Converting to grow trees, need tips

[kushtrees]

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-OO
OXO
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OXO
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OXO
-OO

 

[kushtrees]

One thing to be careful with is that you will need a strain that grows very tall and not as wide. Stacked 1000s cover about a 6-8 ft vertical height. A 6-8ft tree will be very wide and having less that 3-4kw on a tree that big either means tons of trimming or tons larf

I would consider not stacking the 1kws with that set up. Or if you do stack lights, stack plants too, but that means building a shelf of some sort.

Edit: for a set up like that I would consider the wall o dank design

 

[Capulator]

If you run 1000's I suggest leaving 2' between the bulb and the finished flowers. This is going to take experimenting on your part, but at a minimum I would consider having the bulb 36" from the center of the plant container. You can grow a huge plant in a plastic tote like this: http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail...&gadtype=pla&gclid=CP_j3qrl_LUCFetFMgodCQgASw

Just drill a hole in the bottom and put a 3/4" ebb flow fitting for a drain. Fill the bottom 2" with chunky perlite or hydroton. Fill the rest with 50/50 peat perlite, 50/50 coco hydroton, 50/50 coco perlite... I have seen minimal differences between all of these. Or soil. Whatever really. You can get a 7' tall plant no problem. I do not think you need to double stack (unless you did double stacks 600's which would probably be better for light distribution and heat.

I'll throw a pic up later if I can of the wall o dank almost done. the room is all cleared out so I can get a good shot of it. If you could put the whole column/wall on caster with an attached trellis on the front side (altered nation mentioned this earlier), you could move the wall to adjust for the light. I like my wall fixed because I hang a lot of yo yos from the ceiling around week 6. Can imagine moving anything at that point.

 

[Capulator]

One thing to be careful with is that you will need a strain that grows very tall and not as wide. Stacked 1000s cover about a 6-8 ft vertical height. A 6-8ft tree will be very wide and having less that 3-4kw on a tree that big either means tons of trimming or tons larf

I would consider not stacking the 1kws with that set up. Or if you do stack lights, stack plants too, but that means building a shelf of some sort.

Edit: for a set up like that I would consider the wall o dank design

yeah with the wall o dank you just want plants that stretch. the width part is easy. You just tie branches back to the cage and clean out the back. basically you "fan" the plant out as it grows. When you see my FPOG this round you will trip out. It is a naturally big plant.

What you dont want is a plant that doesnt stretch. they will not be good because they will be wide and bushy. It will be tough to get penetration without sacrificing yield.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Like this?

-OO
OXO
-OO
OXO
-OO
OXO
-OO

More like this
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O O
O x O
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O O O

yeah with the wall o dank you just want plants that stretch. the width part is easy. You just tie branches back to the cage and clean out the back. basically you "fan" the plant out as it grows. When you see my FPOG this round you will trip out. It is a naturally big plant.

What you dont want is a plant that doesnt stretch. they will not be good because they will be wide and bushy. It will be tough to get penetration without sacrificing yield.

So your typical indica dom. GDP and Blackberry Kush will not be suitable? That blows...

The main reason I want to stack bulbs is because I do not want to run less then 6000w, the room is 12' x 12' and the ceilings are tampered (high end is 11', low end is 8'). I have 2.5 tons of A/C so cooling is no issue.

GL

 

[LexLuthor]

Greenleaf, do you want to grow up a wall, or stack beds of soil and use smaller plants?? If you stack the soil beds, then an indica dom strain will work great, but if you wanna grow up a wall then you need something that stretches like Cap said.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Greenleaf, do you want to grow up a wall, or stack beds of soil and use smaller plants?? If you stack the soil beds, then an indica dom strain will work great, but if you wanna grow up a wall then you need something that stretches like Cap said.

I usually do high plant counts but am limited on clones this time. I have roughly 20-30 plants that are vegging. I want to through them in 15-20 gallon smart pots and line them up in two rows. one row could obviously be backed against the wall to make a wall of dank. I have green fencing that is perfect to trellis with and I can run it across the front of the plants, easy to get hands through as well.

My issue is I currently have 6000w in there and certainly do not want to downgrade. My diagram got f'ed up again. here:

Where each X is 2 bulbs, stacked. Real simple...

