Best Led For Hps Supplementation?

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Toaster79

Toaster79

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Here are some charts that might come handy when picking our leds.

This one we know allready:

2015 02 19 052127


This chart shows the color spectrum of white LEDs at certain CCT:

2015 02 19 052251


Here we have color bining of Cree's white LEDs with their coding:

2015 02 19 052036


And the last one is partial of McAdams ellipse, just to get the feel what this term is all about:

2015 02 19 051959


This last one also belongs to Cree LEDs.

More or less we have to just overlay first two charts to pick the right LED.

These are all white LED specific.
 
FlyinJStable

FlyinJStable

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that is the ticket Now I am looking at the sunKing more for Ideas than anything but the Idea is sound.
so I wonder who here on the Farm could build me 4 corner supplemental LEDS fer the FlyinJStables's
lol I know I can do it just . . . . . . IDK maybe
you cool about posting a schematic with drivers and powering requirements where could I get a quality plan .
to go by ?
Have a great Night T man......... Say, how about building a few and putting a kit together for us DIY-er
Peace
 
tags420

tags420

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You want this...
2 6RelativeQuantumEfficHEIDI


Not this...
Absorption spectrum



The first is the mccree curve(no relation to cree led's), and is what actually drives photosynthesis in reality. It is the whole intact leafs response to different light nm's. The second is done by extracting pigments individually and mixing them with alcohol...then exciting them with light.

As for led's. Unless you are using a bigger cob...the bridgelux vero line(vero 10, 13, 18) is better in the smaller sizes. And the prices are straight up cheap.
Cree is only dominant at lower currents or in the 3070 and 3590 models only. Otherwise little vero's have an edge. Or run a vero29 hard...and it will hang with a cree 3070 driven hard too.
Or I would look at the xpl from cree. It's a better xml/xml2, both in output and thermal management.

Also...different white spectrums are a lot more revealing if you can look at them in a non-normalized manner. IT will aso help you see that higher cri versions are less of the blue and green/yellow...not more red. It is a filter that makes great cri...but literally blocks light to do it. And is why high cri is alway lower in output.
VERO High CRI loss


If you notice...the 4K isn't actually missing that much red compared to the 3K, but has more blue. Crees are even closer to eachother.
 
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FlyinJStable

FlyinJStable

2,518
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Knowledge
seems the more I learn t about heat sink the driver and the ac power converter and 6 round disk style
420-470 red and 550-650 blue w/one center
havin fun with the Idea right now I have a lot to learn, thats half the fun
FlyJ
 
MGRox

MGRox

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It may help here to define these different spectral charts.

Absorption spectrum- is simply related to light that is absorbed by whatever object is being considered, tissue, chloroplast, chlorophyll etc.

Action spectrum- is a relation to the "Quanta" of light intercepted by said object vs the amount of O2 or CO2 evolved.

Quantum Efficiency (Yield) - (McCree) is a relation of Efficiency by Comparing then number of "Absorbed" Quanta vs the "Action" of CO2 evolution.

There has been many tests regarding the accuracy of action spectrum (typically specific to Chlorophyll, carotenoids or xanthophylls) and process were proved effective even in the 60's. There were also tests done on whole plants or tissues as well. However, accurate correction for the alteration of spectrum via solutions was not achieved until the late 1980's. Action spectrum then been verified to be accurate, though never intended to be a representation of "requirements" per se.
60's paper checking accuracy:
60's paper for action spectrum of whole tomato at different lights:
Tomato action


Modern Action spectrum and Corrected action spectrum (for solution and Chlorophyll A/B) along with an absorption vs quantum yield chart:
http://plantsinaction.science.uq.ed...-absorption-and-photosynthetic-action-spectra
Corrected action Qantum Yield

from that page, in regards to applying "efficiency" to quantum yield:
"Quantum yield is referenced to values obtained in red ligh(600-625 nm), which is most effective in driving photosynthesis, requiring about 10 quanta per CO2 assimilated (based on high-precision leaf gas exchange) compared with about 12 quanta at the blue peak (450 nm)."

Since it takes more quanta absorbed for CO2 action in the blue range; it is shown on the McCree curve as "less efficient" than red. Each of the corresponding wavelengths was plotted in terms of "efficiency".


One problem though with the McCree curve which has been investigated is that; it can only be derived under low light situations and "assumes" that the response in higher light is linear. Modern investigation into this has found this to not be the case; though of course not a major alteration, but probably the most accurate.
Here is a very good paper that is pretty recent on this: http://www.bio21.bas.bg/ipp/gapbfiles/v-26/00_1-2_58-69.pdf
Corrected quantum Yield

Also then, when considering PAR, it is of note that all frequencies between 400 and 700nm are treated with "equal value" despite there being different levels of efficiencies @ differing wavelengths. As well the sensors utilized for par readings are not necessarily the most accurate either. Not in anyway discounting PAR of course, just bringing forth some shortcomings. LINK to sensor comparisons.

