Why organic nutrients do not work in coco

the123321 · Apr 25, 2020

I am in my first grow and I tried dr earth dry slow release fertilizer mixed into the coco coir with perlite. It was recommended by many people on the forum to not do it. I tried it anyway and I wish I had not. I have learned my lesson on that and I am now trying a more proven method with biotabs for my next grow on there.

I would like to talk through the organic nutrients and why they do not work with someone that knows more about it. My understanding is that coco does not hold onto the nutrients like soil does and you also water coco like 2-3 times more often than you do with soil then if you follow the recommended levels on the bag that is recommended for soil it is more nutrients than the plants want since you are watering more often it releases the nutrients 2-3 times more often than it would in soil right? In coco if you water to runoff like is what many websites recommend then you water away the dry amendments you mixed into the coco. Then would you be able to do dry amendments in coco if you do like 1/3 of the recommended level mixed in with the coco and instead of watering to runoff you water it and let the pot sit in the runoff long enough to wick it back into the pot? Then it is not losing those nutrients and the plant gets it back when it wicks back up into the pot on there.

Then if you do a much lower amount of the nutrients mixed in to make up for the extra watering you do on coco with the not draining to waste and letting the plant wick the water with nutrients back into the pot would that not make it work better with coco? Like do 1/3 of the recommended amount of dry slow release organic fertilizer mixed into the pot then top dress it more often to make up for that on there.

I know that organic fertilizer in coco is not recommended and I am not planning to try dr earth dry fertilizer in my next grow I am just wanting to talk it out with those of you that know more about this than I do. I have read that many people are wanting to try dry amendments in coco then it would likely be helpful to them if there is a way to make that work on there.

Dirtbag · Apr 25, 2020

Well, coco does have a cec like soil does. It actually holds on to a lot of nutrients, especially Ca.

If you were going to try a mixed in fert I think an osmocote slow release fert would be best but that's not organic so...

It's trying to reinvent the wheel imho. If you want hydro fast growth from coco you treat it like hydro. If you want an organic water only grow, you're better of with potting soil. It's really that simple. Coco doesnt do as well in organic applications and potting soil sucks as a hydroponic medium...lol Its the way the world turns lol.

fatconeskills · Apr 25, 2020

This guy does it pretty well. Treating amended coco like soil. Ph range 6.5-6.8 range. Coco can be hydro and it can be a traditional medium, up to how you treat it. But here is Gaia green dry amendments with coco. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtU2-cpxx18iQ4BvracrxDQ

cemchris · Apr 25, 2020

It will more come down to pot size because of waterings. Amended coco does fine in bigger pots since the watering curve is more like soil. Most soil mixes use coco at this point. It's when you get into the smaller pot size or very root bound plants that amending becomes a problem. The amount of water you are running through the plant will start to cause issues.

the123321 · Apr 25, 2020

cemchris said:
It will more come down to pot size because of waterings. Amended coco does fine in bigger pots since the watering curve is more like soil. Most soil mixes use coco at this point. It's when you get into the smaller pot size or very root bound plants that amending becomes a problem. The amount of water you are running through the plant will start to cause issues.

Thanks. Then do you think that with you watering coco like 3 times more often than you would soil would it work better to put like 1/3 of the recommended level of dry amendments in the coco on there?

cemchris · Apr 25, 2020

the123321 said:
Thanks. Then do you think that with you watering coco like 3 times more often than you would soil would it work better to put like 1/3 of the recommended level of dry amendments in the coco on there?