 

[Dynamite]

still in the same 8x8 space under 4kW of hps in Magnum ochos

Are you restricted to an 8X8 room ? in that tight of an area with 4k your best bet will be to keep your hoods and not run vert bulbs

To achieve the better yields with vert bulbs you need more square footage then a room with overhead lighting

I have 6k in a 13 X 9 , and there is NO WAY to get better yields from vert lighting vs overhead lighting with that math

vert lighting vs overhead lighting ~ comes down to square footage

when square footage is not what needs to be maximized then vert lighting is optimal , but in smaller spaces the math just doesn't add up (far as yield vs area)

 

[fishwhistle]

I am following along here tryin to grasp the tree concept and i can see the advantage plant count wise for sure but i have a question,it seems like it takes alot of watts(amps=$)to do it right,is the yield worth it vs. other grow methods?Can a grower who only has like 30 amps(4-5k)available for lighting pull it off on a smaller scale?
I love trees,im really an outdoor guy at heart but its just not an option anymore in my county,things have grown around me and the popo here have a bigger airforce than some small countries.

 

[kushtrees]

I see what your thinking. That screams wall of dank, but you need a very stretchy strain or you need to stack plants to benefit from the stacked 1000ws. Stacked 600ws would work, but stacked 1000ws would be over kill. Im going to guess that room will get very over crowded unless you have a strain that doubles or triples in hieght.

you should consider a combination of overhead and vert if you do not want to go below 6kw, I think JPLord does stadium like this.

2kw over each row of plants and 2kw vertically in the middle. 20-30 plants with 6kw would be great as a stadium IMO.

 

[LexLuthor]

Well, if you have 20-30 plants then I think it would be fine, doesn't really matter if they stretch alot because you got enough plants to fill the space. I'm not sure, but I think Cap was talking about using stretchy strains if your gonna grow them like he does, along a tall wall and I think he uses less plants per light then you would, plus he doesn't stack is plants.

Definitely stay with 6k, if your gonna stack the plants, then I think you should stack the lights too, but if you keep all the plants in a single row then you could do the same with the lights. Whatever configuration works best for your size and shape room then go with it. I think it would work great.

 

[kushtrees]

I am following along here tryin to grasp the tree concept and i can see the advantage plant count wise for sure but i have a question,it seems like it takes alot of watts(amps=$)to do it right,is the yield worth it vs. other grow methods?Can a grower who only has like 30 amps(4-5k)available for lighting pull it off on a smaller scale?
I love trees,im really an outdoor guy at heart but its just not an option anymore in my county,things have grown around me and the popo here have a bigger airforce than some small countries.

I think the merit behind trees is mostly plant count. It's not terribly light efficient when compared to a well done scrog or vert scrog. Caps wall of dank is a nice mix between full blown trees and vert scroging which makes it an excellent method IMO. A real big tree (like 4-6ft high and 3-5 ft wide or bigger) takes a lot of light to really be worth the size. You are only going to be able to yield so much from 1 light. My first tree grow, which was an overgrown disaster, had plants 6ft tall 4-5 ft wide and I got less than 2 potatoes a plant and a TON of flarf, now my trees are 4-5ft tall, 3-4ft wide and yield 2 or more.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

I think the merit behind trees is mostly plant count. It's not terribly light efficient when compared to a well done scrog or vert scrog. Caps wall of dank is a nice mix between full blown trees and vert scroging which makes it an excellent method IMO. A real big tree (like 4-6ft high and 3-5 ft wide or bigger) takes a lot of light to really be worth the size. You are only going to be able to yield so much from 1 light. My first tree grow, which was an overgrown disaster, had plants 6ft tall 4-5 ft wide and I got less than 2 potatoes a plant and a TON of flarf, now my trees are 4-5ft tall, 3-4ft wide and yield 2 or more.

Larf because of your thinning methods or there growth compared to the position of your light?

 

[kushtrees]

Both. I could have thinned a lot more hands down, but also the tree had a 6ft canopy and a 1000w really only has a 4x4 spread. So the bottom 2 feet of the canopy was just small nugs. If I had cut off the bottom 2 ft and had a 4 ft canopy it probably would have been a lot better because all that energy would have gone toward the top nugs. This is what I do now, make sure the canopy is only the size of the spread of the light.

I was thinking about your set up gr33n, and this may work...

OXO
OXO
OXO

6 plants, with the double stacked thousands. This way your plants can grow 6ft tall, and once they are tall enough they should be 4ft wide as well. Then you have a 6 ft tall, 12 ft (3 plants x 4ft canopy per plant) wide canopy. Witht the 12 plant design above, the plants would have to be 6ft tall and 2 ft wide (you have a 12 x 12 room right?)

Iuno a lot if strains that will grow 6ft and not get wider than 2 ft.

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Both. I could have thinned a lot more hands down, but also the tree had a 6ft canopy and a 1000w really only has a 4x4 spread. So the bottom 2 feet of the canopy was just small nugs. If I had cut off the bottom 2 ft and had a 4 ft canopy it probably would have been a lot better because all that energy would have gone toward the top nugs. This is what I do now, make sure the canopy is only the size of the spread of the light.

I was thinking about your set up gr33n, and this may work...

