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What kind of support are you using for your UC?


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B

bobby34

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WHAT CHEMICAL CONSTITUENTS CONTROL pH?

a) In Scheme Waters and Bore Waters

Because of its solubility in water, the presence of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere has a major influence on the chemistry and pH of water.
The pH of natural, i.e. uncontaminated, waters with pH values between 4.5 - 8.2 is controlled by the concentrations of bicarbonate anion, HCO3- (sometimes referred to as combined CO2) and free carbon dioxide - where the presence of free carbon dioxide in water lowers pH and bicarbonate elevates pH. It is the amount of bicarbonate (i.e. its alkalinity) in a natural water that determines its buffering capacity. Buffering capacity is the amount of resistance the pH of a water shows to additions of acid or alkali.
The presence of free, i.e. uncombined, carbon dioxide tends to lower the pH because it reacts with water to form carbonic acid thus:
CO2 + H2O = H2CO3
Contrarily, the presence of bicarbonate anion elevates pH because it mops up hydrogen ion thus:
H+ + HCO3 - = H2CO3
The overall reaction is represented by:
CO2 + H2O = H2CO3 = H+ + HCO3-
Thus at high CO2 concentrations the reaction is pushed to the right with the production of more H+ (i.e. pH is lowered). High bicarbonate levels (compared to CO2) mop up H+ with the result the reaction shifts to the left and a higher pH value is produced.

However, a complicating factor is that free carbon dioxide concentrations above about 0.5 mg/L in water are unstable when such waters are exposed to the atmosphere at sea level pressures. Under that condition carbon dioxide in excess of 0.5 mg/L will slowly escape from the water into the atmosphere. This is particularly the case with groundwater's which typically have carbon dioxide contents around 50 - 200 mg/L - as a result of biological activity within the aquifer. When these waters are pumped to the surface, the observed pH rises because the excess (acidic) carbon dioxide escapes. The pH will then rise to a stable value solely dependent on the water's bicarbonate content. For example, a bore water with 100 mg/L bicarbonate and 100 mg/L of free carbon dioxide will have an initial pH of 6.3 gradually rising to 8.2 after it has been exposed to the atmosphere and after which the carbon dioxide content has dropped to around 0.5 mg/L.
The same phenomenon although to a much lesser extent (because of their much lower CO2 contents), occurs with scheme (tap) water. Thus the conclusion - because the pH of natural waters are only stable after aeration, it is only the "after aeration" pH value which is stable and has any interpretative significance. To determine that value, aerate the water by tumbling a sample of it from one container to another, 30-40 times prior to measuring its pH.
In conclusion: interpret pH values with caution because a natural water with a lower pH than another may produce the higher pH after both are aerated!!


Basically i got from this, the PH down in your nutes react with the CO2 causing the ph to rise significantly.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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The above is great when applied to artesian water, also known as naturally sparkling water- but nobody I know of is complaining about their water fizzing after the airstones are shut off...

Edit; that sounded snotty, and I didn't mean it that way, sorry- my point is one of magnitude of influence; we're talking about small concentrations of CO² in the air. It's my educated hunch that write well below the threshold of meaningful influence, in the absence of other factors.
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

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Hi, if your starting water has an EC of less than .2, definitely add cal-mag. I run a full 5ml/gal from veg all the way up until flush.

I used the cutting edge trio, but I wasn't impressed with the value to cost. What kind of system are you running? Different systems have different nutrient strength needs. I use Jacks Professional dry nutrient, along with calcium nitrate as my base. I add the aforementioned cal-mag and 1ml/gal of Mineral Matrix, a micronutrient booster.

At a few intervals throughout bloom, I'll add a P booster. That's it. KISS. And cheap. Really cheap.

Most worrying is your pH swing. If you run an RDWC like an undercurrent, this is a potential indication of an outbreak of anaerobic conditions and potential pythium or root rot. Have a close look at your roots if you're able to check their health. White is good, Brown and stringy, not so much.

Another cause of pH rise is chemical. I see a large and persistent jump in pH when I use silica additives, for example.

Hope this helps.

