Penalized for using medical marijuana by pain clinic

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diamond2.0

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QUACKS . May be hard finding another. I actually have no dr anymore. I went to a naturopathic clinic in seattle where they send aids patients to die and they quit me because of being a mmj patient. Especially after i told them how i got better when they served up pain and death . I simply couldnt believe it being on ssi and permenant disability ! They just chase symptoms anyway . I bet you can do better ! I been off thier shit since 02. Best thing i ever did. I had a dr. then he turned christian and wouldnt do pill or mmj which he signed off on before. Then me and wife were kicked out of his office no charge for asking for diabetic shoes after havnin nerve issues for 25 years. Thier anything but benevolant ! Ya want something done right do it yourself ! Im surprised they didnt take my parking pass too . jeeze.
 
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RootsGal

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I am brand new here. I am going to run into this problem next week.
I have a card and I only need oxycodone 20MG's twice a day.
I am about 3 years late on this topic. Hoping someone can offer me their opinion on my approach, as I may be starting at a pain clinic soon. I am also hoping my primary care doctor will say "yes" to prescribing (1) narcotic, to avoid all this "rep tape."
I use SUNRISE CBD spray which of course has THC in it, so I will test positive.
January 2015, Dept of ConsumerProtection (CT) medical MJ board, held a meeting, about adding illnesses.
I printed out the minutes, and one of the board members operates a Pain MGMT clinic.
His rational for approving a radiculopothy & surgery that involved the spine, was based on his stating: Marijuana works parallel with narcotics and actually reduces the dose needed."

If I take those notes to his colleague, along with my CBD SUNRISE spray bottle, any chance they would waive, just the THC portion of the urine screening?
I also use vape oil CBD cartridge hybrid. (Not taking that in)
The spray works in (3) minutes for cervical spine spasms, that would othewise, leave me begging for a bullet.
I figured showing just the spray may not seem as "bad" in their eyes, and a more "pharmacy like" route.

4 levels of my cervical spine are fused + lumbar spine every level has bulging discs with spurring.
Neural foraminal narrowing from C-2-C-6 with spurring.

Before the medical mj program, I was on numerous narcotics and controlled substances.
That doctor has since retired, thus this new place is taking on his patients.
I was able to wean down to just 20mgs from 40mgs oxycodone, and only twice a day from three times, because of vaping & spraying CBDa & THC products.
I figure being up front is going to be my approach, and showing that a colleague on the actual board, approved, MMJ for my exact injuries/surgeries and then some. (PTSD)

Should I ask before I go to the appointment if they would even consider this? If during the course of an appointment, they find out, does it mess up your insurance & will they contact my primary care doctor?
I do not want to burn the bridge of perhaps pleading with my primary care doctor, to prescribe the one med.

Thanks for any feedback~
 
MrBelvedere

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Hi, you can buy some synthetic clean urine online and use that for your Test. Good luck hope u feel better. Depending on the pain clinic doctor they may stop prescribing if you pee dirty. Once you are dirty in their system they will be checking you more often most likely and cut off your prescriptions and mark you as a drug seeker. If that happens, you could always try a new clinic. If you want to play it safe just bring clean pee with you. Would not list your primary care doctor, or as a workaround get a temporary one for the time being if they absolutely must have it. You can also go to CVS and a cannabis drug test kit for 20 bucks if you're wondering if the CBD will show up, but I don't know about that for sure if it's accurate with Cbd. Hopefully your primary care doctor after seeing your records and previous prescriptions will simply keep prescribing it for you. He is not likely to do a P test at all. Only pain management clinics will do a P test normally. HTH

Ps it would probably be a good idea to call your new doctor anonymously and also the PM clinic and tell them you have a medical card and ask them what their policy is, probably they have different policies per place. Hopefully you can call ahead and find a cool one. If you can find the doctor who spoke at the meeting and that's probably your best bet and a sure thing? :)
 
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RootsGal

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Thanks Mr Belvedere. It seems so illogical that they are allowed to do this, after all the work we did, to get this prigram approved.
Nice weekend to you, and again, thanks~
 
GrowGod

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Sure.

