Trying to get the right information to cure my cousin's wife's cancer...HELP!!!

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squiggly

squiggly

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Hey, as low as the percentages are.. Nearly 90% has found relief and some have blood work going in the correct perameters... So l...

Like I said, it's unlikely to be harmful to use cannabis oil as a treatment alongside traditional medical treatments. However, it's not possible to rule out any of the following:

1. Unexpected drug interactions with medicines prescribed by physicians (including chemo)
2. Depression of immune system, or some other biochemical function which may have otherwise worked to cure the cancer (in conjunction with the current medical treatment she is receiving).
3. Negative health effects related to cannabis use making life harder for her.

As much as I would like to rules these out--as I'm sure many physicians, patients, and generally compassionate people would like to--it just can't be done. The studies haven't been performed. There is virtually no science out there which can be used to rule such possibilities out. The science which does is exist is EXTREMELY preliminary relative to normal medical treatments. That doesn't mean it's less effective or less impressive--it simply means that we know less about it.


As far palliative care, I think the jury has come back on this one pretty resoundingly. Yes, it can help a great deal--especially for chemo patients. If it's time to make someone comfortable, there is no good reason not to give them some cannabis oil if they want it and believe it will make them feel better.

Beyond that it's really hard to make a solid recommendation one way or the other. It really must come down to the person and what their best judgement tells them, because any scientist or physician worth their salt would just be taking shots in the dark if they tried to address the above 3 concerns (and frankly many more I'm probably leaving out). The data just do not exist to make such a thing feasible.

Anyone willing to tell you otherwise has one of the following:

1. No scientific or medical training.
2. Questionable ethics.
3. A strongly held opinion/belief for which they have little or no solid evidence.

The best thing you can get from anyone regarding all of this is an expert opinion. While it doesn't hold the weight of a well tested scientific explanation, expertise can afford some measure of comfort when dealing with harrowing decisions like this--and it's better than nothing, which is honestly about all we have right now.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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Squigs, it kinda doesn't make any sense that cannabis may depress the immune system when research says that it may actually help with problems such as autoimmune disorders, does it?

If nothing else, then adding lysine to her daily regimen would help boost immune system response. If she's had surgeries then a combination of lysine+arginine is clinically proven to speed wound granulation. I've seen it in action myself, it's pretty amazing, and I use lysine for cold sores instead of the liver-killer Valtrex, and, get this--it's just as effective, and it's a fraction of the cost.

I always wonder how many docs actually know about that, vs dietitians.
 
Natural

Natural

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Lo squiggly I know you're heart is in the right place and you have faith in the medical fields..I know I cannot fault you for that. And you are right..there are many multiples of types of cancer. One should be aware of the types and what treatments that could possibly be interfered with like blood transfusion..stem cell treatment, etc, but..it's more likely Cannabis wouldn't interfere with much of them. I do understand what you mean..smoked forms and impure production might lend to unwanted substances in raw cannabis..compared to an ingested raw and pure oil.
The reality of cancer treatment's for the vast majority of people are the big 3..surgery, chemo, and radiation. Which is akin to medieval practices...and always comes prescribed with a slew of opiate pain killers. Short of a Gearson type immunotherapy..there are very few alternative treatments that give persons a fighting chance. As for your top 3 infallable reasons not to pursue a use for Cannabis as treatment or part of a treatment, is at the very least misleading. But, I get your point, I'm sure you would feel much more at home..if whomever is entertaining a cannabis treatment, that it would make you feel better, if that treatment was a lab quality CBD oil in a clinical trial setting. Which isn't feasible in the US..maybe in Israel(?). Seems the lab trials have spurred interest with big pharma. Until then, we have few tools in the fight and the ones we do employ are completely and utterly destructive methods.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Squigs, it kinda doesn't make any sense that cannabis may depress the immune system when research says that it may actually help with problems such as autoimmune disorders, does it?

