Worms in soil

[MASSES 420KING]

hay good news guys logic edited my thread and is going to post the full article for all the farmers to see

 

[dican01]

Dican, I don't see how vermiculite is going to aerate anything it's mixed with. It can't because it holds water and keeps the medium wet. It clumps together when wet, too, thus further preventing aeration. Perlite does help lighten it, but 'aeration' is something a little more nebulous outside of books like Sunset West.

Seriously, there's nothing inherently wrong with people giving a couple of worms a try, is there?

You know the best growers?

maybe you are confused about aeration. perlite and vermiculite both help hold water. water (h20) contains oxygen. perlite particles create tiny air tunnels, which allow moisture and oxygen to flow freely to roots.
a good basic aerated soil consists of equal parts perlite or vermiculite, sphagnum peat moss, and sand.
it seems odd to me that people would want their soil more aerated than it already is. i have never had aeration problems and see no need to have worm holes in my already aerated indoor soil. it would NOT help my garden.
there is nothing wrong with people trying new things. i would like to see a post where someone actually tried it and posted results. oh wait, they have. seems like everyone is saying to leave the worms outdoors.
and no, i do not know all of the best growers. i just know they don't put worms into their soil. they put worm castings, not worms.
i don't know why this is all so hard to understand.
i also don't understand why if you were so interested in worms, that you wouldn't start a worm bin. this is what you do with red worms, or go fishing. not put them into your containers. i would recommend for all of those interested in putting worms into your containers to first start a worm bin. i have had one for years. they just keep multiplying.

 

[Gro]

i have been adding worms to my o.d. for quite a while but i've yet to build a worm bed.revolt...,is it worth the time investment to maintain one.

 

[Seamaiden]

maybe you are confused about aeration. perlite and vermiculite both help hold water. water (h20) contains oxygen. perlite particles create tiny air tunnels, which allow moisture and oxygen to flow freely to roots.
a good basic aerated soil consists of equal parts perlite or vermiculite, sphagnum peat moss, and sand.
it seems odd to me that people would want their soil more aerated than it already is. i have never had aeration problems and see no need to have worm holes in my already aerated indoor soil. it would NOT help my garden.
there is nothing wrong with people trying new things. i would like to see a post where someone actually tried it and posted results. oh wait, they have. seems like everyone is saying to leave the worms outdoors.
and no, i do not know all of the best growers. i just know they don't put worms into their soil. they put worm castings, not worms.
i don't know why this is all so hard to understand.
i also don't understand why if you were so interested in worms, that you wouldn't start a worm bin. this is what you do with red worms, or go fishing. not put them into your containers. i would recommend for all of those interested in putting worms into your containers to first start a worm bin. i have had one for years. they just keep multiplying.

Dican, fair enough, though I disagree on who's confused regarding the terminology. It might be better to simply look the term up using Google than to tell me I'm confused on what the term means.

How would perlite create tunnels when it doesn't really move on its own? I disagree with you on what constitutes a 'good soil mix'. In large part because what you describe is not soil, but that's quibbling.

Why don't I start a worm bin?

• Time.
• Energy.
• Other priorities.
• The problems associated with maintaining a worm bin.
• Having worms in my (soil) pots doesn't cause a problem for my plants or me.

Are those enough reasons?

Ever think that having something like worms (and other beneficial organisms, be they micro or macro) might be like the proverbial canary in a coal mine? Perhaps the anecdotal evidence that has been presented as reason to not allow the presence of or cultivation of worms in contained soils isn't as clear cut as we might assume. Perhaps there was some other issue going on that caused the death of the worms in question and they merely acted as a first indicator to a larger problem.

<shrug>

Just sayin'.

 

[MASSES 420KING]

you really dont need to worry about creating a worm bed just go grab 2 worms throw them in your buckets theyll reproduce but if you really wanta keep a worm bin it really isnt hard or time consuming it also seems that logic 4got to post article so again guys give me a few hours and again go check out "REV AND GREENMAN 420s: CHUNKY CHERRY MALAWI'' thread grown true living organics style then all you nay sayers can hit me up :party0023:

 

[GreenMan420]

