yellowing bottom leaves.. need a doc please help!

[OnlyKush]

Overfeeding, salt build up!

 

[Seamaiden]

Yeah, I'm sure it is messed up, you're getting quite a bit of conflicting advice. Ask those who've given advice that conflicts to support their assertions. For instance, I see nothing, not a thing, that indicates your girls are over-fed. They are not an overly-dark green, the leaf tips are not burned, the leaves are not curling downward--these are all indicators of an over-fert situation that I don't see. Neither does it read as a lock-out situation, and given the pH range you reported, as long as that Bio"stuff" is actually soil or has sufficient material in it to qualify as soil, the pH isn't out of range. If it's NOT truly soil, if it is instead a soilless mix, then the pH needs to be dropped just a bit closer to 6.0.

As for what to do, I've told you what *I* would do based on what *I* see. I won't say unequivocally that I'm right, only how I would handle things. This is based on a good bit of reading supplemented with trying to screw up as many grows as I can in the shortest time frame possible. You also need to do a lot of reading, for instance, you don't understand how mobile elements/nutrients work in the plant, and that is evidenced by your lack of understanding that when LOWER leaves show deficiencies that's an indicator of what's happening and where, maybe even why. In your instance, your plants are using mobile nitrogen to grow new tips (which look very good, also based on the NPK numbers you give for your fertilizer, which are right in line with good organic growing numbers, make it very difficult for you to overfeed).

New growth versus old growth--what's happening?
New growth looks great, old growth looks old--what does that mean?
It means that mobile nutrients are being mobilized to feed the new growth from the old growth, which spurs yellowing. If other elements (phosphorous P/potassium K) are not present in sufficient amounts then other problems may develop. Why? Because, they all "need" each other to work well and for the plant to grow.

I forgot to ask you if you pick up the pots before you feed/water. In other words, are you making sure that they're sufficiently dried out before feeding and watering again? I've not seen that cause the problems I see on your plants, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You can foliar feed at ANY time, it's a way of getting certain nutrients into the plant without using the roots. So, do the Mg treatment any time you like.

 

[Illmind]

what have u been feeding and did you change anything 2 to 3 weeks ago when this started? be precise makes it easier to diagnose. like, medium, indica %, nute regimen, temps, and watts with distance. so far i'd say u have lockout and would water a little with reg water and test runoff. if its overfeed pure water will help, overwatering/overfeeding may cause medium probs i use hygrozyme so id clear em with that. serious nitrogen withdrawal s in veg will make plant droopy and i don't c that. so i'd say water and hygrozyme or sensizyme or i've heard some even use h2o2 i think im high as hell lemme get back t u, just read your post seamaiden im thinking salt buildup since he's using organic and hows drainage?

 

[OnlyKush]

Don't have to be too dark green to be overfed. Overfertilization with various supplements causes lockout and can make a plant look like it it has a whole bunch of deficiences when it really just needs to be flushed well.

 

[Seamaiden]

Yes, indeed, but I'd like to know what you're observing that leads you to say this, instead of just repeating that it's an overfeed situation. I've outlined other indicators of overfeeding that I'm not observing in these plants, so I would very much like to know what it is you're seeing. I'd also like to know what you're basing the lock-out observation on, as much for my own education as the OP's.

Not saying you're wrong, just saying that I'm not seeing it and would like to learn.

 

[OnlyKush]

Take a look at the pics dude, last pic especially, but the plant is starting to fry. I see a lot of burned tips. Especially the last pics, those bottom leaves are burned and tips are fried.

 

[Illmind]

could be a ph issue, it's very challenging to diagnose via internet.

 

[Seamaiden]

Illmind, that's why I said what I did about shaman's media. Since I don't know anything about it I have no idea if pH is in range or not. But, the NPK numbers he's putting up for the feed look to be the kind of numbers we get when using all-organic nutes (generally, nothing over 10).

Take a look at the pics dude, last pic especially, but the plant is starting to fry. I see a lot of burned tips. Especially the last pics, those bottom leaves are burned and tips are fried.