If nothing else, then adding lysine to her daily regimen would help boost immune system response. If she's had surgeries then a combination of lysine+arginine is clinically proven to speed wound granulation. I've seen it in action myself, it's pretty amazing, and I use lysine for cold sores instead of the liver-killer Valtrex, and, get this--it's just as effective, and it's a fraction of the cost.

I always wonder how many docs actually know about that, vs dietitians.

Actually sea, you've gotten a bit mixed up here.

An autoimmune disorder is a disorder which arises from an OVERactive immune system. IE, it's working on overdrive and the immune system is attacking parts of your body rather than pathogens and foreign substances. To treat a disorder like this, what is prescribed is a depression of the immune system. That's how you fight an autoimmune disease.


Lo squiggly I know you're heart is in the right place and you have faith in the medical fields..I know I cannot fault you for that. And you are right..there are many multiples of types of cancer. One should be aware of the types and what treatments that could possibly be interfered with like blood transfusion..stem cell treatment, etc, but..it's more likely Cannabis wouldn't interfere with much of them. I do understand what you mean..smoked forms and impure production might lend to unwanted substances in raw cannabis..compared to an ingested raw and pure oil.
The reality of cancer treatment's for the vast majority of people are the big 3..surgery, chemo, and radiation. Which is akin to medieval practices...and always comes prescribed with a slew of opiate pain killers. Short of a Gearson type immunotherapy..there are very few alternative treatments that give persons a fighting chance. As for your top 3 infallable reasons not to pursue a use for Cannabis as treatment or part of a treatment, is at the very least misleading. But, I get your point, I'm sure you would feel much more at home..if whomever is entertaining a cannabis treatment, that it would make you feel better, if that treatment was a lab quality CBD oil in a clinical trial setting. Which isn't feasible in the US..maybe in Israel(?). Seems the lab trials have spurred interest with big pharma. Until then, we have few tools in the fight and the ones we do employ are completely and utterly destructive methods.

I think you've missed my point here. You keep using words like likely, might, and you go on to say that questions about this type of treatment which NO physician, scientist, or person has answers to are misleading.

I'm sorry but that's just false. The questions exist, are resonable, and do not have even partially clear answers.

The point I'm making is that we DON'T KNOW. You can say this or that is likely all you want (and I addressed this by saying that these types of "guesses" aren't wholly uneducated--but they are also not 100% reliable) but the truth is you're just guessing. You don't know that. No one does.

I'm sorry but that's how science, and by proxy medicine, works. That's how we do it. We know stuff that we know, and we don't know stuff that we don't. No matter how much you love pot or believe in its healing power--you cannot change that with a guess.

Edit: Just to clarify--I agree that a lot of these possible negatives I propose are not likely to interfere with most treatments. That's my professional opinion. At the same time, to maintain professionality I must underline the fact that this is an OPINION only. It's not an answer, nor a statement rooted in fact. It's something I believe based on my experience and my knowledge.

Now, that may be good enough for some people--and that's their prerogative. However, such people SHOULD be informed of the nature of such advice (not factually based) before making a decision about whether or not to follow it.

That is my only contention. NOT that marijuana is bad for treating cancer.

I'm saying maybe it's good, it appears to be good--but we're not sure, and it's only fair we tell the patients that.
 
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DAT

DAT

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I have seen thousands of cancer patients through my 10 year career In Oncology. Only one patient that came into to see her prognosis had taken upon herself a completely natural path.. something called ... Three Feathers. ... to get rid of her breast cancer. She was extremely dedicated to the intense herbal diet and showed me the actual photographs of her Breast Cancer Tumor coming out of her breast! it was truly remarkable. but Big pHam has us by the balls.new reps with lunches Everyday! I cant keep up with all the new chemo drugs .... everyday theres something new and better in chemo Pharm..and the docs eat into it...I wish there were more reps coming arund with alternative approaches. I think the Oncology docs would listen. One ONC doc just started issuing mj cards.
I dream about the day a marijuana garden and lil dispensary would be onsite at the Cancer Center with classes on how to grow your own. That would be so awesome!
 
