Was Told Kelp Enzymes Break Down Excess Nutes: Truth?

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Homesteader

Homesteader

I have not used the Sea Crop 16 but think I may try on my next cycle.

The Plant Growth Regulator
For Increased Quality and Marketable Yields

Introduction
SeaCrop16 Liquid Plant Growth Regulator is a concentrated extract made from the seaplant Ascophyllum nodosom, which is harvested from coastal Maine waters.
http://www.noamkelp.com/sc16.html
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

I use azomite but would like to give sea 90 a shot in the future when my bag runs out. Is it apples to oranges? Or are they about equal?
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

yes I like this, not flashy just honest looking. The Key one above has Potassium Hydroxide
and so isnt organic so i would swerve it, esp since you might add Kelp and Potassium Sulfate which would be organic.
Received an email back today from the company saying that Sea crop 16 is OMRI listed. Not sure why it isn't listed on their site, but which product did you find contained potassium sulfate?
 
Perception

Perception

All great info! I've added the Kelp supplement to one of my three plants, along withy a mycorrhizal additive (about 4 days ago), and will monitor it for any differences from the other plants. No differences that I can see yet.
 
Moto

Moto

Received an email back today from the company saying that Sea crop 16 is OMRI listed. Not sure why it isn't listed on their site, but which product did you find contained potassium sulfate?

Here you go friend.. I haven't looked up the restrictions on it due to time frames, but this may help..

It is restricted so maybe why you didn't see on site.. :)

http://www.omri.org/ubersearch/results/SeaCrop16

May be used as a plant growth regulator if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met, which requires the use of preventative, mechanical, physical, and other pest, weed, and disease management practices
 
Homesteader

Homesteader

I think 205.206 means that it is a product that can be used in conjunction with general organic practices as long as all rules are followed. The website hasn't been updated in a few years apparently but it sells for $220 for 5 gallons and has a application rate of 1 litre per acre and has a shelf life of 4 years.

Little shop of horrors comes to mind......
 
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Ecompost

Ecompost

Received an email back today from the company saying that Sea crop 16 is OMRI listed. Not sure why it isn't listed on their site, but which product did you find contained potassium sulfate?
this one below mate has KHydroxide, so non organic, wasnt speaking about Sea-16 I think, sorry I was confusing everyone..this one below..non organic
Owner of a local grow supply store gave me a sample of this kelp supplement to help with the hot Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil I'm using (have minor nitrogen toxicity symptoms). His primary argument being that this kelp supplement has enzymes that will help break down excess nutrients.

The high dose of K is reason enough for me to try the kelp (I'm going in week 5 of flowering), but I was curious about the enzyme aspect. Anyone have experience or knowledge about this?
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
It is true to say that the microbes in this product will almost certainly convert starch and so any related nutrient in this field would be reduced, but I fail to see how adding N fixing microbes would reduce N levels in the media, this is poppycock it seems to me.
I'm stuck on the whole "kelp = enzymes" thing, which is based on my knowledge and understanding not just of kelp, but macroalgal (and a few microalgal) forms. What microbes growing on a saltwater algae would possibly be present, and working, once they're processed into a solution or meal for plant application? I can't think of any that would survive, let alone go to work in terrestrial soil and do anything.

Reading further I see that you're stating that cyanobacteria live within an unnamed kelp species. This is news to me. I'm not claiming to be an expert on macroalgal forms, but I do have access to experts and I worked that reef trade for a long time, edited a book on natural marine fishkeeping and even worked a large public aquarium in SoCal for a while... Do you have citations? I'm not saying outright you're wrong, but this is news to me. A lot of what you're saying about kelp is news to me. For example, kelp (all macroalgal forms) gain their nutrients directly from the water column they're immersed in and photosynthesis, not via microbes such as the zooxanthellae that exist in hermatypic corals.
I use azomite but would like to give sea 90 a shot in the future when my bag runs out. Is it apples to oranges? Or are they about equal?
Not equal. I've used Azomite and I now use Sea-90, including in my aquaponics. For some reason it was using the Sea-90 and not continued applications of Ca that stopped all BER I was experiencing in my soil cultivation. I don't have that problem in my AP system. In fact, I see none of the nutrition-related problems in the AP that I would observe in the soil. I have always been a fish-thing, I think I always will be.

