will this cause a nute lock out!!!

[oMR BUDo]

hey peeps i have a question that i would like to know the answer to so for those of you out there that know i would be greatful for your reply!!!!

when fixing any deficiency lets say a calcium for example would it be okay to foiliar spray some cal supplement on the leaves as well as adding a cal supplement to the roots to fix the deficiency for a week or so or will that cause a nute lock out by over dosing the plant with to much calcium if you foiliar spray some cal at the same time as adding extra cal to the roots to correct the original calcium problem!!!

THANKS!!!

 

[GR33NL3AF]

https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/does-ca-lockout-resemble-ca-deficiency.61424/

Check this thread out.... I would foliar some calcium and go from there...

 

[oMR BUDo]

hey green leaf thanks for your reply and the link to the thread you sent me!!!

i'm not actually asking what i should do as i have already made what i think is a mistake of trying to correct a cal deficiency by adding 1ml per litre of cal mag as directed to the roots which ups the ppm by about 150 ppm and also foliar feeding 1ml per litre of water of a cal supplement once a day and i did this for a little over a week and it didnt clear it up as i was still noticing little rust spots forming on some of the upper young leaves so i then gave them a 2 day flush with a mild solution of nutes a little under 1/4 strenght as the only reason i could think of as to why it hasnt cleared up was that maybe i caused a cal lockout by trying to correct the cal deficiency at the root zone and by foliar spraying at the same time!!!
its only been 2 days now since i finished flushing for 2 days and i am now only trying to correct the deficiency by adding cal mag just to the roots and NO foliar spraying and the guy in your thread thinks he could of caused a cal lockout doing the same kinda thing as i did by giving a cal supplement to the root zone aswell as foliar spraying cal at the same time so my question is will adding a cal supplement to the root zone as well as foliar feeding cal a cause a cal lockout!!!!

THANKS PEOPLES

 

[chikken]

is the calcium solution you using labeled for foliar spraying ?

 

[oMR BUDo]

hey chicken it doesnt mention on the back of the bottle about foliar spraying it just recomends 1 to 2 ml of cal per litre of water!!!
i didnt think it needed to specify on the bottle about foliar feeding any type of nutes or supplements tho i could be wrong!!!
1 used canna mono calcium supplement made for calcium deficiencies at 1ml per litre of water along with a wetting agent so the leaves absorb it easier!!!!
1 also used plant magic cal mag at 1ml per litre of water in my res tho they do suggest 1 to 2 ml per litre but i didnt want my ppm to raise to high and its better to start low first and then add more if need be so i went with the 1ml per litre of water!!!
i kept my ph between 5.6 and 5.8 so it would up take the calcium and i know i havent metioned it yet but i am growing in rdwc system with res temps between 66f and 70f at max!!!
i know it can take up to 1 week to correct a deficiency and where i could still see on new upper young leaves little rust spots still popping up about a week and a half later that told me it hadnt corrected it and the only thing i could think of was that maybe i caused a cal lockout due to foliar spraying along with adding cal at the root zone which is why i flushed for 2 days before trying to correct the deficiency only through the root zone which i am now 2 days into!!!!
i also know why i got the cal deficiency in the first place and that was down to me NOT adding enough cal mag to my res for the first 2 to 3 weeks to supplement the fact that im using ro water, i was only adding 100 ppm of cal mag to my res!!!!!
i now add cal mag to my ro water at 250 ppm before adding anything else and im giving it an extra 150 ppm which is 1ml per litre of water recommended of cal mag to try and correct the deficiency which stands me in at 400 ppm cal mag for the next week where i will then drop down to 250 ppm of cal mag after deficiency has cleared, also after adding my nutes at 250 ppm supplements and additives my total ppm stand me in at 650 ppm!!!!

 

[Theoneandonly Z]

The best way to treat any deficiency is to ask the question "why" before treating your plant. "Why do I have a lockout/deficiency?"
I see too many times when someone acts to fast to correct a problem but only worsens it. Hope everything turns out for u. Did u get black necrotic spots after foliar?

 

[Seamaiden]

Short answer--yes, you can cause a lockout if you overuse, whether it's being delivered into the plant via stomata or roots. It's all going into the same plant, right? ;)

So, are you adding Ca, or are you adding Ca+Mg? All Cal-Mag supplements I've seen have an incorrect ratio of Ca:Mg.

 

[oMR BUDo]

The best way to treat any deficiency is to ask the question "why" before treating your plant. "Why do I have a lockout/deficiency?"
I see too many times when someone acts to fast to correct a problem but only worsens it. Hope everything turns out for u. Did u get black necrotic spots after foliar?

hey mister hows it going buddy, i agree with what your saying 100% and as i said in my previous post the reason i believe i originally got the cal deficiency to begin with was because i wernt supplementing enough cal mag in my ro water for the first couple of weeks as i was only adding 0.2 EC of cal mag and where im new to using ro water i can see now that that wernt enough cal mag as my water straight from the tap before it goes through thr ro machine is o.6 EC which is what i use to give my plants before turning to ro water and no i didn't get black necrotic spots after foliar feeding as they are rust looking just like a cal deficiency!!!!

