoid_ratio_completion_of_a_genetic_model

But if they were able to achieve pc3 up to 96% mean you can easily try to isolate the trait.
Because I don't think you will find a commercial strain that has been stabilized for this... YET. because profit-wise you could sell something stabilized for a million or better with THCV.



There is nothing special about Vidalia onions it's growing onions with no sulfur. We just live in a corporatized world where we can say "true Vidalia onions only come from Vidalia Georgia" and people think it's science. Not because of greed where we have a law that says only 20 counties can be officially Vidalias under the " Vidalia Onion Act of 1986" That's not science it's a marketing gimmick.




All I grow is sativas for my genetics and you will get the rare one that shows the trait at least you will think so in effect. Could be a completely pseudo effect. But honestly, I have way too much integrity to jump on this bandwagon with THCV as a personal breeder searching when its 10000% going to be used for the next cannabis marketing gimmick. Mostly I won't bother because money is an object and I don't have enough for a thcv pheno hunt. If you arent one of the people who has been nurturing this curve with strains for several years already we will have to wait for the market offering.
Because I know most breeders' purpose with THCV I'm 100% out. Cannabis has enough gimmicks. I've heard money people say from the sales side about waiting for CBD to peak and then push THCV. You are seeing more dispensaries push this.


but to your point and the medical side of those on the quest. the questions, you bring up. Yes, there is underground networks. Yes, you can ask breeders to help you cue for phenos before they discard. Like everything in bud though is no magical gathering place. It's simply making the connections of breeders pheno hunting. By our nature as breeders and growers, we live in the shadows and many people should embrace this whether legal or not for safety far greater than just the legal ramifications. But good luck finding those breeders directly or at the home grower level when most of them with the resources to be effective believe THCV going to be the new CBD on getting them to give up anything that might be a prized thcv genetic. there are people out there spending millions on this hunt. The best people tend to have layers between their work and the public. you will see their work through some brand or distributor/dispensary never seeing the magic person making it happen. Most breeders work outside the law even when they work within the law in most places. Because the laws don't come close to the numbers that you truly need to do for good breeding for genetic collection. Im not talking about the people who pump out seeds and call them genetics. But true genetic pheno hunters. That try to plant 1000 at a time or so per year.


I had this discussion with a friend and the problem to true thcv genetic collection and isolation is how much testing it takes and its a trait you can only truly mark at the finished product. You cant tell 2 weeks into flower if its going to be good/great value you're looking for like other pheno traits. Takes lots of lab equipment. Most of the bud to be wasted so it takes someone with resources to waste on the profits they can accumulate by finding that true strain. Even if you think you found a visual trait to cue it can be a false positive. So it takes people with the financial resources to commit to that level of hunting. Which can easily hit a 100k-500k cost when it's all said and done at the minimum mark having to use 3rd party labs and such before you found something you isolated you could call new(with integrity, plenty of breeders will claim it's new).

Honestly, I believe with all my soul that a true THCV strain will not ever come from a seed and will be a prized clone. Because many people I have discussed in their work and from what I've gathered from others. You can have an amazing one and it just doesn't stabilize to the offspring. without still being that random one. It's not to say it won't happen over time. But our time focused on C5 has hidden our ability to go for c3 and we have to wait for the probability of genetic rates to come into play with time to unlock them again.

In my opinion. This is a very complex issue because of that reason alone. durban poison tends to be proof of that. Honestly, most strains you see with high THCV are going to be muddle pheno isolations of something like that or some afghani strains possibly. I would start with landrace and go with pure Sativa but something that isn't popularly isolated for the c5 vs c3. this is why you see places selling thcv they say "strain has achieved up to 1% THCV" or whatever it is. Because odds are that one in the jar you want to buy a gram of didn't have any or minimal and not enough to be an agnostic without mass consumption.


THCV is very complex to discuss as a breeder on an open forum even if we discuss THCv research because of those implications right now and trends in the industry. it really opens oneself up to be identified by others in the industry if they don't want to be. The only people I imagine that would truly discuss thcv genetics right now are people not trying to do it YET! Because we are talking potentially millions in exclusivity distribution through legal channels. Most wont share this information.

But 100% the unlock is in random genetic material propagation.


I'm not saying any of this as a negative. I'm just giving my thoughts into the idea about your concept of "cracking the code" or "why isn't it readily available". Is lots more to it. So no one takes any of this as me attacking anything. I'm just discussing the concept of greed in relation to THCV and genetic hoarding. So don't take it negative.


even if you had a thcv strain the best one. You wouldn't find it in seed form without serious $$ for 2-3 years is my belief. Because of the profit side, it will generate through exclusive distribution channels. So that's why you don't see people rushing to give you their stock on this or truly "potential stock".

Edit: I'm not 100% calling it greed. if someone spends 2 million on trying to isolate thcv strain to offer it to people for their medicine and it costs 4x as much to grow that strain to offer it to others over another then they fully deserve to be compensated for their contribution to society. But many people don't seek fair rewarding compensation they seek fortunes.
 
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