dirtyshawa

dirtyshawa

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All of the replies and different perspectives are extremely helpful and informative. I've been reaching out to others on social media for the right information on the subject, which is growing my knowledge on the subject as well. Thank you all for your responses!
 
squiggly

squiggly

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I have seen thousands of cancer patients through my 10 year career In Oncology. Only one patient that came into to see her prognosis had taken upon herself a completely natural path.. something called ... Three Feathers. ... to get rid of her breast cancer. She was extremely dedicated to the intense herbal diet and showed me the actual photographs of her Breast Cancer Tumor coming out of her breast! it was truly remarkable. but Big pHam has us by the balls.new reps with lunches Everyday! I cant keep up with all the new chemo drugs .... everyday theres something new and better in chemo Pharm..and the docs eat into it...I wish there were more reps coming arund with alternative approaches. I think the Oncology docs would listen. One ONC doc just started issuing mj cards.
I dream about the day a marijuana garden and lil dispensary would be onsite at the Cancer Center with classes on how to grow your own. That would be so awesome!

Well, the reality is that cancer is an extremely morphologically variable disease. It's to the point now where it's almost improper to simply label it "cancer" and walk away.

There is certainly usury going on in big pharma with regard to pricing structures for their various drugs--but the reason why you see MOST (not all, but most) new chemo drugs is that they are targeting a specific type of cancer cell. I realize that you, being in oncology, don't need to hear this--but I will say it for those who do.

When we're talking about cancer in the general case we're talking about one of your cells that has mutated in such a way so as to cause it to be highly proliferative. Typically the mutation occurs at one of several points in the DNA responsible for producing proteins which regulate cell growth, proliferation, and especially "checkpoints" for the cell growth process (where typically the fidelity of DNA replication necessary to create a daughter cell is checked prior to moving to the next stage of growth--think of this as a spot where your cell proofreads it's work before passing its DNA to a daughter cell).

The many different types of cancer arise from the following considerations:

1. Which cell type in the body was the one that originally mutated and became cancerous. Almost any cell can become cancerous, and we have many different cell types.
2. Where the mutation occured, and what precisely the new genetic code for the mutation is. Some mutations might totally cripple a cell regulation process, while others might only weaken them. There are many types of mutations that can occur and in different places--and of all these possibilities it's up in the air which DNA sequence the mutated portions will be replaced with. This makes a big difference in how the cancer cell acts and what types of treatments it will respond to.
3. What is the genetic makeup of the person? Maybe this person already had a weakend cell regulation DNA sequence relative to the rest of us. Indeed, some genetic mutations present from conception to birth (ie not of an exogenous nature) do cause cancers.

So when they make a new chemo drug these days, what they're typically doing is targeting a specific mutation from a specific cell type which applies to a specific portion of the population. The less directed, more general, chemo treatments are updated less frequently. These do not typically target specific types of cells, but instead inhibit mitosis in ALL cells. Another reason you are starting to see new chemo treatments that are directed is that stopping mitosis in ALL cells is really painful and shitty for a person receiving that treatment. It may even kill them or cause cancer to develop in a different cell type. So the field is trying to get away from that "shotgun approach" treatment and they're moving towards these more targeted medicines.

More and more we're seeing this incorporated with strides forward in nanotechnology. There is a chance we may see in our lifetime a chemo treatment that literally carries mitotic inhibitors ONLY to cancerous cells and leaves every other cell in the body unpoisoned. We're heading there now, and these type of targeted treatments are a big reason why.

Big pharma is just awful, but rest assured that--as it regards research--a lot of what is being done is being done for good scientific and medical reasons. There is CERTAINLY usury going on on the business end (and the scientific end is sometimes complicit in this), but I think its pretty clear that there are a lot of scientists, doctors, and people who are trying their very best to drive this boat in the direction it needs to go for the betterment of humanity. We have all lost someone to cancer, and while people with fancy suits and yachts might not give a shit--the fact is a great deal of the people doing the actual work here DO.
 