That's something I can't comment on. Even in my OD non weed plants I have in coco I feed them the runoff from my veg and flower feeds. Never amend it. The one time I tried it didnt work out so hot in smaller pots.

camoflouge312 · Mar 8, 2021

So seems how we have established that amended coco is a bit of a back step, what about meeting in the middle?
Use liquid nutes but certified organic ones such as a line built like so?
7.5 gal airpots
Iguana juice grow and bloom base
GO calmag+ organic.
Nectar for the gods poseidonzyme.
Roots organics trinity calyst carb
Nectar for the gods Kraken " stalk strength
Big bud organic oim bloom boost.
Ancient earth oim
Bennies such as like idk
Xtreme gardening MYKOS WP
Botanicare hydroguard
Use citric acid as ph down and boom
An organic coco run with liquid nutes and a healthy rhizosphere ( I think lol. And hope)
These are all essentially hydro certified nutrients as well as organic
(Although hydroguard and mykos don't specifically say it)
Have all of that in a res with a pump feeding frequent servings to the pots filled with ( my personal preferences for coco are atami b'cuzz coco
Organic mechanics coco)
Whatchas think? I'm still learning myself so my experience isn't anything grand
But I came up with it after running a concurrent synthetic coco dtw run and a build a soil handmade super soil run they both have their merritt and I truly want the best of both worlds, so gimme you thoughts maybe op can adopt something like this if it's correct?

RealizedReal000 · Mar 8, 2021

the123321 said:
Thanks. Then do you think that with you watering coco like 3 times more often than you would soil would it work better to put like 1/3 of the recommended level of dry amendments in the coco on there?

You CAN water coco that much but when using organic dry amendments you don’t have to water it constantly. I’ve been using both organic dry and bottled but never on the same plant cause I know there are strains out there who can take the organic dry and some who can’t so I use bottled. But the trick I’ve found using organic dry is that yes you can water that many times but you don’t have too. As long as there is still some moisture the nutes should still be available while still letting the pot get lighter weight wise. You don’t want run off either or you will leech all the nutes out of the medium. Give enough water to last the plants a couple of days but enough to where there is no run off. I’ve been growing for over 15 years since I was in high school. And I used bottled at first but then I heard about organic dry about 6 years ago and tried it. I was taking horticulture classes at my local hydroponic store when the owner said I should try it. He told me all the tricks and tips and I’ve been growing with em ever since. The terpene profile are almost always better then using bottled. And no flushing. Just got setting at a ph of 6.0 - 6.5. I’ve run into problems with root rot and fungus gnats and deficiencies if I water them everyday so i started to use lift the pot. Has been working wonders ever since.

Kgunge · Apr 26, 2021

RealizedReal000 said:
You CAN water coco that much but when using organic dry amendments you don’t have to water it constantly. I’ve been using both organic dry and bottled but never on the same plant cause I know there are strains out there who can take the organic dry and some who can’t so I use bottled. But the trick I’ve found using organic dry is that yes you can water that many times but you don’t have too. As long as there is still some moisture the nutes should still be available while still letting the pot get lighter weight wise. You don’t want run off either or you will leech all the nutes out of the medium. Give enough water to last the plants a couple of days but enough to where there is no run off. I’ve been growing for over 15 years since I was in high school. And I used bottled at first but then I heard about organic dry about 6 years ago and tried it. I was taking horticulture classes at my local hydroponic store when the owner said I should try it. He told me all the tricks and tips and I’ve been growing with em ever since. The terpene profile are almost always better then using bottled. And no flushing. Just got setting at a ph of 6.0 - 6.5. I’ve run into problems with root rot and fungus gnats and deficiencies if I water them everyday so i started to use lift the pot. Has been working wonders ever since.

I just stumbled on this thread while I was googling if you could amend coco coir and your comment in particular stood out because you might be solving an issue of mine.
I work for a pretty big macro grow and we're having an issue of not having enough man power to tend to our coir pots. We grow in 20 gal containers and in bloom fertigating with 3-4 gallons volume, just 6-8 hours later and they're bone dry so I went online to find ways to have coco dry out slower. I looked for this type of solution to our problem because we are only a 9-5 crew with only 3 people running multiple warehouses with limited flexibility on changing much of the setup due to higher ups.
We are using bottled Nutes (mills nutrients) in 20 gal coco / perlite mix 70/30 with worm castings. You say you don't water everyday? I was under the impression coir can't be let to dry out fully once roots are established.

