Was Told Kelp Enzymes Break Down Excess Nutes: Truth?

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Perception

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Owner of a local grow supply store gave me a sample of this kelp supplement to help with the hot Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil I'm using (have minor nitrogen toxicity symptoms). His primary argument being that this kelp supplement has enzymes that will help break down excess nutrients.

The high dose of K is reason enough for me to try the kelp (I'm going in week 5 of flowering), but I was curious about the enzyme aspect. Anyone have experience or knowledge about this?
 
Was told kelp enzymes break down excess nutes truth
Prevada 13

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This makes me wounder my self as no body really recommends kelp after first week in flower or stretch.

However, I can see on that proudct that its written veg-Flower

Also wouldnt be the high K low N benificial in late flower?
 
Perception

Perception

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Prevada - that's that I'm thinking. I've read some threads about people using the Canna PK 13/14 during flower, and I've also read things on "they myth of P for flower". Bottom line, it sounds to me like all sources are saying that at least some K during flower is good, and while P might not help, it might not hurt either.
 
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Prevada - that's that I'm thinking. I've read some threads about people using the Canna PK 13/14 during flower, and I've also read things on "they myth of P for flower". Bottom line, it sounds to me like all sources are saying that at least some K during flower is good, and while P might not help, it might not hurt either.

Flower is all about P and K!

Both is very beneficial starting from week 2 upwards.

However, more P is recommended durning week 2 till 6 and more K from week 7 till 9

Example (check aptus extreme schema).

Also there is this proudct that called b'cuzz blossom builder that carrys 1.5 to 1 k to P and it suppose to be used in the last 3 weeks

Conclusion.

Both p and k is very important from week 2 upwards however the ratios change twards more p in early flower then both by week 5 and 6 and more k from there than the P suppose to be best.

When it comes to N

High N first week of flower then reduce it by week 2 flower and some ppl cut completely the N after week 6 of flower but I dont know how to do that with my basic nutes line :)!

Thats at least what I understand till now!

I ask always questions and ppl just watch and ignore and go react on threads that there is a million answer for on internet! Very irritating but at least I know that there is really a few on those forums who use there minds and try to understand and ask not just follow or attack like moffos if you got what I mean!!

Keep it up and keep searching, I also do my best to find some answers!

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It looks like they carry some nice and interesting matrials in there.

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I look to thier feed chart and they stop the kelp after week 3 flower ;)

Best of kuck
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Homesteader

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It is my understanding that certain types of kelp contain varying levels of cytokinin, auxins and gibberellins (although only the cytokinins and auxins are stable) and these phytohormones stimulate cell growth based on their ratios . I also believe some of this is lost when dried and a combination of liquid kelp foliar feed increases the availability.
 
Perception

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Good read homesteader.

What does does it mean when a phytohormone is stable? From the article, it's sounds like giberellins would be the most valuable to a plant that is getting later in the flowering cycle.

gibberellin
any of a class of diterpene plant growth hormones that stimulate shoot elongation, seed germination, and fruit and flower maturation

Although I'm guessing it's not that simple.
 
Homesteader

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What does does it mean when a phytohormone is stable?
I believe the gibberellin doesn't survive the processing of the kelp both in liquid or dried forms for reasons unknown to me. I think the ratios of cytokinin and auxins control lateral growth/elongated at the cell level and both need each other in some amount, the kelp just boosts the levels available and at the correct ratios for growth. I am not positive but I believe that the reversed ratios (or at least a different one) would suppress growth.
 
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Homesteader

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Here is an interesting link I found that helped understand the plant hormones a little better. The growth at lower temps with gibberellin is quite interesting as is the functioning of auxins to elongate cells on shady sides of the plant in order for the terminal bud to follow the sunlight.
  • Auxins produced in the terminal buds suppress the growth of side buds and stimulate root growth. They also affect cell elongation (tropism), apical dominance, and fruit drop or retention.
145-1.jpg

Figure 1. Auxins produced in the rapidly growing terminal buds suppress growth of side buds, giving a young tree a more upright form. As growth rates slow with age, reduction in apical dominance gives the maturing tree a more rounded crown.
  • Gibberellins affect:
  • The rate of cell division
  • Flowering
  • Increase in size of leaves and fruits
  • Seed and bud dormancy
  • Induction of growth at lower temperatures (used to green up lawns 2 to 3 weeks earlier)
  • Cytokinins promote cell division, and influence cell differentiation and aging of leaves.
  • Abscisic acid is considered the “stress” hormone. It inhibits the effects of other hormones to reduce growth during times of plant stress.
 
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Moto

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@Ecompost if you get a moment this may be a thread you enjoy digging into. :)

Interesting stuff for sure.:) Will respond to the thread as soon as I get a moment to write an appropriate reply. :)
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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This makes me wounder my self as no body really recommends kelp after first week in flower or stretch.