Growing Organic and growing TLO is different. Growing organic can be in any organic med and you use OMRI liquid or dry ferts to feed your plants.
TLO style Organics is feeding the soil, not the plant. Healthy soil means health plants.
And yes by all means go ahead and induce red worms in any size pot. The worms are super helpful and they will produce worm castings while in the pots. Too many worms will be bad unless you have enough food for them to survive. Otherwise they could start eating roots. I always find several live worms in my pots cruising around the roots when I harvest.
Growing indoor and Outdoor for the most part is the same. You have a closed space inside and you control it all. Outdoors you control nothing but water and feeding. Thats the difference.
Growing TLO, your soil is alive and when you grab a hand full of soil most peeps freak out and think I have bugs. haha I do. They are all doing their job in the soil.
My soil mixes are 50% recycled soil and 50% new.
I also have a worm farm right in my kitchen and never get any smells from it. They eat all kinds of things.
I use all natural/organic OMRI listed dry ferts and I make my own teas if a liquid fert is needed.
I never recommend trying to compost in the top of your plants to try and feed worms. You will get the raw material composting and it will possible make things super hot and fry the plant bad.

There are OMRI listed liquid ferts and they are good to use in TLO. You need to watch out for Natural base or organic based products. If it is not OMRI listed or says 100% Organic, beware. It is most likely organic, but has chelated salts to help the plant absorb the nutes faster. These salts are death in a bottle to TLO soil. any salt build up will kill the beneficial micro beasties, and ruin the soil.
I'll post pics of the worm farm and the site I got it at soon.

 

[GreenMan420]

http://www.homecompostingsolutions.com/product/WB3T-GRN-0

Here is the website and some pics of my worm bin in action.

 

[GreenMan420]

Here is the link to The REv's , Yo Rolan thread at skunk. You might have to be a member to see. I'm not sure, but I think you can just go there as a guest.

http://skunkmagazine.com/forum/index.php?topic=1830.0

This thread is 3 years of Organic info.

 

[dican01]

Dican, fair enough, though I disagree on who's confused regarding the terminology. It might be better to simply look the term up using Google than to tell me I'm confused on what the term means.

How would perlite create tunnels when it doesn't really move on its own? I disagree with you on what constitutes a 'good soil mix'. In large part because what you describe is not soil, but that's quibbling.

Why don't I start a worm bin?

• Time.
• Energy.
• Other priorities.
• The problems associated with maintaining a worm bin.
• Having worms in my (soil) pots doesn't cause a problem for my plants or me.

Are those enough reasons?

Ever think that having something like worms (and other beneficial organisms, be they micro or macro) might be like the proverbial canary in a coal mine? Perhaps the anecdotal evidence that has been presented as reason to not allow the presence of or cultivation of worms in contained soils isn't as clear cut as we might assume. Perhaps there was some other issue going on that caused the death of the worms in question and they merely acted as a first indicator to a larger problem.

<shrug>

Just sayin'.

do your research man. vermiculite contains potassium, magnesium and calcium available in slow release. it has an absorbent capacity for fertilizer and also buffering and oxygen exchange. perlite provides excellent drainage while trapping air and water on its' irregular surface. perlite will hold 3-4 times it own weight in water and comes in many sizes. it is neutral in reaction and has no buffering action.
now, do you want more reasons not to have worms in your soil indoors? i will give you more. not only are you risking invasive creatures, you are risking mold, which is a serious problem for a lot of growers. molds can and do develop in natural succession during the vermicomposting process. if you do have worms or a worm bin, it is recommended (not just by me), that you keep them outside. "worms eat my garbage" by mary appelhof is the best book on the subject. i am quoting some stuff almost word for word from there. check it out if you don't believe me.
i grow organic dude. i have plenty of beneficials. my indoor plants never go outside and my cat still has her claws.
just curious, how long have you had worms in your soil indoors?

 

[Seamaiden]

For as long as I've been growing indoors, which admittedly ain't long at all. But I've been growing plants all my adult life, so I think I can say with some assurance that I'm not a complete moron when it comes to growing. One thing I've learned since doing it indoors is that unless you utilize clean-room and quarantine techniques of the highest order, invasive species are going to get inside. Fungus gnats are the species I'm constantly battling. Could be worse, for sure.

But if you really wanna get serious about doing your research, how about *you* start with the term "aeration"? It doesn't refer to water's CO2/O2 exchange, nor does it refer in any way to the alkalinity of a given substance.

What does the mineral content of vermiculite have to do with your previous assertions?