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Natural

Natural

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Thanks squiggly, a much needed dichotomy had to be presented here. Or rather, some light shed on our similarities, rather than our differences. Definitely, most of us have lost somebody to cancer. Surgery and targeted treatments have a great amount of success. Especially for certain cancers..in certain areas of the body..at certain stages...most definitely. Those avenues should be exploited without delay. With that I whole-heartedly agree.
Yet, we both know every circumstance is different. For example, there are those who have in-operable cancers at later stages, with no effective chemo treatment known. That is an expensive death warrant. You're left with maybe some radiation treatment and most likely a chemo that won't work...there is no alternative. Personally, I'd go with canna and some other types of treatment..over some crazy expensive cocktail..that may in fact help kill me more than save me. I wonder what the actual numbers are, but my money says that there are more people becoming terminal than being saved with hospital care. That means we have miles to go and haven't even begun. I hope you're right about new technology..I hope it's effective and affordable.
I'm glad you're open to more research and the acknowledgment that we don't know enough...particularly with cannabis. I think we should give much credence to the purveyors of alternative treatments, e.g. raw food diet, vitamins, herbs, oils..and most definitely cannabinoids. After-all, the brave people who get sick are the ones who are figuring out if any type of treatment works...outside of conventional hospital practice. Often out of desperation with little alternative. Shame on folks running scams..those are the worst.
 
bongobongo

bongobongo

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Squigs, it kinda doesn't make any sense that cannabis may depress the immune system when research says that it may actually help with problems such as autoimmune disorders, does it?

If nothing else, then adding lysine to her daily regimen would help boost immune system response. If she's had surgeries then a combination of lysine+arginine is clinically proven to speed wound granulation. I've seen it in action myself, it's pretty amazing, and I use lysine for cold sores instead of the liver-killer Valtrex, and, get this--it's just as effective, and it's a fraction of the cost.

I always wonder how many docs actually know about that, vs dietitians.
Like I said, it's unlikely to be harmful to use cannabis oil as a treatment alongside traditional medical treatments. However, it's not possible to rule out any of the following:

1. Unexpected drug interactions with medicines prescribed by physicians (including chemo)
2. Depression of immune system, or some other biochemical function which may have otherwise worked to cure the cancer (in conjunction with the current medical treatment she is receiving).
3. Negative health effects related to cannabis use making life harder for her.

As much as I would like to rules these out--as I'm sure many physicians, patients, and generally compassionate people would like to--it just can't be done. The studies haven't been performed. There is virtually no science out there which can be used to rule such possibilities out. The science which does is exist is EXTREMELY preliminary relative to normal medical treatments. That doesn't mean it's less effective or less impressive--it simply means that we know less about it.


As far palliative care, I think the jury has come back on this one pretty resoundingly. Yes, it can help a great deal--especially for chemo patients. If it's time to make someone comfortable, there is no good reason not to give them some cannabis oil if they want it and believe it will make them feel better.

Beyond that it's really hard to make a solid recommendation one way or the other. It really must come down to the person and what their best judgement tells them, because any scientist or physician worth their salt would just be taking shots in the dark if they tried to address the above 3 concerns (and frankly many more I'm probably leaving out). The data just do not exist to make such a thing feasible.

Anyone willing to tell you otherwise has one of the following:

1. No scientific or medical training.
2. Questionable ethics.
3. A strongly held opinion/belief for which they have little or no solid evidence.

The best thing you can get from anyone regarding all of this is an expert opinion. While it doesn't hold the weight of a well tested scientific explanation, expertise can afford some measure of comfort when dealing with harrowing decisions like this--and it's better than nothing, which is honestly about all we have right now.



Exactly, they are scattered at best. Some have chemo some have other orbs, some go natural process with cannabis. The results I saw is the patients in chemo and heavy meds benefited by aides nausea. He has also noticed a increase in energy (placebo who know). But for certain it help. The largest benefits and this is from blood reports and over well feeing of the patient (which is so far and Inbetween because some are just gonna get high. Are the patients that are on chemo and show the blood work. Simple medication included like nausea meds and stuff. I have a strict holy hit oil from the skunk farm and full side exact copy.