camoflouge312 · Apr 28, 2021

Anyone check my comment a few replies up? In genuinely curious if that would solve the whole organic coco issue

Kgunge · Apr 28, 2021

camoflouge312 said:
So seems how we have established that amended coco is a bit of a back step, what about meeting in the middle?
Use liquid nutes but certified organic ones such as a line built like so?
7.5 gal airpots
Iguana juice grow and bloom base
GO calmag+ organic.
Nectar for the gods poseidonzyme.
Roots organics trinity calyst carb
Nectar for the gods Kraken " stalk strength
Big bud organic oim bloom boost.
Ancient earth oim
Bennies such as like idk
Xtreme gardening MYKOS WP
Botanicare hydroguard
Use citric acid as ph down and boom
An organic coco run with liquid nutes and a healthy rhizosphere ( I think lol. And hope)
These are all essentially hydro certified nutrients as well as organic
(Although hydroguard and mykos don't specifically say it)
Have all of that in a res with a pump feeding frequent servings to the pots filled with ( my personal preferences for coco are atami b'cuzz coco
Organic mechanics coco)
Whatchas think? I'm still learning myself so my experience isn't anything grand
But I came up with it after running a concurrent synthetic coco dtw run and a build a soil handmade super soil run they both have their merritt and I truly want the best of both worlds, so gimme you thoughts maybe op can adopt something like this if it's correct?

We use Mills nutrients which they’re rep I spoke to told me it’s a organic / synthetic blend at a 70/30. We’ve been using them for years and honestly no complaints at all. Our plants tend to be the healthiest and most vigours then our other grow buddies with different nutrient lines. That’s just our experience

Whiskydrunk420 · Apr 28, 2021

the123321 said:
I am in my first grow and I tried dr earth dry slow release fertilizer mixed into the coco coir with perlite. It was recommended by many people on the forum to not do it. I tried it anyway and I wish I had not. I have learned my lesson on that and I am now trying a more proven method with biotabs for my next grow on there.

I would like to talk through the organic nutrients and why they do not work with someone that knows more about it. My understanding is that coco does not hold onto the nutrients like soil does and you also water coco like 2-3 times more often than you do with soil then if you follow the recommended levels on the bag that is recommended for soil it is more nutrients than the plants want since you are watering more often it releases the nutrients 2-3 times more often than it would in soil right? In coco if you water to runoff like is what many websites recommend then you water away the dry amendments you mixed into the coco. Then would you be able to do dry amendments in coco if you do like 1/3 of the recommended level mixed in with the coco and instead of watering to runoff you water it and let the pot sit in the runoff long enough to wick it back into the pot? Then it is not losing those nutrients and the plant gets it back when it wicks back up into the pot on there.

Then if you do a much lower amount of the nutrients mixed in to make up for the extra watering you do on coco with the not draining to waste and letting the plant wick the water with nutrients back into the pot would that not make it work better with coco? Like do 1/3 of the recommended amount of dry slow release organic fertilizer mixed into the pot then top dress it more often to make up for that on there.

I know that organic fertilizer in coco is not recommended and I am not planning to try dr earth dry fertilizer in my next grow I am just wanting to talk it out with those of you that know more about this than I do. I have read that many people are wanting to try dry amendments in coco then it would likely be helpful to them if there is a way to make that work on there.

Kgunge said:
We use Mills nutrients which they’re rep I spoke to told me it’s a organic / synthetic blend at a 70/30. We’ve been using them for years and honestly no complaints at all. Our plants tend to be the healthiest and most vigours then our other grow buddies with different nutrient lines. That’s just our experience

Well I've had no problems using earth dust nutes by green sunshine company. It's a little boring growing but it's amazing shit especially for rookie growers, I did find you need to water a little more to keep from getting cal / mag def. I had no problems and pulled in just under a pound on the first run with 10 small plants.

RealizedReal000 · Apr 28, 2021

camoflouge312 said:
Anyone check my comment a few replies up? In genuinely curious if that would solve the whole organic coco issue

You can do that to. It’s a very versatile medium.

