taking cuts from infected plants

I'm now resigned to start my grow over and break down the space.. I started seeing some clear fungal activity from the Met52 (after ~2 weeks after inoculation), mainly on the top of the medium (coco) stemming from the grains near the surface. However, when I dig into the pots some , I don't see much of a fungal network forming from the grains of rice that have been mixed in deeper.. and I'm finding lots of crawlers in the pots. Wish I could have got the met52 in place earlier to give a better representation of its potential as a preventative / treatment.

My hope is to take cuts from the infected plants to root at a separate clean location to be monitored, and clean / bug bomb cycle the grow space. anyone else have success (or otherwise) with getting cuts from infected plants that don't propagate the RA? Should I soak the cuts in pesticide solution for any duration in case there are eggs on the cuts? I'll be including Met52 i the cloning medium as a preventative.
Also, any insight about the best type of bug bombs to use for resetting a room? These things seem pretty immune to pyrethrin based products as root drench, but this seems to be the standard agent contained in the bug bombs I see mentioned. I'm not gonna have any plants in the room, so sensitivity not a concern.
:mad0233:
thanks for thoughts

Max, 1st off I am a total rookie when It comes to RA's, but ill share this recent experience.

I took a shit ton of cuttings off some of my soil/coco plants that were on their way out before scrapping them. It seemed as though they had some type of virus though and continued to go to shit very rapidly even after being place in an aero cloner and also in rockwool.

I hit about a 1/4 of them with some aspirin water after reading about it on the farm, and it seems to have made a difference in the health of the clones..

thanks to sea and everyone else who mentioned aspirin in the first place, here is a link I bookmarked that I believe sea had put up...
http://www.plantea.com/plant-aspirin.htm
I started some new seedlings and plan on hitting them with aspirin water once a week to see if it helps prevent sickness>>>if I am unable to eradicate the RAs 100%

Onespark said:

Edit- Just read through everything and wanted to say thanks to you all again. The UAK article on grape pests is great. Kaolin clay? looking into that...

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Glad you liked it, sure was an interesting read to say the least :)
I looked and looked for the australian versarock stuff(hydroponic medium made from kaolin clay). But I couldn't find a single person that sells it here in the states. I emailed a couple hydroponic stores down in AU to see if they could mail me some, but have yet to hear back from anyone.

Maxwell are you saying that you transplanted what you thought were uncontaminated plants and infused met in the medium and you still got root aphids?

Thanks for posting the charts Chronic, I ran across those. Ohio State gives a chart too, rating imid only 1 or 2 stars as an effective pesticide, and acetamiprid a 3 star. Movento, (spirotetramat) is not on their chart perhaps it wasn't out when the chart was written, also, it's a banned pesticide because of it's detrimental impact on bees.

http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/grapeipm/Pesticide.htm

IDK if these are native or not. but I never want to run a vented room again, ever. I never want to use bagged untested soils again ever, and I never want to get a clone from an uncertain source again ever. All organics from now on will be home cooked and home made, incorporating the SFW in the cooking process. This plague changed every aspect of growing for me. Yeah these could be a sabotage from someone's lab, this whole ordeal has made me more aware and careful. I want to develop my lab so it can't be penetrated!!!

as far as infected clones, imo it's hard to say but everything should be treated as if it were infected. I have taken clones off infected plants that are good now, but were treated with spirotetramat. But, I did find tiny little white specks on the lower foliage of affected plants. These white specks are tiny and cannot be accounted for. I do not know if these could possibly be microscopic galls? My magnification will not go high enough to confirm this, it gets very pixelated. But setting it on a white speck I think I can see movement, but not sure, it needs a better scope.

As far as fliers, yes they do look like fungus gnats but I'm sure they're not. These were examined when I found them back in may/june and I haven't seen any since. I found a file with better pics. Though not shown in the pics, these have the 2 "tailpipes", 1 of the distinctions that set them apart., as well as the striped abdomen thats supersedes the width of the thorax. 1 of these fliers can drop an entire operation if it's vulnerable. I didn't do much detailed pics, I caught it, examined it, ID'd it and discarded it, not thinking much of it at the time, till I saw it's destructive offspring, scary.














I'm still working on sanitation, as far as I've read 10% bleach should do it. I pumped down a mini split and pulled it off the wall and sprayed it with bifenthrin throughout and left the cover off for easy maintenance and treatment. Also did the same with a dehui. This run will be going elsewhere with all new equipment.

Also Onespark, when you "crowned" your met into your hydro pots did you just drop the rice kernels on top of the pot or did you water them in?

Yo gorilla: Wow, Dude you are an info gathering regurgitating machine. Great work!