Actually, 1 point of rise per day is exactly what you are looking for. ph rise is the natural outcome of elemental exchange in solution water. As plants remove acids (raise pH,) they exchange ions for the acids they uptake (raise pH), the exudes they exchange are hydroxal ions that also, rase the pH.

Also, there is absolutely no threshold for cal-mag based on any other calculation beyond the concentration in the rest of the nutrients that are being used. Avoid cal-nitrate altogether when ever possible.
 
Quantum9

Quantum9

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Ok so I just changed out the system crowned with tea. Only used CS A, B, and Booster with about 300 ml of Cal Mag and we will see how that goes.

CS veg contains very high levels of Ca. Just give me a call homie, I really don't have time to address all of the misinformation you guys are getting here.
 
Amber

Amber

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I cant get him to call me either buddy. I got the pumps outside, the bottoms cleaned up, and would like to hear from him too now.
 
K

kuz

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Actually, 1 point of rise per day is exactly what you are looking for. ph rise is the natural outcome of elemental exchange in solution water. As plants remove acids (raise pH,) they exchange ions for the acids they uptake (raise pH), the exudes they exchange are hydroxal ions that also, rase the pH.

Also, there is absolutely no threshold for cal-mag based on any other calculation beyond the concentration in the rest of the nutrients that are being used. Avoid cal-nitrate altogether when ever possible.
That is what i have noticed, slight increase up everything is good. Big swings down on the other hand, I start looking for problems.

What do you use for calcium if not calcium nitrate?
 
Amber

Amber

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That is what i have noticed, slight increase up everything is good. Big swings down on the other hand, I start looking for problems.

What do you use for calcium if not calcium nitrate?
CS veg
 
All4freedumb

All4freedumb

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Hey hey hey... I hope all is good on your side. I haven't ever had to go over 1.5ml a gal while using CS and RO. I have tried to not use any but I always have seen better looks with at least 1ml. I am thinking if we ran an even lower ec we could then get away with no Cal Mag at all. I notice over and over again Q9 states try lowering your ec even lower, to all of us like it's a broken record, haha. That's one reason I started top feeding RO instead of hot. I always start very low but tend to find myself even a bit higher than the charts say. At peak flower I sit about 100ppms (500 scale) higher than chart. I remember reading Q9 saying they were seeing great results running even lower ec than CS charts. I just can't figure out what I am missing in his program that allows them to run at such low ec AND no Cal Mag. If they are using A&B and UC Roots and nothing else I am really lost... Hahaha. Foliar feed? Crown feed? Nothin else? And NO boosters...damn... Maybe he has magic water, I mean have you seen the water systems they rock? Makes my whole setup look like a toy.... ;) Ohh and I only notice a gradual healthy uprise in ph along with my ec dropping and my air pumps and co2 always have been in the same room. Just wondering if there is another culprit...
 
Amber

Amber

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LOL magic water could be it. Maybe the hocus pocus starts when the ec gets low enough and we finally hear what hes saying. The ph has chilled out now and is swinging gradually. Here are some pics
DSC02764
DSC02765
DSC02777
DSC02779
 
sixstring

sixstring

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wow that looks great in there.some of the pics must be playin mind games a bit,looks like your bulbs are touching some plants lol.where are you guys now in flower,around week 2?
 
T

tipper619sd

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I try to run half of what cs nutes recommend and i usually never have to add cal mag on any of my runs. This run tho i have been using a hot top off and seeing way different things happening i might have to get my top off back down to very light nutes . I usually dont ever get over 500 ppms in peak flower ever but i wanted to try something new out .But we shall see ??
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

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I try to run half of what cs nutes recommend and i usually never have to add cal mag on any of my runs. This run tho i have been using a hot top off and seeing way different things happening i might have to get my top off back down to very light nutes . I usually dont ever get over 500 ppms in peak flower ever but i wanted to try something new out .But we shall see ??

I run my nutes at up to 1.7 EC- not sure where that is on the ppm scale. I do this because my plants show clear signs of nutrient deficiency if I run less! My humidity runs between 65 and 75%, mostly on the high side.

I definitely use cal-mag, again, the plants told me I had to; my tapwater runs at .05 EC.