OXO
OXO
OXO

6 plants, with the double stacked thousands. This way your plants can grow 6ft tall, and once they are tall enough they should be 4ft wide as well. Then you have a 6 ft tall, 12 ft (3 plants x 4ft canopy per plant) wide canopy. Witht the 12 plant design above, the plants would have to be 6ft tall and 2 ft wide (you have a 12 x 12 room right?)

Iuno a lot if strains that will grow 6ft and not get wider than 2 ft.

Fuck yah! I'm doing it! I already have 65 gallon smart pots, they're roughly 32" wide, I will surround them with fencing.

Pumped!

Thanks Kush

 

[LexLuthor]

Fuck yah! I'm doing it! I already have 65 gallon smart pots, they're roughly 32" wide, I will surround them with fencing.

Pumped!

Thanks Kush

Are you growing in soil?? Tree's grown in soil indoors, I gotta see this!!

 

[kushtrees]

Haha you're in for quite a long veg in soil, but that would be awesome. I've always wanted to do organic trees. Best of luck to you green, I hope u post some pics for us. I would love to see how it turns out for u

 

[GR33NL3AF]

Are you growing in soil?? Tree's grown in soil indoors, I gotta see this!!

Haha you're in for quite a long veg in soil, but that would be awesome. I've always wanted to do organic trees. Best of luck to you green, I hope u post some pics for us. I would love to see how it turns out for u

I am in Roots organics but I have 5-6 weeks of veg time before the room is clear. Ill prob run them for 24 for a good week in the flower room before flip. That's 7 weeks.

All I need is more of Caps goodies...

 

[fishwhistle]

Great thread,lots of info!

 

[Capulator]

Are you restricted to an 8X8 room ? in that tight of an area with 4k your best bet will be to keep your hoods and not run vert bulbs

To achieve the better yields with vert bulbs you need more square footage then a room with overhead lighting...
I have 6k in a 13 X 9 , and there is NO WAY to get better yields from vert lighting vs overhead lighting with that math

vert lighting vs overhead lighting ~ comes down to square footage

when square footage is not what needs to be maximized then vert lighting is optimal , but in smaller spaces the math just doesn't add up (far as yield vs area)

You do need a min. square footage to make it worth it. However, see below example of a room size similar to yours with 6 plants and a little more light.Dynamite you need to think about square footage of canopy and not square footage of floor space. It's all about maximizing the canopy, and if you can use the 3 walls you get more square footage than using the floor alone. an 8 x8 is 64 sq. ft.


So lets say we have a hedge canopy that covers 3 walls in an 8 x 8 room, and we take in to consideration the space for the roots of 2' high and 2' wide, going around the whole room (a 2 ft x 2 x 20' bed of sopil, coco or whatever). lets also assume a 2' thick hedge all the way up. That gives us 16' x 6' of canopy space. that's 96 sq. ft. as opposed to 64 sq. ft. (an unrealistic number anyway since you need space to walk around the room right?). That's an extra 1/3 of canopy, that can be lit up by only 3 1k's and 3 600's down the center instead of 4 1ks up above.

I am following along here tryin to grasp the tree concept and i can see the advantage plant count wise for sure but i have a question,it seems like it takes alot of watts(amps=$)to do it right,is the yield worth it vs. other grow methods?Can a grower who only has like 30 amps(4-5k)available for lighting pull it off on a smaller scale?
I love trees,im really an outdoor guy at heart but its just not an option anymore in my county,things have grown around me and the popo here have a bigger airforce than some small countries.

plant counts mostly, but check this out:

Strain dependent example (in this case it was an LA con cross):

A farmer here a while back was running MPB's. He had 48" centers, and was pulling an average of just over 3 potatoes per plant.

Now that's pretty gnarly for 6 plants in a small space.

Here was what he had going:

11' x 12' Sealed Room
8k watt HPS hortilux bulbs on Galaxy dimmable ballasts
2- 600 watt hps Galaxy ballast (the double stacked lights in the pic shows 400 MH lights that was from a past run they are 600's now)
5 ton AC
8 - High velocity blower fans
Green air products Co2 Controller (SPC-1) and NG Co2 burner (Original part number was LP-36 but I converted the burner to run off of natural gas)
48" Centers plant to plant



SYSTEM SPECS:

1800 GPH Main Feed pump
633 GPH Top feed pump ran on a cycle timer
1/3 HP JBJ Chiller
1100 GPH chiller pump
75 Gal main res with a 100 gal over flow that feeds the main res throughout the week via float valve (same nutrients in over flow as in main res)
9 inch Airstones
AP-100 Airpump


In my very very humble opinion, 18-20 potatoes from a 11' x 13' is fuckin' awesome, and I guarantee the extra power used to produce this was justified in the end.