Best Led For Hps Supplementation?

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MGRox

MGRox

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For all the LED guys out there;

If a person were to supplement HPS with leds, say 10-20%; what would be the best to use?

Flowering of course.

COB's of a particular Kelvin? Mixed colors of LED's? Augment certain spectrums (450, 660)?

Just curious and thanks for any thoughts
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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HPS peaks at green/yellow color spectrum and missing red spectrum big time. They are also crap when it comes to blue light spectrum. What I would do is suplement blue light spectrum in range between 420-455nm and red spectrum in range between 630-660nm In ratio 1:3. If using COBs id say 3000K high CRI and 6500K in ratio 2:1. Use quality product.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Thanks guys! That's exactly what I was looking for. I wasn't sure if the ratio's would be different as a supplement vs sole illumination.

@Toaster79 "High CRI"..... are you thinking 80 or 90+ here?

I'm also curious, if I was using COB and could only supplement one spectrum (I.e. chip) ....what would you pick? 6500k?

last. What do you guys usually figure for weight of Al heatsink per XX watts? (passive cooling @ Tc <55c)
( Chips @ 50% max drive)
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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Here we go! The learning curve! Atm I'm out. GeT back to you in in a few hours.

Keep it green!
 
Canalchemist

Canalchemist

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Personally, I am not a LED guy but I have heard of these finishing bulbs 10000k, I would be inclined to supplement with something in the UV spectrum 10000k and 6500k.

And Lasers :cool:
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Here we go! The learning curve! Atm I'm out. GeT back to you in in a few hours.

Keep it green!

xD! I'm Always ready to learn new stuff!!!

Hopefully the curve shouldn't be too big. I'm familiar with lighting and terminology (from this industry and fish), so all the basics there. I'm also familiar some with leds, just not the high power cobs. Also, I've never built up a full hood, but I do have some XP-E star chips. I'm familiar with electronics and am aware of LED temps vs lifespan too. I guess with heatsinks I'm aware of thermal resistivity from using TEM's and such.

heh, I have a heatsink here that will dissipate 150w @ + 10F temp rise :D. Was a custom thing from a project back when I had a fish store, but won't really do what I need here.

Oh @Canalchemist I "probably" won't run any UV (per se) as I have a CBD variety in the mix and my main Affie has some CBD's too. Not positive, but I believe I'd read that UV and CBD don't mix well? So, for a single spectrum maybe the 6500k then?

Kinda been honing in on the CXA1304's (the main hps is not huge here as this whole thing is an experiment) with whatever K or K combo and CRI you guys think best.
 
MrBelvedere

MrBelvedere

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HPS peaks at green/yellow color spectrum and missing red spectrum big time. They are also crap when it comes to blue light spectrum. What I would do is suplement blue light spectrum in range between 420-455nm and red spectrum in range between 630-660nm In ratio 1:3. If using COBs id say 3000K high CRI and 6500K in ratio 2:1. Use quality product.

Mg I wish I knew more about this, but here is a really good company with high-quality stuff, and you can totally customize your LED to whatever you want and also it's reported the owner is very knowledgeable about lighting although he's not knowledgeable about cannabis. But if you called them up they have free consultation and you can tell them you want more blue and red like the other posters said
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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Man I just ran across this :



This is a must read with all the links included. Once we're done reading (myself included), then we can continue this debate. I just found out I know nothing.

Keep it bright!
 
soserthc1

soserthc1

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I use 2 separate ones that are customized by @LRTSystems , one being really blue and the other being super red . Sorry all this lighting talk is Greek to me but they seem to kick ass as the 4 plants that sit under these 2 lights are generally better than the ones directly under hps. Not sure if @LRTSystems still lurks here ???
 
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MGRox

MGRox

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Man I just ran across this :



This is a must read with all the links included. Once we're done reading (myself included), then we can continue this debate. I just found out I know nothing.

Keep it bright!

Okay need to switch gears in mah brain xD. Well first; don't get all freaked out that and that all you know is wrong. I believe the guy gets a bit off with some things about spectrum. Otherwise there's a ton of nice links there and a good find!!