AnimalHouse · Apr 28, 2021

During cool months I use a coco based potting mix and when it warms I switch over to peat based. I use the same organic dry nutes and liquid fish & seaweed for both mixes and it does very well.
Main thing is use readily available nutrient blends and avoid anything time or slow release. Temps activate those release points and if temps climb it can release the whole plethora of nutes and burn up a plant. Too cool, they'll never release and starve a plant

KanaGirl · May 23, 2021

AnimalHouse said:
During cool months I use a coco based potting mix and when it warms I switch over to peat based. I use the same organic dry nutes and liquid fish & seaweed for both mixes and it does very well.
Main thing is use readily available nutrient blends and avoid anything time or slow release. Temps activate those release points and if temps climb it can release the whole plethora of nutes and burn up a plant. Too cool, they'll never release and starve a plant

Can you share which "readily available" nutrient blends you've had success with in coco?

I just finished my 3rd grow in coco - here's my personal experience running 4 strains from seed (GDP, OG Kush; White Widow; Afghan Kush):
1st grow - coco/perlite - dry amendments (Dr. Earth) + microbes. Veg went fine, flower had deficiencies, needed to supplement with teas to get them thru. Decent quality mail colas, good terpene profiles, lowish yield, somewhat airy secondary buds, slow growth, low stretch, did not stack well. *** must let coco dry out partially between waterings or ran into issues.
2nd grow - coco/perlite - Botanicare bottled nutes (blend of organic/synthetic products), supplemented with Botanicare Pure Blend Tea (organic) + microbes. Veg and flower went great, good growth rates, buds denser than 1st grow, good terpene profiles, good yield, medium density, good speed of growth. *** low frequency fertigation, every 1-2 days depending on water uptake, kept medium semi damp, but not wet.
3rd grow - coco/perlite - GH nutes (3 part) - fully synthetic. Veg/flower were EXPLOSIVE, they literally grew into my lights and I had to chop in half just before flip. Super dense buds, excellent yield, no deficiencies entire grow, terpene profiles SUCK, entire grow no smell at all unless you touch buds. Currently drying and curing so I'll have to get back to you on bud quality later. *** high frequency fertigation 1-3x per day, 10+% runoff.

I would LOVE to go back to fully organic dry amendments, but I do feel like there is a very delicate balancing act with treating coco like soil. You have to make sure to not let coco dry out fully, but definitely let it dry back between waterings. Dry amendments + supplemental teas/nutes + microbes = only need to water. But I feel like even letting coco dry back and not watering as frequently, it doesn't hold nutes like soil, so I find it needs supplemental nutes throughout the grow.

My holy grail would be to be able to grow HYDRO STYLE (high frequency fertigation) in coco, but with an organic product in the reservoir. However, that doesn't seem possible because organic inputs need to be broken down before being readily available to the plants, which takes time. PLUS, organic nutes don't hold in a reservoir, they start to stink up and build biofilm within a day or two.

If I could at least find an excellent quality organic nute that can be watered in like synthetic nutes and be immediately bioavailable, that might work. So, that's what I've been on the hunt for. If you've found an organic product that provides readily available nutrients to plants (like synthetics), I'm all ears

RealizedReal000 · May 23, 2021

KanaGirl said:
Can you share which "readily available" nutrient blends you've had success with in coco?

I just finished my 3rd grow in coco - here's my personal experience running 4 strains from seed (GDP, OG Kush; White Widow; Afghan Kush):
1st grow - coco/perlite - dry amendments (Dr. Earth) + microbes. Veg went fine, flower had deficiencies, needed to supplement with teas to get them thru. Decent quality mail colas, good terpene profiles, lowish yield, somewhat airy secondary buds, slow growth, low stretch, did not stack well. *** must let coco dry out partially between waterings or ran into issues.
2nd grow - coco/perlite - Botanicare bottled nutes (blend of organic/synthetic products), supplemented with Botanicare Pure Blend Tea (organic) + microbes. Veg and flower went great, good growth rates, buds denser than 1st grow, good terpene profiles, good yield, medium density, good speed of growth. *** low frequency fertigation, every 1-2 days depending on water uptake, kept medium semi damp, but not wet.
3rd grow - coco/perlite - GH nutes (3 part) - fully synthetic. Veg/flower were EXPLOSIVE, they literally grew into my lights and I had to chop in half just before flip. Super dense buds, excellent yield, no deficiencies entire grow, terpene profiles SUCK, entire grow no smell at all unless you touch buds. Currently drying and curing so I'll have to get back to you on bud quality later. *** high frequency fertigation 1-3x per day, 10+% runoff.