But, dude, the rest of the leaves (the majority of the plant) are exactly to the point of "burn" as I take my own plants, and it's only the lower leaves that are "fried", nowhere else on the plant is it showing these other signs of overfeeding.

You're absolutely right about toxicities mimicking deficiencies, but usually there are other signs that go along with leaf tip burn and lower leaves yellowing and getting crispy that would indicate this situation.

Hehheh, shaman, I hope you enjoy the rest of the ride!

 

[lil miss lone]

So what is the final decision guys please give me a straight treatment...


FLUSH must the last step says most of the bibles...


Should I flush right away or will it drown them?


Should I first do the Mg treatment??


Or what? My mind's really messed up... please tell me simply

"Do this! or that!"

thanks...

You have root aphids bro. That's my final answer. By trying to correct phantom deficiencies you'll only nute burn already stressed out plants. The problem as another fellow mentioned, is that the aphids are sucking all of the nutrients out of the roots. When an infestation is very bad root aphids will sprout wings and spread out to other plants. Read up on that bro, I've seen this before in my own grow.

 

[smokestack23]

Wow...after the first or second post where he says he has bugs only TWO people say root aphids??

I suppose it COULD be a REALLY bad fungus gnat infestation but no...we all (3?) say root aphids.

You can leach, feed, ammend, blow...all you want. The roots are being eaten and the plants can't get anything from them.

That's my vote at least and I'm VERY surprised that I'm only the third person to say it's bugs.

 

[Seamaiden]

I'm not ready to call it fungus gnats or root aphids until I see something that indicates it more clearly. You and lil miss have to know that I've got these God damned bugs in my eyes, too, for all I've lost at the very least.

His plants are, to my eyes, showing classic signs of trying to grow well but eating up what was stored in tissues and not being able to replace it. This could be because of pH being out of whack for the medium being used. I've seen this time after time in OD potted soil situations where the plants grow too rapidly for the available (root) space and food.

 

[lil miss lone]

Smokestack, I'm really surprised myself. You have to have had the aphid problem to recognize it for what it is. The leaf damage alone is enough for me, but the flying bugs are to me, the smoking gun. I'm also surprised that people spout off the same old things, like lack of this or that nute (cal mag is what is advised most often) or pH are suggested. Its amazing to me that a farmer with the same problems still turns a blind eye, and points the original poster in the wrong direction. I wish in the beginning stages of ra infestation someone with experience had told me straight up, Oh wait, someone did. A fellow named Drawoh opened my eyes to it.

But anyhow, good luck with your grow buddy, and do please keep us posted, as now I'm just curious to see what happens.

Edit: here is a very thorough thread I did when I had the aphids. Lots of pics. Have a look through, if you'd like. I recommend it.

 

[lazarus718]

To the OP, for me it's this simple...you don't want flying bugs in your grow unless they are lady bugs, especially indoors man. I don't know why you are hesitating to do something about them. In my last post I told you to get hot on that and then to flush. How much more advice do you need from everyone before you take action? The general consensus seems to be that you have fed too much and that you should discontinue feeding until you figure out what the problems is. Looks like a couple of posters on your thread have had problems with root aphids....don't you think it would be wise to PM them and find out how they identified that problem and what they did to remedy it? Better yet, catch one of the bugs and break it's wings so that you can take a photo of it for us and then you will have an answer about that one. They could be freaking mosquitoes for all we know without seeing them ourselves.

 

[smokestack23]

Seamaden..I've read some of your threads (unless I'm confusing you for someone else) and if ANYONE should know about RAs..it's YOU.

SO...if you say you aren't convinced that it's bugs...I believe you.

I'm not "convinced" either but I sure am leaning that way. In any event..as was said...GET RID OF THE BUGS!!!
which...will be much easier (possible) once you properly identify them.

Do some Root Aphid research. You'll see the symptoms as well as descriptions of the critters. Then all you have to do is catch one, identify it and then start the war.

