yellowing bottom leaves.. need a doc please help!

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shamaneurope

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Hi guys,

I have the same problem for more than a week now... The bottom leaves are rapidly yellowing... i pick the yellow ones and new ones are introduced the next day...

I though it was N deficiency but i guess it was not.. now I cut down the nutrition solution for a week now but the yellowing still is there...

It may be overwatering, now I give less water...

I am in the vegetation stage, I guess the last one or two weeks...

please help me.. thanks

S:rollj:K





info about the plants:


I am growing in a cabinet, indoor

I have two fans. one powerful exhaust and a small fan ventilating fresh air in.

My watering schedule is once in every 3-4 days..

The PH is around 6.5 and the heat is around 23-28 Celcius Degrees. The humidity: around 35-55

I had planted my seeds about a month ago. And now in the "Vegetation Stage" and waiting for a couple of more weeks before going on to 12/12 flowering..

The lighting is with 8 Light Bulbs (i am using white wiselite 72Watss (5300 Lumen) each for vegetation, will then place yellow daylight ones for the flowering)

For the nutrition I had used a root solution once.

Now I use a "N" based vegetation solution by BioBizz
 
Yellowing bottom leaves  need a doc please help
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shamaneurope

27
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1. Are you growing from seed or clones?
seeds
2. How old are your plants?
~1.5 months
3. How tall are your plants?
40 cm - 45cm
4. What size containers are they planted in?
30cmx30cm
5. What is your soil mix?
100% biomix
6. How often do you water and what type of water do you use?
once every 3 days, drinking water
7. What is the pH of your water?
6.2
8. What kind of fertilizer do you use and what is its NPK ratio?
3:1:3 Biomix Vegetation
9. Do you foliar feed or spray your plants with anything?
no
10. What kind of lights do you use and how many watts combined? (HPS, MH, fluorescent, halogen, incandescent "plant lights")
8 x 72W big bulbs
11. How close are your lights to the plants?
10cm
12. What size is your grow space in square feet?
1 meter square
13. What is the temperature and humidity in your grow space
21-27 celcius 40%-50% RH

14. What is the pH of the soil?
6.3
15. Have you noticed any insect activity in your grow space?
Yes, bugs fly in black flies
16. How much experience do you have growing?
this is my first grow
 
Snowblind

Snowblind

Kush Mints x Animal Cookie Bx2 Specialist
Supporter
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Some kind of general lock out. Looks like some mag issue to me though.... From the sick plants sticky...I quote

"Nitrogen is the biggest mobile element meaning it can travel anywhere on the plant.
Usually the def will start on the lower to middle part of the plant, and then will usually happen to older leaves first. Then the deficiency will work its way up the plant. Your plant can be green on top, then yellowing on the lower leaves when the deficiency is starting out. Yield will be greatly reduced without good amounts of nitrogen in your plants. Sometimes in bad cases the leaves will turn a purplish color along with the yellowing.

Unlike a magnesium deficiency, nitrogen def will start from the tips and work its way back to the leaf node. Nitrogen and Magnesium get confused. The best way to tell them apart is, nitrogen deficiency starts around the tips and works its way to the back of the leaves, where a magnesium deficiency will cover the entire outer part of the leave and make the entire leaves yellow leaving the veins to stay green. If your plants are having a slow growth rate and have yellowing of the leaves, then most likely it’s a nitrogen deficiency."

I see some yellowing at the tips but I see green vein in your picures, like a mag uptake issue.. You need to figure out what is causing the lockout. Some kind of issue at the root zone with uptake though for sure. Sorry I cant be more help.

I want to point out that adding Mag to the soil, even though you are Mag deficient in the plant, might not fix the uptake issue....
 
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shamaneurope

27
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i thought i had Nitrogen Burn so i cut that out a week ago and just watered my plants now and the leaves are even yellower... some died...

i will spray some english salt for magnesium now... but cannot give Nitrogen based water for at least two days...

i have also some purple stems (overwatering i guess)

i am so afraid they will perrish in a few days... i lost 4-5 leaves every day...
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
23,596
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Not nitrogen burn, they're RIGHT on the edge of burning altogether, and that's not a bad thing. They're eating the nitrogen in those lower leaves, in my opinion. Purple (maybe more reddish?) stems are a sign of phosphorous uptake issues, also the necrosis at the tips of the leaves indicate a phosphorous problem, possibly a deficiency assuming your pH numbers are correct. I believe they're trying to grow harder and need their feed upped just a little bit, and there are a few ways to do this but simply increasing, slightly, the amount of Biomix you feed should give results one way or the other.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with any of the products you're listing as media and feed.