Sea Crop is not the same thing as Sea-90 from what I've been told. Sea Crop has 'ormus'. Sea-90 is seawater that's had most of the NaCl removed. Doesn't even get hot when you drop water onto it the way saltwater mixes do (for making seawater to keep marine animals).
 
Perception

Perception

I'm stuck on the whole "kelp = enzymes" thing, which is based on my knowledge and understanding not just of kelp, but macroalgal (and a few microalgal) forms. What microbes growing on a saltwater algae would possibly be present, and working, once they're processed into a solution or meal for plant application? I can't think of any that would survive, let alone go to work in terrestrial soil and do anything.

Very good point. Curious now... . Granted, the person who told me this may have just been totally wrong.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
You know... I think there was a recent purchase or formation of an outfit called Sea Crop that has nothing to do with the product called by the same name... damn, where'd I see that?
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

I'm stuck on the whole "kelp = enzymes" thing, which is based on my knowledge and understanding not just of kelp, but macroalgal (and a few microalgal) forms. What microbes growing on a saltwater algae would possibly be present, and working, once they're processed into a solution or meal for plant application? I can't think of any that would survive, let alone go to work in terrestrial soil and do anything.

Reading further I see that you're stating that cyanobacteria live within an unnamed kelp species. This is news to me. I'm not claiming to be an expert on macroalgal forms, but I do have access to experts and I worked that reef trade for a long time, edited a book on natural marine fishkeeping and even worked a large public aquarium in SoCal for a while... Do you have citations? I'm not saying outright you're wrong, but this is news to me. A lot of what you're saying about kelp is news to me. For example, kelp (all macroalgal forms) gain their nutrients directly from the water column they're immersed in and photosynthesis, not via microbes such as the zooxanthellae that exist in hermatypic corals.

Not equal. I've used Azomite and I now use Sea-90, including in my aquaponics. For some reason it was using the Sea-90 and not continued applications of Ca that stopped all BER I was experiencing in my soil cultivation. I don't have that problem in my AP system. In fact, I see none of the nutrition-related problems in the AP that I would observe in the soil. I have always been a fish-thing, I think I always will be.

Sea Crop is not the same thing as Sea-90 from what I've been told. Sea Crop has 'ormus'. Sea-90 is seawater that's had most of the NaCl removed. Doesn't even get hot when you drop water onto it the way saltwater mixes do (for making seawater to keep marine animals).

I can only tell you we sampled some European N. Atlantic kelp and found many traces of cyanobacteria among other Algaes found, possibly living as under water leaf dwellers on the columns, possibly whipped up in currents from silt layers beneath kelp forests, may be dispersed bv Cyano algae grazers and or accidentally collected? I honestly cant tell you, only that we have more than a few instances where having sampled kelp meal and fresh kelp materials, we have found traces on both dry and fresh material.
Kelp being seaweed growing in a marine environment itself littered with the presence of Cyano and other symbiotic algal forms, I would imagine it might be hard to live anywhere in the sea and not be exposed to the very many instances of Algae, even if you yourself are a form of higher algae with a posh new brand "seaweed"

I am inclined to disagree with any assumption that Kelp is not benefiting from an extended biome in the very same way our own autotrophic plants do on land, albeit minus a known root structure etc not a requirement when a current washes fresh food to your door perhaps? If we at least consider it relating to the end less discovery of Cyanobac in just about all marine climates and systems. In the corals in particular, the sands and silts holding most other lifeforms together, a myriad of Epiphytic bacteria found in the marine environment, many of which have a role in the production and cycling of Nitrogen for example as well as playing critical roles in defense and stress relief otherwise, I cant see why you would think it so unrealistic that a higher form of Algae might benefit from a lower form, esp when said lower form is a known symbiont for otherwise diverse organisms, sponges, corals etc.
There are known cyano grazers, as with any SFW we know how vital the grazers are in mobilising the matter for higher plants. It is more than likely, Kelp fronds sway in a soup of cyanobacteria and other algaes ( chlorophylls, phycobilins and so on) which we also detected in tests. It might be impossible to collect Kelp without scoping up other Algae and possible phototrophs .