His primary basis is from a paper he links and he states --- "green is more photosynthetically efficient than red (pdf file). All the latest research and my own experiments back this claim"

First and foremost this paper is looking at light levels at or photoinhibition / saturation; when several active plant responses (both long-term and short) are also in place to avert damage. At high intensities, electron transport rate and CO2 fixation is reduced significantly in PSI and PSII photosystems. I guess I have a paper with a good pic to represent this.
Photoinhibition

In the paper he is going off of, it is stated; " Because green light can penetrate further into the leaf than red or blue light, in strong white light, any additional green light absorbed by the lower chloroplasts would increase leaf photosynthesis to a greater extent than would additional red or blue light."

Here, in a high light scenario at capacity.......additional light supplied in green is Then more effective than additional blue or red.

Then the paper also states: "On an absorbed quantum basis, the efficiency or photosynthetic quantum yield of green light is comparable with that of red light, and greater than that of blue light."

I'm sure you are aware of Action spectrum, Absorption spectrum and Quantum Yield and that's all they are referring to specifically here. If we look at the chart established and referred in the paper we can see this.
Fig Bug 2
You can see that @ 550nm green does have a higher quantum yield than blue and not much less than red.

The paper also focuses on internal light levels and activities where it states; "Using the method of Takahashi et al. (1994) , Vogelmann and Evans (2002) and Evans and Vogelmann (2003) indicated that, on a unit chlorophyll basis, the chloroplasts in the lowermost part absorb about 10 and <20%, respectively, of the green light of those in the uppermost part. For wavelengths with strong absorption, such as red and blue, the fractions are much smaller. In C. japonica, the absorption of 680 nm (red) light by the lowermost chloroplasts is <2% of the absorption by the uppermost chloroplasts on a unit chlorophyll basis. For blue light in spinach, the estimated absorption by the lowermost chloroplasts was <5% of that of the uppermost"

So, deep inside the leaf. Green is significantly higher in absorption vs other colors as the other colors have been previously absorbed.

They also talk quite a bit about photoinhibition and rubisco response w/ green light. Of note here they state:
"The greatest decrease in Fv/Fm in the uppermost part of the leaf was observed with blue light, and Fv/Fm approached high levels at depth. The second greatest damage to the surface chloroplasts was observed with red light, but the damage was confined to the irradiated half of the leaf. On the other hand, damage to the surface chloroplasts was least with green light, but continued deep into the leaf, probably because sufficient green light penetrated and was absorbed by the chloroplasts in the abaxial side."
.......
"As Nishio (2000) clearly postulated, and as we have detailed so far, red or blue light is preferentially absorbed by the chloroplasts in the upper part of the leaf. Then, when PPFD is high, the energy of these wavelengths tends to be dissipated as heat by the upper chloroplasts, while green light drives photosynthesis in the lower chloroplasts that are not light saturated."
......
"Namely, red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, but as PPFD increases, light energy absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photosynthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlorophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having chlorophyll with a ‘green window’ the leaves are able to maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions.
.....
Given these constraints, it would be ideal to have chlorophyll that enables considerable light absorptance, due to the high absorptivity of blue and red light, but also penetration of green light to the lower chloroplasts. As Nishio (2000) argued, this may explain why land plants adopted Chl a and b from green algae but did not develop other pigment systems.


and last with the paper;
"The most efficient situation is realized when the profile of light absorption and the profi le of photosynthetic capacity are perfectly matched, and all the chloroplasts in the leaf behave synchronously with respect to photosynthetic light saturation ( Farquhar 1989 , Terashima and Hikosaka 1995 , Richter and Fukshansky 1998 ). "


That paper is pretty good that he provided and does cover a lot of aspects. However, I think he brings this up "out of context" to some degree. To me this furthers the idea of plants being (and have evolved) adaptable to many situations. Also, with this information; various reasons as to "Why" can be drawn together easily. If we take a look a sunlight spectrum from a "farther distance"; some things can become apparent too.
Spectrum of sun

Here we can see that throughout the entire spectrum of sunlight; plants adapted to the area with the highest percentage of energy (irrespective of visibility to us). Also, that the peak of this window is pretty much in the green band. It makes some sense then as to why plants may develop to be green and do not specifically peak in photosynthetic activity in these ranges (i.e. absorption spectrum). Nature doesn't take nature for granted (lol), so it also makes sense that; though not primarily deriving energy from green areas, the plant still can / does make use of this spectral band.
Next to this then we have red, which would be the most logical area for evolution as it has a lower energy state than blue; because of this, it can be absorbed in larger quantities without photoinhibition (heat, xanthophyll cycle, NPQ etc). Finally considering the blue end; this is the color typically most prevalent in low light (and underwater). It makes sense here that the plants would evolve an ability to specifically utilize the band for low light situations. Further it makes sense that the The xanthophylls / carotenoids would have their peaks in this region; not only from blue being the last remaining color in low light, but more importantly to ensure amino synthesis and photoprotection under the widest possible conditions.