Here's a quick tip/trick for helping determine if there's also a magnesium DEFICIENCY occurring, and it's very simple, but the recipe I know and use is for MgSO4 @ 9%, which is U.S. Epsom salts, so what you want is something that will provide plant-available magnesium like Epsom does.
1/4t (teaspoon) MgSO4 mixed with 1 gallon (a little over 2 liters) clean water, the water you're using to feed and water is just fine, given as a foliar feed (fine spray, on the leaves). Be sure to use a surfactant, so a drop or two of dish detergent (um... washing up liquid?) will do the trick there for you. Foliar, and observe for two days, see if the yellowing is reduced.

The necrotic areas won't come back, but if it's magnesium then the yellowing should stop. If it's nitrogen then feeding more nitrogen will get the yellow leaves to green back up.

****Edit****
Looking again, definitely a phosphorous issue, but also on some lower, inside leaves I see interveinal chlorosis that indicates magnesium deficiency (or uptake issue). Phosphorous presents as reddened/purplish petioles (the stems that attach leaves to their main branch or stalk) as well as necrosis occurring from the leaf tips backward. I also see on some leaves what's looking like a classic calcium problem, again either uptake or deficiency, which shows as the necrotic spots that occur along leaf veins. If Ca is out of whack then that can very easily throw Mg uptake out of whack, and vice versa.

In soil dolomitic lime is a good, but slow, fix.
 
O

OnlyKush

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Your feeding them too much from the looks of them. Salt build up dude, feet once a week or water twice with pure water in between the hittings.
 
L

lil miss lone

281
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I gather from the "little black bugs" and the leaf symptoms you may have root aphids brother. I did a thread on them, plus I believe there is other info on them around here, read up. Luck to ya bro.
 
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shamaneurope

27
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treatment

thank you for the detailed explanation...

i had just added some vegetation solution BioGrow (NPK 8:2:6) today.

the lights are turned on for 21 hours a day...

i have also one more solutions Bio-Bloom (NPK 2:6:3.5)

i was waiting to use it after flowering starts.. should i use it right away for P?

should I use the Mg treatment right away or wait for Nitrogen problem to fix?

The salt or overwatering lockdown should i do something about that?

I am sorry for asking this much questions but i am a new gardener...

thanks for your patience

SK

PS UPDATE: I had also added some recent photos that i had just took
 
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shamaneurope

27
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and will they be normal again if i treat well or is this going down?
 
lazarus718

lazarus718

626
28
I'm leaning more towards the magnesium deficiency after seeing those green veins on your yellow leaves. It does look like a bit of a phosphorus problem as well because I do see some of your leaf tips curling upwards as well...start with a flush bro. Put at least two times as much water through those containers as their size (i.e. if you have a 3 gallon container flush at least 6 gallons through it) to help leach out some of the salts in your soil. I hope you aren't fertilizing them every watering. Definitely not a nitrogen issue. Follow the directions Seamaiden gave you for the epsom salt foliar feed and let them get cleaned out for a watering or two before feeding again. The black "flies" could prove to be an issue as well if they are root aphids. They could also be fungus gnats though and those are a little simpler to eradicate. Try to disable one without smashing it into pieces, if you have a decent camera take a photo for us and maybe we can help to diagnose better. Neem oil is a godsend and you can use it to get rid of most of the bugs, but if you have root aphids its going to require treatment at the root zone. Let us know what you end up trying out, but DO NOT pump in more nutes right now.
 