Abstract - Cyanobacteria in Coral Reef Ecosystems: A Review
L. Charpy,1 B. E. Casareto,2 M. J. Langlade,1 and Y. Suzuki2

Cyanobacteria have dominated marine environments and have been reef builders on Earth for more than three million years (myr). Cyanobacteria still play an essential role in modern coral reef ecosystems by forming a major component of epiphytic, epilithic, and endolithic communities as well as of microbial mats. Cyanobacteria are grazed by reef organisms and also provide nitrogen to the coral reef ecosystems through nitrogen fixation. Recently, new unicellular cyanobacteria that express nitrogenase were found in the open ocean and in coral reef lagoons. Furthermore, cyanobacteria are important in calcification and decalcification. All limestone surfaces have a layer of boring algae in which cyanobacteria often play a dominant role. Cyanobacterial symbioses are abundant in coral reefs; the most common hosts are sponges and ascidians. Cyanobacteria use tactics beyond space occupation to inhibit coral recruitment. Cyanobacteria can also form pathogenic microbial consortia in association with other microbes on living coral tissues, causing coral tissue lysis and death, and considerable declines in coral reefs. In deep lagoons, coccoid cyanobacteria are abundant and are grazed by ciliates, heteroflagellates, and the benthic coral reef community. Cyanobacteria produce metabolites that act as attractants for some species and deterrents for some grazers of the reef communities.
 
Seamaiden

Seamaiden

Living dead girl
Yes, none of this is news to me. But what species would continue to live in a terrestrial or even freshwater world? That's the original question being posed that I'm addressing.

I fully believe there is yet more to learn about how various macroalgae live and grow and symbiosis with a critter such as cyanos certainly isn't impossible, I just wonder about its likelihood, especially given the fact that those whose studies are focused on a given specie have not discovered such to be the case (and, what about the zooxanthellae?). :) My own suspicions are that what you've been observing have come along for the ride, so to speak, rather than being an integral part of, if you will. Just an observation.

Are you able to do DNA testing? As I'm sure you're already aware, it is by this method that many new microbes are being discovered and described.
 
Ecompost

Ecompost

Yes, none of this is news to me. But what species would continue to live in a terrestrial or even freshwater world? That's the original question being posed that I'm addressing.

I fully believe there is yet more to learn about how various macroalgae live and grow and symbiosis with a critter such as cyanos certainly isn't impossible, I just wonder about its likelihood, especially given the fact that those whose studies are focused on a given specie have not discovered such to be the case (and, what about the zooxanthellae?). :) My own suspicions are that what you've been observing have come along for the ride, so to speak, rather than being an integral part of, if you will. Just an observation.

Are you able to do DNA testing? As I'm sure you're already aware, it is by this method that many new microbes are being discovered and described.
yes we can DNA test, at cost of course via the local uni here so its worth further investigation for sure, just perhaps not by me with a limited background in sea microbes. In light of certain Algae as pre cursor for land based plants, I dont think it would be inconceivable for strains of phototrophs to be readily assimilated by land based plants. There are multiple strains of blue green algae able to exist outside of salt water conditions, and morphogensis is uncovering some bizarre hidden DNA triggered by alternations in flows of current and charge so lord knows whats truly possible and or probable
and, what about the zooxanthellae? Well its a protozoan and so I guess an essential on microbial loop
I guess in answer to the question, SAR11?
Bull sharks appear to be capable, why not other things whose rate of adaptation might be missed because we like big things more :-)
 
beezleb878

beezleb878

I rarely get over here these days but when I do I always enjoy it. I will speak on this but I am no one special. I do not really care if I am believed or not, that is not my problem.

I say nothing ill here but advice, please forgive if I come off different, I do not mean insult and I speak generically and not towards specific person(s).

Cannabis can be grown in seawater with proper mix of fresh water. The best plants I have seen were in tidal areas in brackish salty and freshwater mix. Tides play a role too.