-------
Before this I was of the opinion that full spectrum is always better than partial. When I had my fish store, we would throw an actinic on for color and otherwise a 6500K MH. All the research and hype in that industry leads you to 10-20,000K, but we always had better growth with 6500K . Before this too, my biggest hesitation with LED's as a primary light is related to their general lack of spectral diversity.

After reading this stuff. I'm of the same opinion xD. Just like with nutrients a balance is always the best option. Heck, really anything natural is all about balance.

sorry to ramble :)
 
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Toaster79

Toaster79

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You sum it up nicely :D

So HPS covers the deep penetration part nicely but lacks the surface part which takes up 95-98% of photosynthesis. And LEDs hit that surface just at perfect wave legth. In flower you need more red spectrum than blue and in veg vice versa.
 
Canalchemist

Canalchemist

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Ha ha, you know that time, you remember, I should apologize, I can be stubborn and opinionated, your are obviously a knowledgeable individual, perhaps I felt a little smaller when you flexed ;)
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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@seaslug Think I can hear people in the background, in response to your post, saying; "oh gosh no! don't encourage him!" :D

You just keep on rambling! You make it a lot easier for us, well, atleast for me. I can put it together in my head, but am just unable to write it down as you do. Keep it up man!
 
MGRox

MGRox

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Thanks guys for the very kind words, it's very humbling!! There's a lot of great info and help that has / gets offered up on this forum all the time and it's great! If my random rambles can contribute or prove helpful to some people; then that's the best I could ever hope for.

@Canalchemist, Nice one! Yea I remember, no worries and no need, the perspective from which you approached was valid; I was a bit snappy and apologize to you. Being opinionated is good in that your probably not a sheeple :p. I do feel bad though with the small thing; as I feel "ain't no one better than no one."

Heh, I know it's hard to get an idea of personality with text and such. To these ends, if you picture me as someone like Data (star trek); it may help here.....particularly with "information".

Back on point then xD

I went ahead and ordered the goodies needed to setup this test. I'll have the area with the HPS only running before the LED's, so I will need to run a second test. So far then, I've got the hps setup and it's dimmable.

Stuff I ordered for LED's

3000k - 80cri - 107 Lu/W 4-Step CXA1304's (B2 bin)

6500K - 80cri - 127 Lu/W 4-step CXA1304's (C2 bin)

40W Meanwell HLG/HLN ballasts (B models)

90 x 40 mm Machined Circular heatsinks

With the LED's, for now I'll have to run those. If I like the setup, then I'll order the 100 or whatever I need to get the high bins. I went back and forth forever on CRI, but decided I would rather take the efficacy over CRI of an individual spot source. I should be able to have a great control over "average cri" via all the connections / dimming.

Probably be a few weeks to a month to get everything together I suppose; meh.
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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Good choice! How many of each have you ordered? What do the heatsinks look like. Do you have any links? Will you be using vents or natural convection?

Keep it bright!
 
Toaster79

Toaster79

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Didn't realize you were going that low on the wattage. I would suggest new XHP50 or XHP70 series or maybe MTG2 or MKR even multiple XML2s for better spread.
 
MGRox

MGRox

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xD yea I mentioned it's a smaller experiment. The HPS is 150w I guess. For the LED's I ordered 8 of each K, so 16 total; though I had originally planned on only 8. I doubled the sources as per the suggestions from you guys here.

I "would like" to have the total LED power at around 50w, but could take them to 120w or lower. The max power then, that I'll be using for a single cob is about 7.25W; in the preferred range it will be more around 5w ea.

The ballasts were HLN and HLG but were the 40w series (B type, so external dim). Link is here, though seems to just say waiting now xD. www.meanwell.com/search/HLN-40H/HLN-40H-spec.pdf

Heatsinks were Chinabay special Heatsink

I'll be using Passive cooling.

Also, not familiar with some of those families you mentioned. I looked quickly at the XHP, but efficacy is lower than CXA's. I still need to check the "M" models and XML's. What would be the advantage here using these? Do any of these have higher efficiency than the CXA's? Suppose I'd need to see if they come in board mounted versions too. I don't have a reflow station hehe.
 
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