One final paper here that's pretty decent as well; compares the photosynthesis rates and lighting sources for a crop of wheat. It also compares the spectral efficiency of various lights.
http://biology.mcgill.ca/Phytotron/LightWkshp1994/1.5 Bugbee/Bugbee text.htm

TABLE 2. The spectral efficiency of six electric lamps and sunlight.
Lamp type Ratio
  • Low Pressure Sodium (LPS) .99
  • High Pressure Sodium (HPS) .95
  • Incandescent (INC) .95
  • Metal Halide (MH) .90
  • Cool White Fluorescent (CWF) .89
  • Red Light-Emitting Diode (LED) .89
  • Solar on a clear day .88
"Spectral efficiency is defined as the ratio of the lamp spectral output multiplied by McCree's quantum efficiency weighting factors, divided by the number of photons between 400 and 700 nm."

"Not all species are sensitive to spectral quality, however. Low-pressure sodium lamps did not decrease the growth and yield of wheat compared to HPS and MH lamps (Table 3), a finding we recently confirmed. The plants under the low pressure sodium lamps of course did not look green, but the apparent difference in green color disappeared when the plants were removed and placed together in full spectrum light. Studies with wheat grown under red LED's also indicate that chlorophyll synthesis, photosynthesis, growth, and yield of wheat (Triticum aestivum) are insensitive to spectral quality."
.....
"Soybean leaves grown under HPS lamps are visually chlorotic and have reduced chlorophyll concentrations compared with plants grown under MH lamps. However, most plant leaves have excess chlorophyll, and small reductions do not necessarily decrease photosynthetic rates. Three recent studies in our laboratory confirm the reduction in chlorophyll under HPS lamps, but indicate that this reduction does not reduce growth or yield (Table 4). In fact, growth and yield were slightly better under HPS lamps. There was greater petiole elongation in plants grown under HPS lamps, but we lowered the plants as they grew taller to maintain a constant PPF at the top of the canopy. Lateral spread was prevented by enclosing the plants with a double layer of window screen around the perimeter of the stand. The reduced chlorophyll concentration may have increased PPF transmittance and allowed more PPF to penetrate to lower leaves in the canopy, thereby increasing canopy photosynthesis."
.....
"Differences in radiation quality from the six most common electric lamps have little effect on photosynthetic rate. Radiation quality primarily alters growth because of changes in branching or internode elongation, which change radiation absorption. Growth and yield in wheat appear to be insensitive to radiation quality. Growth and yield in soybeans can be slightly increased under high pressure sodium lamps compared to metal halide lamps, in spite of greatly reduced chlorophyll concentrations under HPS lamps. Daily integrated photosynthetic photon flux (mol m-2 d-1) most directly determines leaf anatomy and growth. Photosynthetic photon flux levels of 800 μmol m-2 s-1 are adequate to simulate field daily-integrated PPF levels for both short and long day plants, but plant canopies can benefit from much higher PPF levels."



One last thing here as it strikes me as humorous. Since the Quantum Yield is a relation of "efficiency"; then to get equivalent CO2 evolution for each given wavelength.......the required spectrum must be the inverse of the chart shown. So, what does that look like? Well here is the McCree curve shown in a post above, inverted onto a "sunlight" spectrum. Decent match I'd say :D.
RQE vs sunlight
 
MrBelvedere

MrBelvedere

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@lurchlurkin from another site posted this aha moment:

Light does not travel in a particle nature. Light travels in a wave nature. Imagine you're sitting on the shoreline, watching the waves roll in and out. Light is kind of like that, except it's a 3 mile high tsunami that will rock your socks and rip into every nook and cranny that you don't have completely sealed.

If you want to try a cool experiment, go get one of those little laser pointers and tape it to a table pointed at a wall about 3 feet away. Presuming your walls are white (if not place a piece of paper where the laser hits) then take a strand of hair and place it directly in front of the laser beam.

So now you will see that you have a very bright portion of light directly behind the hair on the wall. You do not see a shadow. Even more perplexing, you will see little "dashes" of missing light in a horizontal line (provided you're holding the hair vertically).

The thing is, when the light hits the hair the original wave breaks off and starts two new waves. When the new waves are out of sync by 180 degrees they will cancel each other out. This depends on distance from the hair to the wall how well you will see them.

So you see, any object may cause light to deflect and start new waves (the same happens on either side of a hole) and they will only cancel each other out when they are out of sync 180 degrees. If you move the hair forward and back you will see that the waves change their spacing.

This does depend on the wavelength of the light, but can you hold your spectrometer perfectly still and are you willing to do this over every millimeter of the room?

Yes, common sense tells us that large objects can "shadow" others from light.

So again, rent a PAR meter, it will tell you how much "light" the plants can use at any given location as a sum of (high wavelength UV - vis light - near infrared) that plants are capable of using.

Does it make different colors? Yup, some you can't see, but the plants can use all of them and even if they're less efficient in photosynthesis (green) in reality the refraction causes the utilization to be about the same as blue light. Red light is slightly more available but causes stretching.
 
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