I would LOVE to go back to fully organic dry amendments, but I do feel like there is a very delicate balancing act with treating coco like soil. You have to make sure to not let coco dry out fully, but definitely let it dry back between waterings. Dry amendments + supplemental teas/nutes + microbes = only need to water. But I feel like even letting coco dry back and not watering as frequently, it doesn't hold nutes like soil, so I find it needs supplemental nutes throughout the grow.

My holy grail would be to be able to grow HYDRO STYLE (high frequency fertigation) in coco, but with an organic product in the reservoir. However, that doesn't seem possible because organic inputs need to be broken down before being readily available to the plants, which takes time. PLUS, organic nutes don't hold in a reservoir, they start to stink up and build biofilm within a day or two.

If I could at least find an excellent quality organic nute that can be watered in like synthetic nutes and be immediately bioavailable, that might work. So, that's what I've been on the hunt for. If you've found an organic product that provides readily available nutrients to plants (like synthetics), I'm all ears

Try geoflora dry nutrients. It’s been working out amazing.

AmWeedwolf · Aug 26, 2021

So you know, all of the following contain synthetic ingredients and would not qualify as "certified organic" (except under a few rare and documented circumstances for two of them) and maybe for a third:

camoflouge312 said:
GO calmag+ organic.

This one isn't even on the OIM list. It contains Magnesium Nitrate which is not allowed in organic production systems under any circumstances. Ironically, Ancient Forest is the only General Organics product that is on the OIM list.

camoflouge312 said:
Nectar for the gods Kraken

This one is also not on the OIM list. It contains phosphoric acid, a synthetic fertilizer not allowed in organic production

camoflouge312 said:
Iguana juice grow and bloom base

On the OIM list but contains synthetic micronutrients that are only allowed in organic production systems with a soil or tissues test documenting deficiency. I once had some DaKine 420 basic coco/perlite mix (with nothing added) tested for micronutrients and I could not document any. Even the molybdenum cleared the 0.15 ppm threshold for deficiency.

camoflouge312 said:
Big bud organic oim bloom boost

This one is also on the IOM list, but also contains synthetic micronutrients (see above) and also contains calcium chloride which makes it only allowed as a foliar spray to treat a physiological disorder associated with calcium uptake. It also contains synthetic magnesium sulfate that is only allowed with a documented soil deficiency.

camoflouge312 said:
citric acid

Not all citric acid is approved for organics. Some citric acid is produced using genetically engineered Aspergillus niger which is not allowed. If you want to follow the NOP regulations, you'll need to use non-GMO produced citric acid.

It's amazing how many fertilizers marketed as "organic" really aren't.

Inspiteofme · Sep 6, 2021

In coco, i grow sativa girls usually around 80 to 90 days in bud, I find it best to use mineral ferts until i can knock the plants whole root mass out from the pot in one piece once i can then i top dress with bat shit give a dose of bactor at week 2 of flower and then ph'ed mineral water with half strength bloom nutes and just a smidgeon of triacontanol from ThePlantGrowthCompany , no bloom boosters no pk boosters and no ripeners and i get half a kilo of stinky clean burning haze from my spaces every 5 or 6 weeks

Inspiteofme · Sep 6, 2021

Inspiteofme said:
In coco, i grow sativa girls usually around 80 to 90 days in bud, I find it best to use mineral ferts until i can knock the plants whole root mass out from the pot in one piece once i can then i top dress with bat shit give a dose of bactor at week 2 of flower and then ph'ed mineral water with half strength bloom nutes and just a smidgeon of triacontanol from ThePlantGrowthCompany , no bloom boosters no pk boosters and no ripeners and i get half a kilo of stinky clean burning haze from my spaces every 5 or 6 weeks

so yes i think to a degree organics do have a place in the world of the coir grower

PizzaBob · Sep 6, 2021

KanaGirl said:
Can you share which "readily available" nutrient blends you've had success with in coco?