Whether or not they are what's causing your issues, they ARE causing problems...or will..actually..if you're seeing flyers..they already are. Either way...your plants are sick (think of a flu) AND they have bugs. You want to lay off the solids and give em plenty of fluids (no or very little nutes..complete spectrum) while you eradicate the infestation. Your plants should turn around. You might not ever really know if it was the bugs or a toxicity/deficiency but you'll fix the problem...and some of us will have known all along that it was the root aphids ;).

Good luck and KILL THOSE BUGS!!!!!!!!! period!

 

[amstercal]

I think your roots are mad. I can't say why yet. I think all too often we hope for a simple solution like adding some fert so we assume it's a deficiency. If you're using a decent nute formula, this occurring in a perfect room is gonna happen less than I think we'd all look for.

The leaves are growing a lot close to the main stalk. They do that often whenever they are mad, root bound, root rot, whatever. Then they're showing all kind of different "deficiencies." Unless your pH is locking everything out, why would they show multiple problems unless they're just damaged? Did you try foliar feeding? Did it help? Often plants with bad roots improve for a few days after a foliar feeding then head south again, if they're not foliared again immediately.

So what could be causing the damage?
1 Black bugs are bad. Find out what they are and get rid of them. If they are fungus gnats, apparently their larvae love roots. I have no experience with them, but lots of info on the farm. Also, root aphids are a good candidate, but honestly, it doesn't look like the damage I saw. However, every plant can be unique.
2 You said you had a heat problem? That maybe was contributer if it caused your res or your pots to get hot. Then the roots may have gotten rot.
3 There seems to be some concern over the pH. Much too high or low pH, even once, can burn the roots.

This is becoming my standard advice, but is it bad enough to justify pulling a plant's roots apart to look at them? If you can just transplant one and find the problem, great. If you do and it doesn't help, sometimes sacrificing one to look at the roots and figure out the problem will stop the whole room from going down the drain.

No offense to anyone in the overfeeding camp, but I don't think that's it. The tip burn I've seen from overfeeding looks different in my experience.

Definitely do some reading and look at pics of root rot, root bound and any bugs that go after roots before you check out your roots. Good luck.

 

[shamaneurope]

of

i did not flush yet...

i guess i have to choose one and start... really your answers made caused a LOCKDOWN in my brain... drained all my hopes...

i guess i have to choose the most experienced one and go his/her way...

now i am going to take some photos of the flies (i think they are just mosquitos by the way)

these are the latest photos...

my soil is a mix and the ph is around 6.5 maybe i should lower it to 6 as someone had mentioned...

and now i will also spray some N based mix on them, because it is the dark hours..

and i am coming back in a few hours with more photos and questions i guess...

 

[shamaneurope]

thanks seamaiden.. this is a perfect reply...

i always pick them up before i water them...

so you say that they are growing up, so the down leaves simply fade away...

does this mean that i can start flowering them and may be the balance will be equalized?? or simply add the other nutrients?

and about the ph.. it is a mixed soil so maybe i should lower it down to 6.

Yeah, I'm sure it is messed up, you're getting quite a bit of conflicting advice. Ask those who've given advice that conflicts to support their assertions. For instance, I see nothing, not a thing, that indicates your girls are over-fed. They are not an overly-dark green, the leaf tips are not burned, the leaves are not curling downward--these are all indicators of an over-fert situation that I don't see. Neither does it read as a lock-out situation, and given the pH range you reported, as long as that Bio"stuff" is actually soil or has sufficient material in it to qualify as soil, the pH isn't out of range. If it's NOT truly soil, if it is instead a soilless mix, then the pH needs to be dropped just a bit closer to 6.0.

As for what to do, I've told you what *I* would do based on what *I* see. I won't say unequivocally that I'm right, only how I would handle things. This is based on a good bit of reading supplemented with trying to screw up as many grows as I can in the shortest time frame possible. You also need to do a lot of reading, for instance, you don't understand how mobile elements/nutrients work in the plant, and that is evidenced by your lack of understanding that when LOWER leaves show deficiencies that's an indicator of what's happening and where, maybe even why. In your instance, your plants are using mobile nitrogen to grow new tips (which look very good, also based on the NPK numbers you give for your fertilizer, which are right in line with good organic growing numbers, make it very difficult for you to overfeed).