 

[oMR BUDo]

The best way to treat any deficiency is to ask the question "why" before treating your plant. "Why do I have a lockout/deficiency?"
I see too many times when someone acts to fast to correct a problem but only worsens it. Hope everything turns out for u. Did u get black necrotic spots after foliar?

Short answer--yes, you can cause a lockout if you overuse, whether it's being delivered into the plant via stomata or roots. It's all going into the same plant, right? ;)

So, are you adding Ca, or are you adding Ca+Mg? All Cal-Mag supplements I've seen have an incorrect ratio of Ca:Mg.

hey there miss maiden hows you doing, i know we haven't actually spoke before but i'd like to start off by saying thank you so much for simply being you as i have learn't quite a bit over the past few days by reading your answers to the problems other people have had and i must say i am most inspired and hope to one day reach your levels of wizdom!!! :o)

thanks for answering my question and when you put it like that it makes perfect sence that it would do!!!!

well i'm adding extra cal mag to my res, i'm giving them o.5 EC of cal mag as standered coz of my ro water and i am giving them extra cal mag on top of my 0.5 EC to bring it up to a level of 0.8 EC for a week till i hopefully fix the problem!!!
i use plant magic cal mag which has a ratio of 3.54% cal and 4.96% calcium oxide and 1.55% mag and 2.58% magnesium oxide so would you say they are in the correct range!!!

i do have a calcium supplement called canna mono which is 11.6% cao, would you say that that would of been better to use coz of it's ratio's!!!!

thanks again miss maiden your an angel!!! :o)

 

[Seamaiden]

I would go with the Canna mono being very careful because if I understand your notations, it's quicklime. Drop the Cal-Mag and get Epsom salts (MgSO4). I'd use the Ca separately from the Mg, alternating feeds. The Epsom I typically use starting at 1/4tsp/gal, and move up or down according to what the plant tells me. Because Mg is highly mobile it's a much easier -/+ to correct than Ca.

The Plant Magic MagiCal you're using has a terrible Ca:Mg ratio. If I worked the numbers right, it's approximately 2:1 Ca:Mg. You want at least 4:1 Ca:Mg, and I've just read that the minimum ratio (in soils) is 7:1 to as high as 15:1. I like 6:1 as a good base to start with coir cultivation, but haven't tried a higher ratio since getting the new learning.

 

[oMR BUDo]

thanks for your reply miss maiden but im growing in a hydroponics rdwc system so alternating feeds between my cal supplement and epson salts which i do already possess is not practical to do unlike growing in soil which is what i think you think im growing in by mistake and i think you miss understand my previous question i asked as i didn't explain myself properly as i was asking if the cal supplemt that i have would of been better to use instead of adding extra cal mag that i have to correct the cal problem im dealing with coz of there different ratios!!!!

also am i right in thinking that it would take about 1 week to correct a cal deficiency!!!!

THANK YOU!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

Ah, ok. So, no alternating feeds. Then yes, use the Ca product along with Epsom salts to achieve the proper ratio of Ca:Mg, and if it were me, I'd go heavier on the Ca (in terms of ppm's/EC) than the Mg since the Mg is so easily corrected.

In my experience, you will never correct a Ca-, you can only stop its progression.

 

[oMR BUDo]

okay then miss maiden i'l give it a try and see how it goes!!!!

well you have me slightly confused with your next answer as i thought stopping a deficiency progressing was the same thing as correcting it so could you please explain just what you mean miss maiden!!!

for example next week i want to flip the lights to 12/12 to start flowering once i sort the cal deficiency out and a couple of my plants have already stunted in growth because of the cal deficiency so are you saying that no matter what my effected plants will stay stunted and will produce less yield even if the problem is resolved and the progression is stopped!!!!

also lets say you had 2 deficiencies at the same time for example lets say you had a phosphorus and a mag, how would you go about correcting them both at the same time, would you say try and correct one lets say phosphorus by adding a phosphorus supplement to the root zone for a week whilst foliar spraying epson salts at the same time once a day during that same week or would you advise only correcting one deficiency at a time so lets say the phosphorus first by root zone for a week then epson salts by either root zone or foliar spraying the following week!!!!

sorry to be a pain in the ass as i do appreciate your time and your help!!!

THANKS MISS MAIDEN!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

So right now your plants are stunted, and they've been flipped. IMO you're behind the gun on this and will be chasing the correction of the deficiency, and I think it very well could affect both quality and yield, though by how much is impossible for me to say. IF you gain new growth that does not develop signs of continued deficiency, then you could very well be perfectly fine, but it's a wait & see thing.

I think the problem you're having is understanding mobility of nutrients within plant tissues. Ca is immobile, that means that once it's laid down in plant tissues it cannot be translocated to other tissues. That's why a Ca- always shows on the newest growth.