It's difficult to describe this system very well without getting somewhat advanced. Some of what I'll say here will be "take my word for it" type stuff--as its not possible to provide adequate justifications without significant prior knowledge of biological systems and biochemistry.

Ultimately there are 3 things I'll discuss here as it regards the action of opiates--there are far more to consider but this will consist of the basics:

1. Opiates mediate a release of dopamine into the brain and activate the brains inherant "reward" system--this is the facet which can lead to addiction.

2. Opiates act in the spinal cord to prevent pain messages from reaching the brain.

3. Opiates act in the brain to change the SUBJECTIVE experience of pain. I.E. a patient wills say they still feel pain but it "doesn't bother them" anymore.


A bit of further discussion on each point:

1. Opiate abuse can damage this reward or "pleasure" system in the brain. The sudden release of so much dopamine can damage both receptors for the dopamine and the pumps which release it. The net result is that an opiate addict who has been addicted for awhile has reduced their "total pleasure capacity" by damaging the system responsible for mediating pleasure. This is like saying a person can only feel, say, 80% as "good" as they used to feel. Subjectively this effect can take the form of anything from fidgetiness, to laziness, to depression.

2. This is the effect which we're commonly after when we use opiates medically speaking. This is an effect known as analgesia--whereby opiates are able to block transmission of pain messages before they even reach the brain.

3. This is a system which is mediated by endorphins which are released by activation of opiate receptors by an opiate.

For 2 and 3:

These two, together, are what cause a big problem for pain management. Each of these systems can be damaged by opiate over-use or abuse. The effect, on each system individually, is to create a "positive" baseline for pain.

Put it this way:

Lets say your body normally produces 200 units of endorphins which mediate pain (as a baseline). When you are injured at this level, you feel the pain--but if you have 200 units and no injury, there is no pain.

Because you are injured you take medicine to increase the amount of endorphins you have, let's say to 400 units.

If you do this for a short period of time, the effect is not appreciable. However, if you do this continuously for a long period of time--the end result is that your "new" baseline is higher than 200 units. While you may experience pain relief at the level of 400 units, over time the amount of relief you experience will diminish--this is an effect commonly known as tolerance.

If, at this point, you quit the medication and go back down to 200 units (if you have been at elevated levels for too long) your body will actually "prefer" a level of 300 units to be at a baseline "no pain" condition--rather than the previous level of 200 units. Of course I choose this 300 number arbitrarily, my only suggestion is to say that the preference will be higher than its original baseline value, but still less than the medicated value.

The result of this "preference" of your body is to experience dull pain throughout the entire body, and acute pain (more severe than its physical condition should cause) anywhere there is legitimate reason for pain. This is commonly known as a major symptom of withdrawal (although there are others). Ultimately the reason for withdrawal, in this sense, is that your body is not capable of producing the amount of "pain blocking" chemical that the medication is able to give you--and your body has become used to having elevated levels and has now decided that anything below that level consists of a pain response.

I.E. the drug hijacks your pain system, and confuses it into believing that it needs more of what you've been giving it in order to not feel pain--and this is known as physical dependence.

In addition to all of the above, the pumps for these "pain relief" chemicals and their respective receptors may ALSO be damaged through abuse of opiates, and the result is that your new ability to produce the chemical is at a value of say 150 units, and your new ability to receive it (at this production level) is even further reduced from this number, say 100 units.

So lets review.

Your body now prefers 300 units or it feels pain.

You can only produce 150. You can only accept 100 (when you are producing 150--without getting too advanced I can't explain why, but the effect here is exponential).

The net result is that, if you originally needed 400 units to fully remove the experience of a given pain response from a baseline of 200 ( i.e. 400-200 = 200 units for pain relief)

You now FEEL pain about as bad in your entire body (300-100 = 200 units of pain), and if the injury responsible for the initial pain hasn't healed you are now experiencing it at a much higher level (200 units needed for pain relief, 100 available--200-100=100 or a 50% increase).

In the end, the pain you can ultimately experience from opiate misuse is much greater and more permanent than that which comes from injuries which can heal--and for injuries which will NEVER heal, the end result can be increased pain in a non-medicated state from a given baseline value before medication is administered.