I see then benefits and thats my opinion, and I don't stop.. Ever. When I saw a kid, 21 .. 7 years younger then me and I helped his relief (I've done quite a bit of patients I feel bad for but keep hope something will work.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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For palliative care it's unquestionably a good treatment path. Like I said before if the person is on their way out--you give them whatever the hell they want. I'd rather float out on a cloud of weed than morphine personally.

Same time, we shouldn't demonize the scientists working on these cures (and as Natural noted, there are MANY straight up cures--like you come in with this very specific cancer, we give you a drug, you're cured seeya later), and we ESPECIALLY shouldn't demonize the doctors administering them.

I mean we can lament how far behind we are (and we are), but we should also be proud of where we've gotten and where we look to be headed. Thousands of people are now cured of previously fatal cancers every year now. That's something that would've been unthinkable 20 years ago. That is amazing. Scientifically, medically, and just straight up. It's amazing to have those thousands of people with us still contributing to society.

Big pharma does a lot wrong, but it does some right. I choose to see the glass as half full on its way to overflowing, rather than half empty and on it's way to being dried out.

Let's also not forget--these doctors get only cursory training in chemistry (up to Organic II generally, maybe biochem 2 if they were biochem or bmb majors for pre-med). They have no choice but to go with what these guys are telling them. Why? Because they are the experts.

These raw foods guys, canna oil dudes, etc--man bless them for wanting to help, and bless them more for doing what they believe is right but all this is (currently) is wishful thinking as far as cures are concerned.

Like I said, and you acknowledged, I'm TOTALLY up for more research into this. In fact I think to not research it ALL would be unethical and immoral. However, I can't take (pardon the epithet) some hippy's word for it when it comes to a clear and present scientific/medical conundrum.

As you correctly state its the sick people who are doing the worst fighting here, they are in the thick of it. For that reason I don't think it's appropriate to take shots in the dark, unless that's something THEY want to do.

Frankly, the idea that anyone except someone who had either been cured or witnessed someone being cured by such a treatment would present it to the world as a possible cure for cancer is appaling to me.

When you do something like that you're not doing it for the patient, you're doing it to support something you believe in and to stroke your own ego. You're doing it for you. It's wrong.

Anyone who comes up with these alternative treatments and they either:

A. Are doing it for the patients.
B. Have some kind of evidence.
or
C. Are doing the proper type of inquiry to find if there is evidence.

gets the thumbs up from me.

If you don't fall into one of those groups and you're running around selling snake oil to cancer patients--I truly believe that if there is a hell they must have a special room for dudes like you (just to be clear because sometimes shit is confusing in text only--I'm not directing that at anyone here, it's a general statement :p ).
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
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Well squigs, ya did it again, and you are correct, the research and papers I'm finding say that cannabis can depress the immune system.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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Well squigs, ya did it again, and you are correct, the research and papers I'm finding say that cannabis can depress the immune system.

Still, this might make it a great counterpart to various leukemia treatments. There are lots of ways this can be used to a patient's advantage--but it's important that a physician figure out when is the best time.

I would certainly recommend seeing a physician who sees cannabis treatment in a positive light rather than someone who totally denies it's possible benefits. The second guy is going to pretend he knows more than he possibly can, whereas the first guy is likely to do the work and figure out if cannabis makes sense for your particular type of cancer.

I do not recommend that every person with cancer just try it because "it can't hurt".

It can.

There are certain cancers where depressing the immune system is EXTREMELY bad juju.
 
K

kolah

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"Blinded by science."

It's a sad world when real cures are ridiculed and kept hidden from the masses of sick and suffering people... young and old. Big Pharma will never have real cures, too much money being made off what their doing. It's a trillion dollar biz and there's no stopping it. That's all I'll say on this thread, no need to debate or play mental Ping-Pong here....I'm gone. ;)
 
Natural

Natural

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"Blinded by science."