How does water drain 'through' perlite, and how does water provide aeration? What buffering action, and by what means, does perlite provide?

These are all your assertions, not mine. Support them yourself.

Worm bins are fantastic. For those who have the time and energy to do the whole thing. I'm not one of those people, I'm perfectly happy supporting my local business that supports a local supplier and buying my worm castings from them.

I grow as organically as I can as well. What do you want me to do, go un-pot all my soil plants, pick out the worms and set them free? Or are you worried that people are gonna go wrangle a buncha wild worms and kill them all by putting them in their indoor grows, thus setting off an annelid disaster that hasn't been experienced since the Permian extinction event?

 

[dican01]

For as long as I've been growing indoors, which admittedly ain't long at all. But I've been growing plants all my adult life, so I think I can say with some assurance that I'm not a complete moron when it comes to growing. One thing I've learned since doing it indoors is that unless you utilize clean-room and quarantine techniques of the highest order, invasive species are going to get inside. Fungus gnats are the species I'm constantly battling. Could be worse, for sure.

But if you really wanna get serious about doing your research, how about *you* start with the term "aeration"? It doesn't refer to water's CO2/O2 exchange, nor does it refer in any way to the alkalinity of a given substance.

What does the mineral content of vermiculite have to do with your previous assertions?

How does water drain 'through' perlite, and how does water provide aeration? What buffering action, and by what means, does perlite provide?

These are all your assertions, not mine. Support them yourself.

Worm bins are fantastic. For those who have the time and energy to do the whole thing. I'm not one of those people, I'm perfectly happy supporting my local business that supports a local supplier and buying my worm castings from them.

I grow as organically as I can as well. What do you want me to do, go un-pot all my soil plants, pick out the worms and set them free? Or are you worried that people are gonna go wrangle a buncha wild worms and kill them all by putting them in their indoor grows, thus setting off an annelid disaster that hasn't been experienced since the Permian extinction event?

there is a reason every brand of indoor soil uses perlite and vermiculite and not worms. pretty sure you can grow in just perlite if you want. the soil i use, and have always used, has never had drainage or aeration problems. if you need bettter drainage, you can add some perlite or clay pellets at the bottom of your pot.
again, do your research. i don't want to do it for you. no REAL research has been done on the subject of worms in containers. i wonder why? maybe it is a bad idea.
lots of research has been done about perlite and vermiculite. check it out for yourself or call or email a soil company. if you don't have years of experience and success with worms indoors, then why are you defending them?
plus, your garden is different seamaiden, you did not introduce them yourself. there is really nothing you can do. of course you are not going to dig them up. the worms are there and you have to make peace with it.
my concern is for the people who would take worms and put them into their indoor garden, thinking it would give them extra food and aeration. i do quarantine, and sterility is important to me. i live in southern california now, where powdery mildew is a big problem.
i used to have an organic farm in eugene oregon for a couple of years and am plenty familiar with outdoor growing. i have also been growing indoors for several years. i can tell you that the two are very different things.
i didn't make the rules here, i just play by them. i wish we didn't have to grow indoors at all.
i understand the idea and the intent behind the worms indoors, i just think that what is good in theory, sometimes isn't very practical.
i really don't think too many people are going to put worms in their soil, but for those brave few that do, please post your results.

 

[Seamaiden]

Naw, man, I'll let your post stand as it is. The subject at hand is clearly far more important to you than it is to me. :D

 

[MASSES 420KING]

Sorry if this sounds stupid... Instead of worm castings in soil, can you just put a couple live worms in your containers?

absolutley yes you can and its good for your plants but on the same token if your gonna use worms you also mine as well add the rest of the micro/macro-beasties to the mix and no tap water it will kill your microlife or damage it severly go look at the tlo thread we got going im not a 100% tlo grower i have only begun[1-2 years ago] and i only do two at a time until i get the complete grasp there is definately qualified people on this forum and one who is more or less partners with the guy who mastered the technique and is still trying to bring to the forefront i use tlo for my heady head sacks:bong-hits:

 