Kelp is most beneficial in bio-growing as it works its magic best for the ecosystem in the media. It is the ecosystem that you are plant is living off and not so much like in just regular nutrients.00

Kelp is strong stuff and too much can be problematic. If you want to foliar feed it, I suggest mixing 5 parts fulvic acid to 2 parts kelp. Use 5 parts humic acid to 2 parts kelp for regular feeding.

Kelp is often preferred in veg as aspect of molasses (sugar) if used in veg stage can be broken down into aspects that are not beneficial.

Their is a difference in bio growing and regular dirt growing. Though both share some similarities but the differences should be understood. This affects many aspects.

(Go learn this stuff below for real, not a forum read or just a video, loot at 2 to 3 times on each subject from different sources of genuine merit for each subject, do not be lazy, do that and you will know and understand and will be better)
Learn about the life plant cycle,
From seed as water first touches it to the day the plant comes down
Understand what is going on with a seed as it begins to germinate form the moment water touches the seed. Learn about the bacteria living inside the seed when it is dried.
Understand what the tap root is and how it functions in good and bad conditions.
Understanding cloning from beginning cut to rooting in hydro and soil/soil-less medias. know what the root tips are and how they work and what works with them.
Learn about beneficial bacterias and fungus. Know the different families of them and what they do, why and how.
Learn what the plant is doing in veg, humidity, temperature at media level and canopy level is of importance, especially until the plant can shade the media level.
Learn about transition phase: beginning, during and after.
Learn what the biomass is doing during this time and how the plant is interacting with it.
Learn early flower, how the plant builds its structure and the environment that best assist that.
Understand what the biomass is doing during this time and how the plant is interacting with it.
Learn about pollinating and the process from beginning of pollen inoculation to seed formation.
Know what the biomass is doing during this time and how the plant is interacting with it.
Understand the difference between sensi (no seeds) growing from and the same with seeds.
Just follow the above template for sensi buds and for seeded plants to harvest of each.

Now the above was just one part of understanding:
Learn about plant nutrition
Understand what the nutrients do to the plant. (example, what does iron do?)
Learn how that plant gets nutrition. (uptake and foliar)
how bacteria and fungi can play a role in this
Learn what the plant wants during each stage of its development and how effectively and efficiently to do this. (example, learn how different aspects work together such as 5 part fulvic acid and 2 part kelp making each other effective or calcium uptake increased by amino acids)
Learn what type of nutrition is best for your method of growing. Not all nutrition is the same. (example, learn about different nitrogen and why and when to use them.)
Their are many ways to go about this, understand all that apply to your chosen method of growing.

Learn about plant health issues
Lean about pest problems
Understand fungus/mildew problems
Learn nutrient problems from deficiencies to toxicity.


After all that,
Learn about Brix.
Understand the what, why and how of brix.
Learn to measure and manage the brix levels of the plants.

I could give links and make many clones of whatever reading material that was presented and I could act smart all day long and spoon feed information but I will do better and just tell you to do you are own searches. Just search for the terms best needed. Example, search cannabis life cycle of a seed and such.

If you really want to know and understand this plant, just follow the template above and you will know more than most and when you put into practice you will obtain the benefit.

It is no harder and no easier than that.
Happy learning!
 
Perception

Perception

Beezleb878 - Great outline! I'll definitely use this for reference.

Yes, I am definitely taking the thorough learning approach to all of this. The question on this thread was by no means a life-or-death (for the plant :) ) question that I was serious about. Rather just wanted to open some conversation surrounding it. The tidbits I've gleaned from this conversation have launched many many in depth research journeys. I like to experiment and do A/B testing.

Given that, my research has now gone in an entirely new direction from when I started this thread. I'm much more focused on living food webs now, and building living soil, rather than how to adjust nutrient balances.

The plants are doing great though. It's almost harvest time. For the one plant I added kelp to - I see no difference in any way. The kelp was added around July 1st, which was about 4 weeks in to flowering. So, no changes that I can see. BUT, both plants look SUPER healthy :D
 
Perception

Perception

Here is a photo from last night. Almost on week 7 of flowering. Trichomes are just starting to turn opaque from clear. No Amber yet. You can see that the claw leaf never cleared up, but doesn't seem to be hurting them.
 
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