It's a sad world when real cures are ridiculed and kept hidden from the masses of sick and suffering people... young and old. Big Pharma will never have real cures, too much money being made off what their doing. It's a trillion dollar biz and there's no stopping it. That's all I'll say on this thread, no need to debate or play mental Ping-Pong here....I'm gone. ;)
I'm sure there's been some shady buy-offs. I can think of a few recent ones. It's a shady business fer sher. You should check out Dallas Buyer's Club..I think you'd like it. My generation's sexual awareness began in the age of aids..and I never knew about stuff happening like they portray in the movie.
 
LocalGrowGuy

LocalGrowGuy

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I wanna be clear here dude, for the sake of your sanity.

This type of treatment cannot hurt, but it is not a guaranteed cure all. The efficacy depends very highly on what specific type of cancer she has (there are thousands of types). Research has shown pretty clearly that cannabis oil has no effect on some types of cancers, only slight effect on others, and only in extremely specific cases provides a possible cure.

A problem this often presents is that people, believing cannabis oil will save them, will use it to the exclusion of all other treatments--ensuring a horrible death for them.

This should only be attempted in the event that the specific type of cancer is identified and falls into one of the groups known to be treatable with cannabis oil.

If that is not the case, it's best to continue working with doctors and to add cannabis oil as a treatment on top of their recommendations.

Failure to do so could result in a much more painful end for your family member than anyone would wish for them. I caution you against putting their life in the hands of internet.

As for anyone who fervently disagrees with me on this, please keep your opinion to yourself (ie, do not direct it at me). I am merely providing my educated opinion in hopes that it can help dirtyshawa make an informed decision.
This post is fantastical. That is all.
 
squiggly

squiggly

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263
"Blinded by science."

It's a sad world when real cures are ridiculed and kept hidden from the masses of sick and suffering people... young and old. Big Pharma will never have real cures, too much money being made off what their doing. It's a trillion dollar biz and there's no stopping it. That's all I'll say on this thread, no need to debate or play mental Ping-Pong here....I'm gone. ;)

I just want to say that I'm not ridiculing "real cures"--in case my intention was misunderstood. I think I've gone pretty far out of my way to avoid doing just that. Going as far as saying my professional opinon is that MJ can be beneficial for some cancers, and it would be immoral to not research that avenue fully--with the full weight of our scientific prowess as a species.

I do think there are those who do exactly that, unfortunately.

As for everything else you said, we're in agreement. I will NEVER work for Big Pharma for exactly that reason. I don't care what they offer to pay me.
 
Dopegeist

Dopegeist

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i couldn't persuade her to stop getting treatment if i wanted to. Thanks for a voice of reason it's much appreciated!
If she's on chemo, I don't think anyone is advocating stopping chemo...Sure has been reported to help with the side effects of chemo, or the side effects of the drugs to treat the side effects of chemo.
Nutrition is huge when your body is repairing itself, and pot makes you hungry. So it is at least good for that.

Also, you may want to look into a new chemo treatment being used in England, bathing single organs in higher chemo doses at one time. Since it is shut off from the rest of the body, they can up the ante. They're using it for liver cancer, go figure.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-20270400

But if it's spread all over her body, may not be of help. Could just be at full body nuke.
 
Dopegeist

Dopegeist

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This post is fantastical. That is all.
I'd didn't see anything in his post that lead me to believe he wasn't being objective and factual. In fact most of his posts...(But you need to try Mycogrow dude, you'll never use Cap again) http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/mycogrow-soluble-1-lb.html

So ease up Guy!
Squiggs and TK are two people who aren't on here spewing bullshit. You want the truth, you listen.

I can't say that about many others on this site, you included (hell, me included :)
 
dirtyshawa

dirtyshawa

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I don't know the particulars of her treatment, but the day I started this thread she just had surgery to have some organs removed. So, I don't think that treatment is an option at this point, but I'm not sure. I try to tip toe around the particulars of the treatment...it's a tense situation right now
 
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