This is why opiates are generally bad for chronic pain relief unless an absolute cliff in quality of life has been reached. They are best suited to treating pain stemming from injuries which will heal, as a temporary mask.

At low levels almost no ill-effects are observed such as have been described here, but going even a tiny bit beyond the threshold is all that is required to begin the cycle of damage (and it IS a cycle which falls back in on itself once it is begun). That is why it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that opiates be administered under the care of a physician, and it is ALSO the reason why physicians are so touchy about prescribing opiates when other chemicals are present in the system for which the interactions with opiates are not well understood.

The system itself (opiate pain relief) is robust enough, and misunderstood enough, to warrant caution in new territory (scientifically speaking). Opiates act on the brain stem to affect respiration and many other basal functions of the body. Misuse of this stuff can actually kill you simply through this action alone, and its for that reason that if you can show me a doctor who will prescribe you opiates knowing that you'll use MJ--I can show you an unethical doctor.

Even if experience tells us that opiates and MJ do not react badly with one another--experience isn't always right, especially when it doesn't come with careful scientific consideration. Ultimately, a doctor doing this could kill somebody--and a good doctor will know that.

Any questions, just ask.

Also, please understand that this is a SIGNIFICANTLY simplified overlook of the system at hand--the end results are the same no matter how you choose to describe them, however.
This is the most understanding post of how these drugs affect people I have read. thanks squiggle for shizzle
 
GrowGod

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Hi, you can buy some synthetic clean urine online and use that for your Test. Good luck hope u feel better. Depending on the pain clinic doctor they may stop prescribing if you pee dirty. Once you are dirty in their system they will be checking you more often most likely and cut off your prescriptions and mark you as a drug seeker. If that happens, you could always try a new clinic. If you want to play it safe just bring clean pee with you. Would not list your primary care doctor, or as a workaround get a temporary one for the time being if they absolutely must have it. You can also go to CVS and a cannabis drug test kit for 20 bucks if you're wondering if the CBD will show up, but I don't know about that for sure if it's accurate with Cbd. Hopefully your primary care doctor after seeing your records and previous prescriptions will simply keep prescribing it for you. He is not likely to do a P test at all. Only pain management clinics will do a P test normally. HTH

Ps it would probably be a good idea to call your new doctor anonymously and also the PM clinic and tell them you have a medical card and ask them what their policy is, probably they have different policies per place. Hopefully you can call ahead and find a cool one. If you can find the doctor who spoke at the meeting and that's probably your best bet and a sure thing? :)
I thought they wanted to see the drugs they are giving you in your urine without the pot? Unless they sell synthetic urine with OxyContin infused lol
 
G gnome

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I have a ton of Heath issues, hence the medical marijuana card. As if I was not having a
Hard enough time with pain as it is, my pain clinic pee tested me, which I
Thought was no big deal. So when I go in for my next appointment the MA
Says you failed your urine test from THC. I said well i have a card for that
So its not an illegal drug in my system. Long story short they said till I'm "clean"
they will not Prescribe any opiates for me ( which they had not even started yet).

Comments or help on where to turn would be appreciated.

2
Blessing in disguise. Opiates are the devil
 
Seamaiden

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I thought they wanted to see the drugs they are giving you in your urine without the pot? Unless they sell synthetic urine with OxyContin infused lol
To the best of my knowledge, the urine testing is solely to detect THC and no other metabolites. I do not believe they're testing to make sure the medication is effective (lack of pain would be the tell there, right?), nor do I believe they're testing to ensure the patient's life isn't being risked, as we're still seeing plenty of Rx OD deaths in this country.
Blessing in disguise. Opiates are the devil
Until you *really* need them. Try treating kidney stones with weed, get back to me.
 
GrowGod

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To the best of my knowledge, the urine testing is solely to detect THC and no other metabolites. I do not believe they're testing to make sure the medication is effective (lack of pain would be the tell there, right?), nor do I believe they're testing to ensure the patient's life isn't being risked, as we're still seeing plenty of Rx OD deaths in this country.