If my girls are blowing up, looking and definitely smelling dank, how is it a problem?
 
sixstring

sixstring

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1.7 ec is about 850 ppm on the hanna (.5) scale. these guys running around 500ppm are @ 1.0 ec. unless they r using some goofy meter that reads higher like .64 or .70 I would think that high co2 and humidity would allow your plants to grow better in 1.7ec but it might not be necessary if they were getting better ratios of what they want and need.ime starting plants on calmag when they r young makes them require more during flower.if you never fed a lot of calmag during the seedling and veg stage most strains will go full cycle without needing very much mag,and almost no calcium.but water source plays a huge role in all of this.
 
All4freedumb

All4freedumb

874
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Things are looking GREAT in there. I love how green everything is, very pretty ladies. Do you do any trimming, whether below the skirts or fan leafs? If so how often do you defoliate and when do you clean up under the skirt? This run I have not removed any fan leafs, I just tuck when I can but I did trim down under, just not as much as I did in the past... Do you run boosters and Cal Mag in your top off or just a@b? I did notice a nicer look, when running a hot top off when I kept my mix that I made in the UC in the top off minus everything but the a&b. This kept my top off at a lower ec but I noticed much more uptake of water daily, a nice ec drop and a healthy ph rise more consistently. Like you I also ran my top off at a lower ph than my UC. Thanks for the update...
 
All4freedumb

All4freedumb

874
93
1.7 ec is about 850 ppm on the hanna (.5) scale. these guys running around 500ppm are @ 1.0 ec. unless they r using some goofy meter that reads higher like .64 or .70 I would think that high co2 and humidity would allow your plants to grow better in 1.7ec but it might not be necessary if they were getting better ratios of what they want and need.ime starting plants on calmag when they r young makes them require more during flower.if you never fed a lot of calmag during the seedling and veg stage most strains will go full cycle without needing very much mag,and almost no calcium.but water source plays a huge role in all of this.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing your insight on this and would seem to make since to me. One run I had a meter go bad on me, I had no idea cause it showed it calibrated correctly and didn't find out till 5th week of flower, everything in veg, other than a slower growth but it was a new strain so I didn't catch it, was fine. When I hit third week of flower I was getting nervous cause although things looked good things were not flowering along as expected and had seen in the past running the UC. Hitting the 5th week things showed signs of yellowing and hairs were changing color. I also started getting ph drop and odd swings with very little ec drop. I feared it was a water issue so replaced all filters and membranes in my RO system and flushed. The next day I brought a meter from another spot and found out I was running 4.2-5.2, a point off the entire grow. Anyways, it got me thinking that because I started them right out of root with low ph and once getting settled they grew, just not as they should of. I've been getting good results but not the great ones I could by a few tweaks here and there I'm sure... I'm still a believer that different water levels and temps at different times of the grow as well as different times of the day and night could play a big role in water culture. We could nail all environmental, strain, stew mix and still have what's under the bucket to figure out. Who knows soon we might find out pumping different levels of water in and out of the systems will play a big role in our game or different stew for night as for daytime or a progressing ec throughout the day... I know I had talked to DS in the past about water levels and the play they have in our UC. I would love to hear what has been found out on this from his team as well..
 
Alice D

Alice D

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63
CS veg contains very high levels of Ca. Just give me a call homie, I really don't have time to address all of the misinformation you guys are getting here.
Q9 I can't seem to find your # but would love to talk to you about a few different things. I've never had problems in the past but after reading this or that here on the farm I end up trying something different and it seems to bite me in the ass. I know your super busy if you could call me id appreciate it much. Just a couple things. Thank you buddy.
 
Amber

Amber

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263
wow that looks great in there.some of the pics must be playin mind games a bit,looks like your bulbs are touching some plants lol.where are you guys now in flower,around week 2?
LOL I took the pics with the lights on so the ones that you see are not on when we were messing with the light it was just easier to run a new light than than follow the cords through the wall. 22 days i think
 
Alice D

Alice D

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63
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Just a couple quick pics of some mini cages but doing it and doing it well. Triple OG,green tree buckets with six thousands adjust a wings. Two rooms identical
 
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