I just finished my 3rd grow in coco - here's my personal experience running 4 strains from seed (GDP, OG Kush; White Widow; Afghan Kush):
1st grow - coco/perlite - dry amendments (Dr. Earth) + microbes. Veg went fine, flower had deficiencies, needed to supplement with teas to get them thru. Decent quality mail colas, good terpene profiles, lowish yield, somewhat airy secondary buds, slow growth, low stretch, did not stack well. *** must let coco dry out partially between waterings or ran into issues.
2nd grow - coco/perlite - Botanicare bottled nutes (blend of organic/synthetic products), supplemented with Botanicare Pure Blend Tea (organic) + microbes. Veg and flower went great, good growth rates, buds denser than 1st grow, good terpene profiles, good yield, medium density, good speed of growth. *** low frequency fertigation, every 1-2 days depending on water uptake, kept medium semi damp, but not wet.
3rd grow - coco/perlite - GH nutes (3 part) - fully synthetic. Veg/flower were EXPLOSIVE, they literally grew into my lights and I had to chop in half just before flip. Super dense buds, excellent yield, no deficiencies entire grow, terpene profiles SUCK, entire grow no smell at all unless you touch buds. Currently drying and curing so I'll have to get back to you on bud quality later. *** high frequency fertigation 1-3x per day, 10+% runoff.

I would LOVE to go back to fully organic dry amendments, but I do feel like there is a very delicate balancing act with treating coco like soil. You have to make sure to not let coco dry out fully, but definitely let it dry back between waterings. Dry amendments + supplemental teas/nutes + microbes = only need to water. But I feel like even letting coco dry back and not watering as frequently, it doesn't hold nutes like soil, so I find it needs supplemental nutes throughout the grow.

My holy grail would be to be able to grow HYDRO STYLE (high frequency fertigation) in coco, but with an organic product in the reservoir. However, that doesn't seem possible because organic inputs need to be broken down before being readily available to the plants, which takes time. PLUS, organic nutes don't hold in a reservoir, they start to stink up and build biofilm within a day or two.

If I could at least find an excellent quality organic nute that can be watered in like synthetic nutes and be immediately bioavailable, that might work. So, that's what I've been on the hunt for. If you've found an organic product that provides readily available nutrients to plants (like synthetics), I'm all ears

I’ve tried a lot of things in coco. The one “organic” nutes that’s worked and wasn’t too crazy was GEn Hydroponic’s GO line up. I used it exactly as directed and had excellent results. Maybe a bit slower to harvest but quality was tops. It does tend to mix up to a very low pH making me think it’s not as organic as some demand but close enough for me. Prolly using a questionable acid for shelf life and extractions. I used the pH up from nectar for the gods. Although now I only use ANs. And their up and down is the only thing I use by them.

And yes I watered in like a synthetic and it’s immediately available unlike stuff like Down to Earth. I never really tried making more than enough fir each watering which sucked. So making sure pots are big enough such that not more than 1 watering a day is imperative. And able to go two days is nice.

Why organic nutrients do not work in coco

Why organic nutrients do not work in coco

the123321

Dirtbag

fatconeskills

cemchris

the123321

cemchris

camoflouge312

RealizedReal000

Kgunge

camoflouge312

Kgunge

Whiskydrunk420

RealizedReal000

AnimalHouse

KanaGirl

RealizedReal000

AmWeedwolf

Inspiteofme

Inspiteofme

PizzaBob

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