Not sure what that winged bug you have in those photos is. The winged RA's i have came across are more pear shaped in the abdomen, the wings while at rest point upward similar to a Mayfly at rest. Those in your photos are clearly lying flat like a hornet/wasp.

Good Luck, Grow hard

Hey BGorilla
Thanks for the input. To clarify, the plants that I treated with Met52 were already infected, and the rice grains were not introduced until transplant from 2 to 5 gallon (some more detail in previous posts). At the time of this transplant, more light were turned on, and plants went down hill quickly, seemingly very photosensitive. It took almost 2 weeks to see sign of fungal growth, and now the pots are pretty thick with crawlers, and I am about to cull them. I wanted to wait long enough to see if the fungus was having effect on population (infection of the pest can take 3-5 days from the time it make contact with the fungal spore).. however my plants look past the stage of expectation of a reasonable recovery. Good info is here :

I would in the future try to pre-inoculate a smaller amount of medium with the full allotment of met52 to be used, and then mix this concentrated amount into the final amount soil(less) / medium . I'll give updates to note any results I see moving forward, but I don't this current round was a fair assessment of the potential of the fungal activity as an effective preventative. I will suggest that, in general, high light intensities definitely exacerbates the damage caused by RA.

Here is a link to a study on compatibility of Metarhizium fungus and pesticides-- I believe the conclusion is that imidacloprid should not hinder the development of the fungus, and I get the impression that neither would pyrethrin based treatment, although this is not explicit in this study.

Also, in regards to the methods for cleaning out the space and starting with fresh stock, I have heard the stories of these things being really hard to eradicate even with a full breakdown, but I don't want to psyche myself out, or go overboard with the sanitizing. I get the impression that a few weeks breakdown period with mutiple bleaching/ bug bomb sessions should suffice if thorough. I am curious: what conditions would make it unlikely for stray RA to maintain some dormancy? I would guess that very high temperatures with no food source might make it a challenging for the RA to remain in a space for an extended time. I run tightly sealed / insulated spaces, and could potentially use a propane co2 burner on a thermostat to get temps above 100 f , and sustain this for a few days.. maybe 120? The extra co2 i would also serve as a deterrent, I imagine.
The thought of potential eggs / galls in the foliage makes me second guess the thought of using current stock of infected plants for cuttings. I could store cuttings in the fridge for a few weeks before rooting if this would be helpful. Any insights on these considerations are appreciated.
good luck y'all

Thanks for the input on that Maxwell as for a minute I seriously started to have doubts. As far as the light intensity absolutely. I've witnessed it. I could have what appears to be a very healthy plant under t-5's. These very healthy looking plants were treated with merit and and triazicide and thought to be ready for flower. Once moved into c02 and intense light even given plenty of graduation and a slow introduction to it, within 7~10 days the plants would begin to deteriorate rapidly with no reversal at that point. Seams the roots get too damaged and poisoned to recover and sustain the plant. More plants had to be destroyed! my theory is the plant can maintain a well enough root system to survive relatively undemanding conditions. But when the plant is moved to an environment that calls for all it's resources, it can't pull them as it's root system is too damaged and poisoned so it shuts down.

***Also I want to disclaim the fact that i am not any type of expert in the field of entomology, nor have I had an "expert" look at these. My theories came from my experience and microscopic observation, and are nothing more than a hypothesis. If, that is not the flier I have no clue, because I have not seen any other fliers other than the typical thin bodied "fungus gnat" flier of 2 main types, male and female. This flier was distinguished by it's absolute differences to the other "gnats" M&F found. And, I still have not found ANY fliers since this initial destructive larvae were found, and these accompanied the initial invasion. all plants were treated and NO fungus gnats have been found since nor any fliers of any kind. It could be that my treatments have knocked them down and kept them down in their lower life stages which are every bit as destructive***

I've never been so enthralled and determined to eliminate such a destructive pest.

Anyway, I'm done making observations and coming up with theories. This has been an ordeal!!! All I wanna do is rid myself of this fuckin thing!!!!

Will update when progress is made, LOTS of WORK to do!!!!!

info from down Australia



Of note: "However, there is some evidence that phylloxera crawlers (the most important dispersive stage) thrive best at temperatures between 21°C and 28°C and humidity above 50% (within that general temperature range). "

and:
"a crawler can live for up to a week without a food source in ideal temperature/humidity conditions"

This suggests to me: breaking the room down for longer than a week and providing hot, dry, bleach filled conditions, with no possible food source in the immediate vicinity of the grow. Maybe crank the dehumidifier, and run a thermostated heater as well. These things don't live above ground in the desert, I'm pretty certain..
This also suggests putting cuts from infected plants on hold in the fridge for a week before cloning them in a clean space might be a good idea, in case there are crawlers on them. I've never tried clones in stasis like this, but have read people have good results with putting cuts in the fridge, even for up to a month or more.