Until you *really* need them. Try treating kidney stones with weed, get back to me.
I always thought they wanted to see the stuff they are giving you in your urine for one then they know your not just selling them and two that they are not using fake pee to pass the piss test. It's to easy to use synthetic urine, but your probally right because my brother inlaw sucks on those suckers and uses the patches and smokes weed. And he's never had a serious injury except maybe a broken wrist! And honestly I feel sorry for the guy he looks like a ghost everytime I see him.
The shitty thing is if the doc does cut him off he will just go to the methadone clinic.
Makes me sick

On your second quote I totally agree, but that is temporary pain as squiggles stated and that's what they should be used for.
After I had my knee surgery (acl replaced and MCL's repaired" from a snowboarding mistake I was on the crazy pills and after a couple of weeks I still wanted more but the doctor said no here's one last small script you don't need them anymore. LoL and that was the end of it!
I don't understand how a doctor can keep writing scripts year after year because you say your back hurts with no real proof how it happened or surgeries planned to fix the problem.
 
GrowGod

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and have you guys ever seen how a drug addict will clean themselves up for a doctors appointment? They pretend like they are living a normal life so they can get what they want.:)
 
G gnome

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[QUOTE="Seamaiden, post: 1512337,

Until you *really* need them. Try treating kidney stones with weed, get back to me.[/QUOTE] u make a good point there .
 
tobh

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I don't understand how a doctor can keep writing scripts year after year because you say your back hurts with no real proof how it happened or surgeries planned to fix the problem.

Back surgery is hit and miss. My mother is dealing with similar problems to RootGal above and she's been told by a couple of different doctors surgery isn't really an option. The other issue is there's a very low success rate for back surgery patients. Most wind up in worse condition than they started and develop an even higher dependence on opiates.

They get away with writing the scripts because they function in a very particular fashion under heavy scrutiny on the state and federal level. My ex girlfriend worked for a neuro clinics and a couple of pain clinics. One of which in OR was absolutely 100% anti-cannabis due to the fact that the DEA comes down on them hard just for what they do daily. Accepting cannabis users is just a whole new liability. These places also keep track of the scripts they write and will turn down patients without hesitation if they feel the patient is a drug seeker. It's a whole bunch of red tape and CYA.

Some drugs it's not so important to see what the levels are in the urine. On particularly crazy drugs like Lithium, they do fairly regular monitoring. I would guess the opioid metabolites can't be read in accurate levels via urine, a blood draw would probably provide much more accurate levels in that case. With THC, they're simply looking for any level of the metabolites that exceed their cut-off, whatever they choose that to be. Hence why synthetic urine is good for pre-employment but if I were going in for a medical reason, I would rather use my own urine. Never know, they may see something that is indicative of problems from the narcotics.

The problem with pain management is it's something that is perceived by the individual. There's no test to indicate this person is experiencing what they say they are physically. How much of it is mental also has an impact. So these doctors do have to be extremely careful. Some go off the deep end and wind up becoming drug pushers just like the dude on the corner slinging Jack, but that's just how it is. The good ones have a stick in their ass to try and keep out of prison. It's an unfortunate grey market industry that just so happens to make a boat load of dough for the right players. The end users are the ones who suffer. A band aid is not the same as a stitch when it comes to a gaping wound, ya know?
 
RootsGal

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Find a new clinic. My doc did this to me....but I was so fuckin sick of being addicted I simply waved my card in his face and told him to FUCK OFF.....and then made the conscious decision to get off the Keith Richards tour and get BACK INTO LIFE. The pills made my pain WORSE because my head wanted the narcs and my body had to have the narcs....Go figure. Definitely no way to live...and a sure way to live a shorter and more troubled life.

Bottom line...MMJ isn't "legal"....and doctors who prescribe narcos are VERY touchy about it because they don't want the DEA/etc. up their ass because of our weed smoking...

soon you may have to make a choice between the two.....sorry to say. Testing is becoming the norm....as you've seen.....and I think it will only get worse as time goes on.