However, I can see on that proudct that its written veg-Flower

Also wouldnt be the high K low N benificial in late flower?

Very interesting mate, I like this and thanks for posting so we can see what happens when you use it, what you think the benefits are etc.

To add to this question...

most likely the N is amino form, derived from activity relating from the conversion of carbs via sucrose synthase among Diazotrophs (nitrogen fixing bacteria) present in the kelp. The N would still be a requirement in any biological or organic product, since without it, the conversion from organic to ions will not be made and so our plants wont get any food.
Further, N will be a constant in the cycle of polysaccharide creation, which plays a vital role in bloom of course, as well more obviously at all other growth stages where we grow naturally.
It is true to say that the microbes in this product will almost certainly convert starch and so any related nutrient in this field would be reduced, but I fail to see how adding N fixing microbes would reduce N levels in the media, this is poppycock it seems to me. For sure certain carbs (carbon in the sugars of your bloom nutes for example) would be used by the activity of microbes decaying the organics and elementals as part of the C/N cycles, is this what he (the grow shop guy) meant?
Since the N in Kelp is almost exclusively that fixed by the microbes which live in and on it, you would have a hell of a job trying to remove it. Even if plants dont need N, microbes do and certain types work all day to convert it from the very air we breathe, thats just what they do. Cyanobacteria, like that in Kelp, fix N, so in fact that would be adding N to your media not removing it. This happens anyway, plant or not, and if the plant aint using it, then its in the media, on the bodies of the microbes if you grow bio, if not its leading to pH swings and worse.
So I think we can say rather than it using up nutrients wholesale, it is absorbing the unused ions and storing them on the bodies of said microbes where they wont interfere with your plant, it is also actively consuming carbons, so carbohydrates from grow and bloom feeds.

Kelp itself will not absorb or use nutrients, its the microbes that it stimulates that do that. You can add microbes anytime, its less about when ,more about how and the relative conditions after they are added. EG, lots of K solubizing microbes need high root temps and balanced water air levels to work

I am very interested to hear your thought on this product this buddy, sorry for going on

IMO the better form of N in bloom being Nitrate N during the later stages of a plants cycle. Certain types of N fixers can convert N2 in to either N03- or NH4+ and some do both depending on other conditions, eg the presence of metals for example. It is likely this product suits both forms of N fixation, and so is well suited for both growth and flower cycles, but I think you can get a similar range of NPK using other products that dont include a mass of chitin, next to useless after day 21 bloom. Comfrey, Lambsquarter, Aloe vera, Coconut water, sea water as examples.

Traditionally, Kelp has microbes that modulate our plants via Chitin or Pectin (among others), plants are like clocks to some extent. They release certain exudates (proteins from the roots which allow our plants to feed) and in many cases, these releases by the plant are one time, or they last for a period and then stop. So if we add chitin for example, outside of the range of its active release via root exudates, the plant will not benefit from its presence, but, this is the plant, not the microbes, so perhaps we might be missing the subtle relationships between biology.
Some of the saccharides from microbe interactions can result in an earlier maturing of pistols and I suspect this is the primary reason people dont use Kelp i bloom.
What else is in this product? Where is the high K coming from? Has this been added and from what source?
Does it contain an Potassium solubising microbes?
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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Prevada - that's that I'm thinking. I've read some threads about people using the Canna PK 13/14 during flower, and I've also read things on "they myth of P for flower". Bottom line, it sounds to me like all sources are saying that at least some K during flower is good, and while P might not help, it might not hurt either.
most plants use about 200PPM of P max, if we add 500 what will this mean? P is a nightmare, the more you use, the more you need to use. It is about the water soluble to active to fixed pools and how these three sources interact with each other. Plants have evolved over billions of years to address the Phosphate puzzle, we are just ruining it as per usual. How many insects die per sqM of soil every year? How many plants live and die, how many microbes are there with stored ions of NPK?
I am pretty confident that people will get regulated before they know what we at BOX already know, P is everywhere, and if you have the right biology, you can even get back the fixed pools.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

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I believe the gibberellin doesn't survive the processing of the kelp both in liquid or dried forms for reasons unknown to me. I think the ratios of cytokinin and auxins control lateral growth/elongated at the cell level and both need each other in some amount, the kelp just boosts the levels available and at the correct ratios for growth. I am not positive but I believe that the reversed ratios (or at least a different one) would suppress growth.
its in meal, not in liquid :-) You are right on the hromones, its too much Auxin and Gibbs people worry about I think as this is a growth relating. The cyctokinin is a key part of flowering cycles, perhaps they removed the Aux and Gibbs in this product? Perhaps its Comfrey LOL?
 

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