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shamaneurope

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i guess i had also a ventilation problem that i had just fixed...

in the green's bible is says that:

"PLANT NUTRIENT / CHEMICAL PROBLEMS AND HOW TO SOLVE THEM.
Before we begin we should tell you what a chemical burn is. A chemical burn is what the plant suffers because of over-feeding. A chemical burn can be compared to a half-smoked joint. At the tip of the joint you have this shriveled gray ash, in the middle you have the burn creeping towards new paper which leaves a pattern behind it, and then you have the part you have not smoked yet. A plant burn looks like this almost. The plant sucks up the water and the food. It distributes these elements to the leaves at the bottom first and then works its way up the plant. This process takes days to work as you know FROM WATERING and WHEN TO WATER! The damage starts at the tips of the leaf and slowly moves to the center of the leaf, leaving behind it some crispy matter that flakes away between your fingers. This is what a chemical burn looks like. A nutrient problem does not look burnt. A nutrient problem looks like a cell collapse with discoloration. The part may wither and die, but it should not look burnt. That is major difference between a chemical burn and a nutrient problem. In time you should be able to tell the difference for yourself.
Also check your pH. If your pH is not right, then solve the pH problem before you go and do anything else.277


A) Look at your problem and quickly search for any bugs. When you have completed this search, eliminate any bug problems by using the advice in the bug chapter. Also note the type of attack to make sure that it is not a bug problem AND is a nutrient problem, which can happen. Do your leaves look sucked and dry? Do you have any black dots on them like bugs? Try to tell the difference between a bug attack and a nutrient problem. Nutrient problems damage the plant on a somewhat consistent level. Bug attacks are less consistent in the damaged generated. They leave damaged patches everywhere on your plant.
If the problem seems to affects only the lower portion of your plant and or a bit of the middle then read B). If it is only effects the top of your plant and the tips then you should go to J). If the plant is covered with the problem then go to F).


B) If your plant is in vegetative growth and the leaves are going very yellow, then you need more Nitrogen. If your plant is in flowering and you have stunted growth, yellow leaves and it looks to be dying then you need more Nitrogen. If your plant is in flowering and does not look like it is dying but looks red or dark green/yellow then you need to treat it with more P, which is Phosphorus. If these do not help then go to C.


C) If your plant has leaves that are curling up, twisting and are going yellow then check to see if your light is burning them or if the grow chamber has enough air circulation. If this is fine then you need to consider adding more Mg which is Magnesium to your plants. Epsom salts are good for this. Add 1/4 - 1/3 table spoon of Epsom salts to 3 gallons of water is fine. If you still have a problem go to D).


D) If the tips of the leaves turn brown and curl slightly then you are looking at a K problem which is a Potassium problem. If not, move onto E.
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E) Does your plant look wilted? Maybe you over-watered? If not, go to F.


F) The veins are green, but the leaves are yellow. This is an Iron problem, Fe. If not, move on to G:)


G) Leaves are not twisted but are yellow at the base. The tips are fine. This is a Manganese problem, which is (Mn). If not, move on to H).


H) Still haven't solved it? Then flush your soil and find another type of plant food that has all of these. N, P, K, Ca, Mg and S. Get Epsom Salts and get a small canister of micronutrient. Iron, boron, chlorine, manganese, copper, zinc, and molybdenum. Try using a nutrient mixture that we have already mentioned before in the indoor feeding section. If this doesn't solve your problem, then maybe you have one of the following:


POT BOUND (ROOT BOUND)
Your plant has outgrown the pot. The entire root mass would have grown to its maximum capacity. This causes stress and a variety of problems. The only cure for this is a bigger pot.


NUTRIENT LOCKOUT
Well...what can we say causes this..Hmm there are a number of things. If you followed H) right then you should not have this but we will explain it anyway. Lockout occurs when the plant can not get access to a nutrient or a group of nutrients. This could be caused by the absence of nutrients (a deficiency) or by a chemical reaction in the medium/solution that causes a toxic substance to block the roots, or causes a chemical reaction that creates another substance that changes the chemical properties of the other nutrients. As you can see this is really a very open subject matter. pH problems can lockout nutrients,
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your soil type can lockout nutrients, your water can even lockout nutrients. But these lockout causes are rare and more than likely something other than what cannabis needs has been added to the solution causing this reaction. When in doubt, transplant into fresh soil or a fresh hydroponics solution.