Be prepared..if you are in a small town the doc may alert all of his doc friends you are out there looking for a script.... Yup. It's a racket....full on.

good luck

s h
HAHAHA...you are why I joined this group.
LOVE YOUR RESPONSE ~
 
RootsGal

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This is the most understanding post of how these drugs affect people I have read. thanks squiggle for shizzle
I have KADIAN ER for "break through pain". I only need it every other month, or two, and I only need to take one.
It settles everything down, and then the 20MG of oxycodone, is enough. Not sure why this is, but it works for me.
He gave me 30, and that will last me for 2 1/2 years!
I was able to convince my primary care doc to keep prescribing oxycodone. I just got the report from another PHYSICAL THERAPY place. Protracted shoulders and my left rib is pushing into my left lung.
I kept saying "it hurts to breathe"...and they all ignored me!
Why does it take so long for them to TELL my primary doctor what they discovered?
He has this whole report and just sat on it from Feb 2015 until yesterday?
Every RIGHT arm test is abnormal too. (I told them I was DROPPING EVERYTHING)
 
RootsGal

RootsGal

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Back surgery is hit and miss. My mother is dealing with similar problems to RootGal above and she's been told by a couple of different doctors surgery isn't really an option. The other issue is there's a very low success rate for back surgery patients. Most wind up in worse condition than they started and develop an even higher dependence on opiates.

They get away with writing the scripts because they function in a very particular fashion under heavy scrutiny on the state and federal level. My ex girlfriend worked for a neuro clinics and a couple of pain clinics. One of which in OR was absolutely 100% anti-cannabis due to the fact that the DEA comes down on them hard just for what they do daily. Accepting cannabis users is just a whole new liability. These places also keep track of the scripts they write and will turn down patients without hesitation if they feel the patient is a drug seeker. It's a whole bunch of red tape and CYA.

Some drugs it's not so important to see what the levels are in the urine. On particularly crazy drugs like Lithium, they do fairly regular monitoring. I would guess the opioid metabolites can't be read in accurate levels via urine, a blood draw would probably provide much more accurate levels in that case. With THC, they're simply looking for any level of the metabolites that exceed their cut-off, whatever they choose that to be. Hence why synthetic urine is good for pre-employment but if I were going in for a medical reason, I would rather use my own urine. Never know, they may see something that is indicative of problems from the narcotics.

The problem with pain management is it's something that is perceived by the individual. There's no test to indicate this person is experiencing what they say they are physically. How much of it is mental also has an impact. So these doctors do have to be extremely careful. Some go off the deep end and wind up becoming drug pushers just like the dude on the corner slinging Jack, but that's just how it is. The good ones have a stick in their ass to try and keep out of prison. It's an unfortunate grey market industry that just so happens to make a boat load of dough for the right players. The end users are the ones who suffer. A band aid is not the same as a stitch when it comes to a gaping wound, ya know?
Back surgery is hit and miss. My mother is dealing with similar problems to RootGal above and she's been told by a couple of different doctors surgery isn't really an option. The other issue is there's a very low success rate for back surgery patients. Most wind up in worse condition than they started and develop an even higher dependence on opiates.

They get away with writing the scripts because they function in a very particular fashion under heavy scrutiny on the state and federal level. My ex girlfriend worked for a neuro clinics and a couple of pain clinics. One of which in OR was absolutely 100% anti-cannabis due to the fact that the DEA comes down on them hard just for what they do daily. Accepting cannabis users is just a whole new liability. These places also keep track of the scripts they write and will turn down patients without hesitation if they feel the patient is a drug seeker. It's a whole bunch of red tape and CYA.

Some drugs it's not so important to see what the levels are in the urine. On particularly crazy drugs like Lithium, they do fairly regular monitoring. I would guess the opioid metabolites can't be read in accurate levels via urine, a blood draw would probably provide much more accurate levels in that case. With THC, they're simply looking for any level of the metabolites that exceed their cut-off, whatever they choose that to be. Hence why synthetic urine is good for pre-employment but if I were going in for a medical reason, I would rather use my own urine. Never know, they may see something that is indicative of problems from the narcotics.

The problem with pain management is it's something that is perceived by the individual. There's no test to indicate this person is experiencing what they say they are physically. How much of it is mental also has an impact. So these doctors do have to be extremely careful. Some go off the deep end and wind up becoming drug pushers just like the dude on the corner slinging Jack, but that's just how it is. The good ones have a stick in their ass to try and keep out of prison. It's an unfortunate grey market industry that just so happens to make a boat load of dough for the right players. The end users are the ones who suffer. A band aid is not the same as a stitch when it comes to a gaping wound, ya know?