Mg and N? Mobile. That's why you see deficiencies occurring on lower growth, or older growth, because the plant is translocating needed nutrients from those tissues to the new tissues.

I don't work on two issues at the same time, I work by process of elimination, ESPECIALLY with regard to elemental nutrients. If you look at the Mulder's Mineral Wheel, you'll understand why it's a bit more prudent to problem solve by that method, for me at least. So, I would deal with the most pressing issue at the time, and deal with the easiest solved problems last. So Mg- is stupid easy to resolve by foliar or root drench, P is not quite as easy, P would be what I address. However! That doesn't mean I'll just start dumping more P onto the plants (hehhehe... I didn't mean the pun at first, but I'm leavin' it!), but first would double check that everything else, including media parameters such as temps and pH, are in check. THEN, and only then, would I begin to address a perceived P- *as* a simple P-.


Check out my charts, read through that stuff, then we go at it again.

 

[oMR BUDo]

hey miss maiden.... i haven't actually flipped the lights yet so im still in veg tho i was thinking to flip in 4 to 7 days as i heard that its best to correct and solve any deficiencies that you may have in veg before flipping the lights to 12/12, if this is the case and is best to do so before you flip could you please explain why miss maiden!!!!

as i said before 3 of my plants had stunted for a couple of weeks due to cal dificiency tho i think i have stopped the progression now due to the fact that no new upper growth has rust spots on them like before and i can see the plants are starting to grow again ( tho they are now smaller than the other plants due to them previously being stunted )
so would you suggest leaving them a bit longer in veg to gain some more growth before i flip as its been 6 weeks already in veg which is 2 weeks longer than i'd like as i normally only veg for 4 weeks but as i said before i wanted to sort the cal deficiency out before i flipped!!!!!

could you please explain what the words elemental nutrients mean!!!!

also i have looked at your mulders mineral wheel on six different occasions over and over again trying as hard as i can to the point where im almost bursting a blood vessel to try and understand just what it is i'm looking at and what its trying to tell me but i cant get past me having a blond ( dumb ) moment as all i see are random lines and arrows pointing in all dirrections confusing the hell out of me to the point of giving me brain ache and twitchy eyes so if you dont mind miss maiden i would be forever greatful if you could explain to me just what im looking at with that mulders chart so i can understand it the way you do!!!!

thank you for being so helpful your a super star miss maiden as i am taking in everything you tell me and your pun with dumping more P onto plants did make me giggle ( hehehe )!!!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

Basically, you don't want to put plants into flower that are not at their optimum health. I would leave the plants that are turning around to veg, give them a few days to a week, every day you can reassess the situation and if they're looking really hearty and hale, go for it.

Elemental nutrients are nutrients that are elements. Iron is an element, gold is an element, salt, silver--periodic table kinda stuff.

I like that mineral wheel the best because it tells you on the side what each chemical notation is (the elements), AND it's more complete than many wheels I've seen, AND the arrows indicate what elements are synergistic (work together) and antagonistic (work against). For example, I'm sure you've read some folks say things like using too much potassium will lock out other nutrients. Looking at the wheel gives you a graphic visual of that.

Punny. :D

 

[oMR BUDo]

hey miss maiden i hope all is well with you today!!!

well thank you for your previous reply i have taken on board what you have said tho still struggling a bit with 1 or 2 questions regarding the mulders mineral wheel!!!

after looking at the wheel again after what you explained above i now understand that when 2 arrows on the same line point away from each other that it can cause a nute lock out if you add too much of any of those 2 specific nutrient!!!

however when you say that when 2 arrows on the same line point towards each other they are synergistic ( work together ) do you mean that those 2 specific nutrients cant lock each other out no matter how much of those 2 nutes you put in!!!!

also i noticed on the mineral wheel that there were some lines with only 1 arrow pointing a certen way towards 1 specific element, what does that mean miss maiden!!!!

thank you for your help miss maiden your a hero!!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

Arrows pointing towards each other, or synergy, means that in order for the one mineral/element to be able to be used or to work best, it must have some of another mineral. A great example here would be Ca and B. It doesn't require much boron, but there must be a wee little bit (can't remember the exact ratio) in order for plants to be able to utilize Ca.

The arrow pointing one way is one notation I haven't yet sorted, and since I don't know who created that particular image, I can't contact them and say, "Uh, HAY! What's that mean?" Since I don't have actual plant physiology training/education, I leave you bereft. But, my guess is that it indicates chemical reactions that can only occur in one 'direction' (such as oxidation reaction). Perhaps @squiggly or @leadsled would know!

 

[oMR BUDo]

well miss maiden i'd like to take this opportunity to thank you for taking the time out to help me which was very thoughtful of you as i do appreciate all you have done so thanks once again and keep it budalicious!!!

 

[Seamaiden]

You just do your nick justice and grow some really damn good weed, mkay? That'll make me very happy. :)