Bongo, other products very useful and more reliable than bleach for sanitation are:
Chlorhexidine
Quaternary ammonium
Physan 20 is such a quats product.

I know that chlorhexidine is safe to use to clean enclosures of sensitive (and valuable) reptiles.

bongorilla said:

Also Onespark, when you "crowned" your met into your hydro pots did you just drop the rice kernels on top of the pot or did you water them in?

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Sorry to be confusing. I just put the rice into the 8" net pots mixed in with hydroton and then watered it in. After a few days the rice that fell below the net pots was cleaned out with a system change. The Met in the pots colonized into the hydroton by that time. We got the Met when the cycles had been going for a few weeks so I feel like if I do it from the start I will be good to go.

Bongorilla - Thats a scary looking flier. I have not seen one of those yet. Could be RA but looks like some kind of fly almost. The abdomen looks RA but the wings, head, etc.. seem different to me. I'm looking around to see if I can find an ID for that thing.

Seamaiden - "Physan 20 is such a quats product" - What does quats mean? I think Physan 20 is pretty great. You don't like it? Confused. Help a brother out.

Yo One-

I'm preparing to get a 16 site undercurrent going, and have been considering trying some sort of permeable barrier that could keep the met in the pots, but let the roots grow through the barrier. Does anyone have any thoughts on this or ideas? Something to line the net pot with?

you should get some kaolin clay :) hahaha

Chronic Monster said:

you should get some kaolin clay :) hahaha

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Still working on t hat bro. Did you ever source those kaolin grow rocks you were talking about? That would be the shiz. how are you doing with those bugs CM? I'm already missing that stoned munchiefied cookie monster. HA HA!

Onespark said:

Seamaiden - "Physan 20 is such a quats product" - What does quats mean? I think Physan 20 is pretty great. You don't like it? Confused. Help a brother out.

Click to expand...

Quaternary ammonium compound. Quaternary ammonium compounds are practically a gold standard for sterilization and disinfection, having been used for decades in many, many arenas. I learned about it first when I became a manicurist--quats is used to sterilize implements. Then I saw it being used in an aquarium shop as a net dip (ESSENTIAL in this situation!). Then I saw it being used on equipment during my time at a large public aquarium. So that's my own direct experience with it (quats), but it's also used in the medical industry and others for exactly these same purposes.

I like Physan 20.

altimood said:

Still working on t hat bro. Did you ever source those kaolin grow rocks you were talking about? That would be the shiz. how are you doing with those bugs CM? I'm already missing that stoned munchiefied cookie monster. HA HA!

Click to expand...

I'm still trying to decide if I should just scrap this grow or finish up and hash them out:wondering The plants are looking better but they have no vigor and the roots don't look so great either, this one probably looks the best but still sad none the less.


Gota be one of my most disappointing grows :(


ended up scrapping all my soil and coco plants, I did take clones from them before though
(still deciding if I should scrap them as well .)

It seems to me the clones I treated with aspirin water are much healthier than the ones that were not treated.

Actually got an email back from Australia last night...

the only place I know that might still have it, is, ' Duralite ', in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Contact David Francis at www.duralite.com.au , he still advertises it.
Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Laurie.

uhh yeah i really need some of that. thought they were fungus gnats. ive tried nematodes. botanigard. and systemics. systemics beat the crap outta my ladies. the others dont seem to work much. i have permethrin 38% but i think it will kill em. thats what i get for using craigslist lol. seriously though.

Chronic Monster said:

I'm still trying to decide if I should just scrap this grow or finish up and hash them out:wondering The plants are looking better but they have no vigor and the roots don't look so great either, this one probably looks the best but still sad none the less.
View attachment 161067

Gota be one of my most disappointing grows :(


ended up scrapping all my soil and coco plants, I did take clones from them before though
(still deciding if I should scrap them as well .)

It seems to me the clones I treated with aspirin water are much healthier than the ones that were not treated.


Actually got an email back from Australia last night...

the only place I know that might still have it, is, ' Duralite ', in Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.
Contact David Francis at www.duralite.com.au , he still advertises it.
Hope this is of some help.
Regards,
Laurie.

Click to expand...

The plants don't look too bad right now, but I know what your saying. Tough call when you're dealing with the RA's. I'm gonna see what the aussie says about the clay. I see the green guys back! LOL

What a Joke, I can only send PM to admin? Hey Onespark, I am in serious need of some of these wonder grains. I have used just about every product out on the market @ this point, and would love to give this one a try...How can I get my hands on some Met52? If anyone can help me do this, pleeeease let me know...Thanks

I need some Met52 ASAP, I found it for sale in Canada, but is there anywhere in the States I can find it for sale?