BAD GENETICS
Yep, there is a lot of garbage out in the market. Crap genetics do exist and people still buy them. The genetics may have mutations, warping, flowering problems, a weakness in them or poor germination rates that will sometimes cause nutrient symptoms to appear even though your nutrient problem does not exist. The only solution is to get some new genetics."
 
S

shamaneurope

27
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some more info

i had also found out some visuals about the problem definitions..

if it is not ethical for the thcfarmer to post these, you can tell me and i can remove the images...

just wanna find out the right cure, donot wanna loose my kids...

thanks once again for your patience guys..

means a lot...

hope that i will help some other guy one day, too... :damnhippie:

SK
 
Nitrogen
Magnesium
19753Phosphorus
ToxicSaltsBuildup
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shamaneurope

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it was using 24 hour light since this week... it may be due to the new dark cycle... it began photosynthesis and may be it needs more Phosphorus than before... just guessing...

also the intake fan was not working for a couple of days, and that also caused a lockdown, i guess again..

so i will soil flush and then install some Mg and then with the first watering some Phosphorus solution..

is that right?
 
lazarus718

lazarus718

626
28
I haven't read the Green's Bible bro, but I have seen these issues in many different plants through my gardening experience. Here's my input on the iron deficiency if you think that is what it is:

"The tissue between the veins becomes pale or white, kind of mimics the magnesium deficiency, but not yellow, iron has the white where the yellow would be on the magnesium deficiency. The deficiency starts with the lower and middle leaves, while the new leaves become completely lacking in chlorophyll, but with little or no necrotic spots."


To me, you can take this advice if you like or you can leave it alone, your issue seems to be mostly concentrated with the older fans at the base of your plants and it is a coupled mag/phosphorus deficiency. I would also worry about root aphids, I know your book says not to worry about bugs if the issues are not sporadic, but root aphids eat your roots. When your roots are being eaten they are not transporting nutrients and you will experience a variety of deficiencies because your plants don't have food. Attempt to identify your bugs, and like your book does say, get rid of them first.

This is the description you will be looking for in order to diagnose a proper magnesium deficiency:


"Magnesium is one of the easiest deficiencies to tell… the green veins along with the yellowness of the entire surrounding leave is a dead giveaway, but sometimes that’s not always the case here. In case you have one of those where it doesn’t show the green veins, sometimes leaf tips and edges may discolor and curl upward. The growing tips can turn lime green when the deficiency progresses to the top of the plant. The edges will feel like dry and crispy and usually affects the lower leaves in younger plants, then will affect the middle to upper half when it gets older, but It can also happen on older leaves as well. The deficiency will start at the tip then will take over the entire outer left and right sides of the leaves. The inner part will be yellow and or brownish in color, followed by leaves falling without withering. The tips can also twist and turn as well as curving upwards as if you curl your tongues."

Flush, get rid of the bugs, then treat.
 
S

shamaneurope

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ok just woke up and now doing what you have written...

will keep you updated...

probably with new photos a couple of hours later = )
 
S

shamaneurope

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Ok now i show you the last pictures that i took

plant 1

 DSC0020 2


 DSC0019 2


 DSC0021 2


 DSC0017 2


As you can see these are the older leaves one of the plant. It's just start with this leaves and i hope yellowing stop with your suggestions. The stem of the leave are a little bit purple too..
 
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shamaneurope

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And the plant 2

View attachment 132472

This is one of the leave of the plant 2 and i thinh its mag def. Or any other idea?
 DSC0023 2


 DSC0012 2



Also the bottom leaves i mean the older ones are getting yellow so fast. And i still can not decided what def is that??

Thanks for your opinion already guys.
 
Snowblind

Snowblind

Kush Mints x Animal Cookie Bx2 Specialist
Supporter
1,074
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You have a lock out now big time, massive uptake issues for many elements, not just magnesium....im not a soil guy I grow only hydro, but you need to flush, flush flush your roots!
 
S

shamaneurope

27
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So what is the final decision guys please give me a straight treatment...


FLUSH must the last step says most of the bibles...


Should I flush right away or will it drown them?


Should I first do the Mg treatment??


Or what? My mind's really messed up... please tell me simply

"Do this! or that!"

thanks...
 
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