[MASSES 420KING]

and DICAN YOU ALSO CAN GROW IN 100%PERLITE OR A 50/50 MIX OF VERMICULITE AND PERLITE ALSOYOU CAN SPLIT YOUR BUCKET INTO TWO SECTIONS BY PLACING A PIECE OF PLASTIC AS A PARTITION WALL AND USE PROMIX ON ONE SIDE AND PERLITE ON THE OTHER AND TRIPLE DOSE FEED YOUR PROMIX SIDE AND STRATE RO WATER ON OTHER SIDE IN THE PERLITE AND PULL 3-4 ZIPS IN ONE GALLON BUCKETS IVE SEEN IT DONE

 

[Ryan Park]

Bt Worm Killer by Green Light: contains Bacillus Thuringiensis (12.0%) a eliminating bacterial organism which causes disease in certain insects, thereby controlling them. An insect that eats B.T. will stop feeding immediately. They will then die one to five days later due to disintegration of the digestive tract and the resulting starvation. - It's made to spray on leaves but you can water it into the soil. The larva eat the roots, ingesting the Bt and then they die within days. I heard Mosquito Dunks work also. Both products can be found at Walmart, Lowes or Home Depot.

 

[ogtealover420]

Well I use FFOF and FFHF mixed with Just Coir and perilite and I will tell you what. I had a pot that wasfull of nice size worms i mean like 15+ in the pot I noticed one day when I felt like scratching the top of the crazy root ball that was showing atop of of the moist soil( i keep em moist ) and I believe the large root mass was partly due to aeration of the worms and they where about 2 inches below soil line all bunched on one side of the pot (it was tiltedd to the side) and they were the best looking plants IMHO! I will note i fed the worms nothing but they looked juicy as hell!

 

[StonerB]

First off im too stoned to read ALL 6 previous pages so im sorry if this is a repatative answer. I have been using live worms in my container gardens for some time now with varrying success. In the first few attempts the worms would do all they could to get out of my "compost" bin and any that stayed died. This was O.K. at the time because the soil was part of a 3-6 month recycling program and the worms were left over bait so even dead worms were all good to me. I always have several experiments going so I cant be sure exactly but I beleive a big concern for the worms is the PH and the level of residual ferts if using old soil. I was also a noob at the time that beleived the Foxfarm line was all organic, (oops) . Now that I know better and use ONLY organic inputs my worms are alive , thriving , multiplying, adding oxygenation and shitting out fresh naturally chelated food for my plants. I have no idea what type of worm they are but I have added several varieties from several sources over the years to my "mother-Load" of soil so natural selection has decided what stays. The best part is during transplanting when you see the contrast of their fleshy pink squirming in n out of you bright white rootball , it looks like the picture on Roots organics bag of Big worm but in real life.

 

[shaganja]

there is a reason every brand of indoor soil uses perlite and vermiculite and not worms. pretty sure you can grow in just perlite if you want. the soil i use, and have always used, has never had drainage or aeration problems. if you need bettter drainage, you can add some perlite or clay pellets at the bottom of your pot.
again, do your research. i don't want to do it for you. no REAL research has been done on the subject of worms in containers. i wonder why? maybe it is a bad idea.
lots of research has been done about perlite and vermiculite. check it out for yourself or call or email a soil company. if you don't have years of experience and success with worms indoors, then why are you defending them?
plus, your garden is different seamaiden, you did not introduce them yourself. there is really nothing you can do. of course you are not going to dig them up. the worms are there and you have to make peace with it.
my concern is for the people who would take worms and put them into their indoor garden, thinking it would give them extra food and aeration. i do quarantine, and sterility is important to me. i live in southern california now, where powdery mildew is a big problem.
i used to have an organic farm in eugene oregon for a couple of years and am plenty familiar with outdoor growing. i have also been growing indoors for several years. i can tell you that the two are very different things.
i didn't make the rules here, i just play by them. i wish we didn't have to grow indoors at all.
i understand the idea and the intent behind the worms indoors, i just think that what is good in theory, sometimes isn't very practical.
i really don't think too many people are going to put worms in their soil, but for those brave few that do, please post your results.

These rules were put in place by big nutes. They made bottled nutrients, and bagged soil, and metal halides, and high pressure sodium lights, and said "this is the only way" it makes them money. This rules you talk of don't exist. Worms die indoors because, lights too hot, or so much perlite they get sliced to death. Open your mind. Get rid of those silly rules that don't exist. You will be a happier farmer! Many growers use worms. They love it! They post about it! Organic soil is on the rise too! Sorry if you don't like them, but the future is regenerative soil!