I had a 2 level fusion in 2007, and it fell apart. My entire throat was black and blue for 18 months! They just stared at the MRI. MRI's SHOW NOTHING after there is hardware in your neck. It has to be a CT SCAN. I had to tell my primary care doctor this! He said "I did not know.". WOW.
The next neurosurgeon, went in to fuse the levels above, and then HE SAW that I was right! GO FIGURE to listen to the patient?
He had to take out the "wiggly screws" and the "plate that popped off", and fuse all 4 levels.
Now I am having problems and they are using the same exact behavior, fully aware I did not lie and that MRI's are the 'end all be all" of clarifying what it wrong.
Again, he ordered an MRI, and then had to order the CT SCAN, which showed narrowing from C-2-C-6.
Narrowing and spurring, with osteophytes HURT, FYI.
 
RootsGal

RootsGal

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QUACKS . May be hard finding another. I actually have no dr anymore. I went to a naturopathic clinic in seattle where they send aids patients to die and they quit me because of being a mmj patient. Especially after i told them how i got better when they served up pain and death . I simply couldnt believe it being on ssi and permenant disability ! They just chase symptoms anyway . I bet you can do better ! I been off thier shit since 02. Best thing i ever did. I had a dr. then he turned christian and wouldnt do pill or mmj which he signed off on before. Then me and wife were kicked out of his office no charge for asking for diabetic shoes after havnin nerve issues for 25 years. Thier anything but benevolant ! Ya want something done right do it yourself ! Im surprised they didnt take my parking pass too . jeeze.
I support PALESTINE AS WELL.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

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After I had my knee surgery (acl replaced and MCL's repaired" from a snowboarding mistake I was on the crazy pills and after a couple of weeks I still wanted more but the doctor said no here's one last small script you don't need them anymore. LoL and that was the end of it!
Hey! I tore out my ACL, too! I had them use my hamstring, what did you have them use, your bits or cadaver bits? A 10% rejection rate=1 in 10 cadaver replacements failing, and that was too high a rejection risk for me.

I have been bitten by all sorts of things, from rattlesnakes to moray eels to horses to dogs to pigs. I have been kicked. I have been envenomated, I have given birth, I have kidney stones. NOTHING caused me as much pain as the knee. Not a God damned thing. I literally cried my way through all those months of PT, and I still had to go back for a procedure called "manipulation under anesthesia." And I woke up bawling my head off, according to the nurse.

I took myself off the pain pills, but not until after a few months and I quit doing PT. I just couldn't take it anymore, plus, all the old people gathering around me while I cried my way through it? I couldn't take it anymore.
I don't understand how a doctor can keep writing scripts year after year because you say your back hurts with no real proof how it happened or surgeries planned to fix the problem.
That's actually a touchy issue. Women already have a real problem with doctors (and society, generally) dismissing our complaints and health problems, often ascribing them to being "in your head." That's a problem. No one can quantify another's experience, ever. No one can really discount another's experience, either. And, with specific regard to doctors (remember I grew up in that world) and especially surgeons, surgery is often not the answer. They wanted to fuse my spine, even my DO, who was my OB/GYN wanted to fuse my spine or have a TENS unit surgically installed rather than encourage my cannabis use. I find that absolutely extreme, and quite wrong, to say that an invasive procedure is preferable to a prescription.
Back surgery is hit and miss. My mother is dealing with similar problems to RootGal above and she's been told by a couple of different doctors surgery isn't really an option. The other issue is there's a very low success rate for back surgery patients. Most wind up in worse condition than they started and develop an even higher dependence on opiates.
There we go. Although the new (to the US) laser surgeries have piqued my interest, but mine was a workers comp injury, I had to settle out of court and the settlement wouldn't have covered a single day's stay in the hospital. So, my back stays as it is. I flat out refused surgery, though. Worse yet, I know others who took the doc's advised route, and they're as bad as they ever were and are often worse off on many days. This was why I refused fusion. I asked, "What's the post-op prognosis?" Guess what. It was EXACTLY the same as my pre-op prognosis! So I'm gonna just let you cut into me? I don't think so.
 

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