New growth versus old growth--what's happening?
New growth looks great, old growth looks old--what does that mean?
It means that mobile nutrients are being mobilized to feed the new growth from the old growth, which spurs yellowing. If other elements (phosphorous P/potassium K) are not present in sufficient amounts then other problems may develop. Why? Because, they all "need" each other to work well and for the plant to grow.

I forgot to ask you if you pick up the pots before you feed/water. In other words, are you making sure that they're sufficiently dried out before feeding and watering again? I've not seen that cause the problems I see on your plants, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.

You can foliar feed at ANY time, it's a way of getting certain nutrients into the plant without using the roots. So, do the Mg treatment any time you like.

 

[shamaneurope]

for the flies i have a sticky roll hanging there which catches many a day...

here's the picture of that as well..

To the OP, for me it's this simple...you don't want flying bugs in your grow unless they are lady bugs, especially indoors man. I don't know why you are hesitating to do something about them. In my last post I told you to get hot on that and then to flush. How much more advice do you need from everyone before you take action? The general consensus seems to be that you have fed too much and that you should discontinue feeding until you figure out what the problems is. Looks like a couple of posters on your thread have had problems with root aphids....don't you think it would be wise to PM them and find out how they identified that problem and what they did to remedy it? Better yet, catch one of the bugs and break it's wings so that you can take a photo of it for us and then you will have an answer about that one. They could be freaking mosquitoes for all we know without seeing them ourselves.

 

[shamaneurope]

if it is needed i can also submit some micro shots later on..

should i use any other thing for the flies?? what should i use?

 

[Seamaiden]

Smokestack, et alia, I will not claim to be an expert on root aphids. But I'm also keeping in mind that this guy is in Europe, not mainland North America, and I am still not seeing the overall sickliness, random yellowing, necrotic yet still green leaf margins, along with all the weirdnesses, that RAs seem to cause. I'm seeing plants that want more food and room to grow, and they appear to be bushy Indicas. I can only say what I see.

thanks seamaiden.. this is a perfect reply...

i always pick them up before i water them...

so you say that they are growing up, so the down leaves simply fade away...

does this mean that i can start flowering them and may be the balance will be equalized?? or simply add the other nutrients?

and about the ph.. it is a mixed soil so maybe i should lower it down to 6.

The lower (down) leaves do "fade away" when the plant cannot derive food from elsewhere. I'm thinking we may have a language barrier, but I only speak a little Spanish and nothing else. Think of it as though it's eating itself, because in a very real sense that is what is happening.

In any event, if you begin flowering right now you will be able to keep them smaller, which is good I would assume when growing in a small tent (looks like yours are in a tent), but that won't mean they won't need nitrogen and other food, it will just mean that their nutritional needs will change to more phosphorous/potassium dominance over nitrogen.

Before you adjust soil pH make absolutely certain what it is, exactly. If it's what can be called soil--humus, composted material, and sands (dirt) then leave pH in the higher ranges--6.5-6.8. ONLY change the pH of the medium if you learn that it's a soilless mix, such as something that's made with coco coir, peat (sphagnum) moss, bark chips or fines, that sort of thing.

Definitely get clear macros of the bugs, that will be helpful to all. Peoples' opinions on what to do about bugs in growing areas are varied. Most take a nuclear approach--kill everything! But I'm a fishthing and we don't live well by ourselves, we need other organisms, so my approach is to only kill it IF I see it's causing a problem. That can bite one in the arse, so be aware of that when you make your decision.

Mostly, right now, treat it like a plant, because that's what it is. If you've grown any other houseplants, or even better, flowering or fruiting plants, then when you begin to look at cannabis with those eyes you may find all the information a little easier to understand.

It's important also that you understand that the reason why there are different opinions is because growing is as much an art as a science. To me, it doesn't matter who's right, just as long as the problem is solved. If you find that you have bugs that are causing damage, then you surely must treat that problem with whatever is appropriate and legal (and can be found) in your country.