Magic Potions, Elixirs, And Myths & Snakeoils Ha Ha Step Inside If You Dare!!!

[jumpincactus]

eagle 20 is a fungicide, commonly used to treat powdery mildew. I have never heard of anyone using it to treat a mite infestation. I use it to treat incoming clones, as a preventative.

Damn a grower that actually takes preventitive measures with incoming cuts. My hat is off to you man. You get an A for the class today......... Nice

 

[mancdank]

Damn a grower that actually takes preventitive measures with incoming cuts. My hat is off to you man. You get an A for the class today......... Nice

U don't do this as standard if out sourcing cuts ? I'm a big firm beliver in prevention is better than cure :) I make a solution of spray safe and just give em a quick dip and a little shake when I pot it takes seconds to do and the peace of mind it gives is priceless

 

[mancdank]

Oh he was correct that it kills everything, including you if you smoke enough shit sprayed with it!!!

:cry: 1 of my pals used a hotbox in late flower for mite his bud tasted like a box of matches :)

 

[mendel]

Damn a grower that actually takes preventitive measures with incoming cuts. My hat is off to you man. You get an A for the class today......... Nice

I dont like taking chances. Im not much of a risk taker, and am not interested in inheriting other people's problems. An ounce of prevention.........fwiw, I dont bring in many clones. It has to be pretty special to make it thru the door.

 

[mancdank]

I dont like taking chances. Im not much of a risk taker, and am not interested in inheriting other people's problems. An ounce of prevention.........fwiw, I dont bring in many clones. It has to be pretty special to make it thru the door.

Agreed there's enough risk and chance as there is without adding to it :)

 

[epitome]

I dont like taking chances. Im not much of a risk taker, and am not interested in inheriting other people's problems. An ounce of prevention.........fwiw, I dont bring in many clones. It has to be pretty special to make it thru the door.

Do you take any test or precautions to ensure that the eagle20 is not around in flower...does it dissappear? Honest question, I don't use any stuff like that just curious what experienced growers do to "feel" safe using such a preventive measure...

 

[mendel]

When I bring cuts in its generally to make seed. That being said, no, I dont test for residual chems. The clones come in small, just rooted or unrooted, they are isolated and treated, then into veg to be used for cuttings.

 

[GT21]

Damn a grower that actually takes preventitive measures with incoming cuts. My hat is off to you man. You get an A for the class today......... Nice

Hell ya... hahaha i dont trust anyones incoming cuts ... even if you trust them you could pick up a lot of hitch hikers along the way. I have never given anyone bugs or mold because i hose all them turds down first with preventative stuff.

 

[jumpincactus]

U don't do this as standard if out sourcing cuts ? I'm a big firm beliver in prevention is better than cure :) I make a solution of spray safe and just give em a quick dip and a little shake when I pot it takes seconds to do and the peace of mind it gives is priceless

Of course I do, :D I was commending broski and being sarcastic at same time as I know lots of peeps that dont and then wonder why there always jacked up fighting pests.

 

[jumpincactus]

I dont like taking chances. Im not much of a risk taker, and am not interested in inheriting other people's problems. An ounce of prevention.........fwiw, I dont bring in many clones. It has to be pretty special to make it thru the door.

Agree with that.

 

[DrMcSkunkins]

you are missing my point. I dont need to be educated what purpose mychos serve as that is well documented. If you really read and understood the study it shows that a lot of times what you think your getting doesnt even germinate and serve its function. When over 50% of samples tested failed to germinate I would say that there is cause for concern and ways to save money rather than buy something based on it makes me feel good.

Someone here buries rice near the roots of oak trees and puts rice under the leaf litter and harvests their own mycos. Sorry if it was in this thread that I read it.

 

[Ecompost]

No matter what, a certain amount of faith is necessary, just take notice of recent finding in that quarum sensing @jumpincactus @Ecompost is it possible that the host plants pick and choose their myco-allies according to the existing environment/threats/co-benefactors below and above ground? This is what I'm working on as far as the epigenetic symbiosis between my living recycled soil and my bx's and clones coupled with companion gardening of specific phenotypes known to repel spider mites and prevent aphids and powdery mildew and blossomrot and so on....I need to quarum sense some caterpillar predators and grasshopper predators next....talk about anecdotal novelty...so the common denominator is my snake oil piss that I inoculate my wormfarms with....sorry OP I haven't found any studies on this, I'm not that scientific YET. Loving the thread, has anyone mentioned all the substrate filler talc shit in myco products, is that kitty litter talc shit really necessary...if i accidentally posted this in the wrong thread feel free to move it jajajajaja

HAHAHA, we dont use all those fillers mate, we use plants and we use zeolites, nothing more. Are they necessary, well they are a carrier agent for mycos in the case of the plant materials, and in the case of the clays, these are carriers for free ranging, symbiont and associative bacteria. The zeolites are largely Ca based in my case, but they actually contain a full range of TE, required by plants from germination, this also allows for the required levels of Ca to be present to commence any mycrorrization for example.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1046

If this stuff wasnt so valuable, why is there an industry of persons, trying to break the natural cycles, producing plants that will never ever connect to Myco's where they previously have. What is the message in this practice?

On to whose line is it anyway? Well, I and others in the area of this science assume that plants decide, but this also seems to be a dark alley that i am not sure i want to go down. At what point is a plant a plant, or a collection of otherwise organisms, ergo, how much of our own consciousness is is ours alone, or how much is modulated by the needs of the complex communities that makes us? So is this a chicken and egg debate....?
Yes sir I believe it is. Belief is merely faith of course, it is not knowing. I prefer knowing, but this doesnt not exclude me from the desire to want to believe. It would be very convenient if we could just say its like that, and thats the way it is, but this aint a song book, and I aint Jason Nevins.

What I can tell you, After checking many hundreds of sites and samples, glomus intraradices is in the vast majority of cases, seen with the same genera of bacterial groups. The frequency is high. We have removed the presence of certain types of microbes to test for impacts. It appears that without certain actors, the whole process of mycrorrization is plunged in to doubt.

In my head it is still plant, fungus, bacteria, and back again, but the reality may be far more diverse and so resilient too. :-) When I made a root inoculate, I made it using the biomes of bacteria I have found in nature. I didnt just blanket add every man jack microbes we could find.

 

[Ecompost]

you are missing my point. I dont need to be educated what purpose mychos serve as that is well documented. If you really read and understood the study it shows that a lot of times what you think your getting doesnt even germinate and serve its function. When over 50% of samples tested failed to germinate I would say that there is cause for concern and ways to save money rather than buy something based on it makes me feel good.

are we blaming the mycos or the grower here? How many people understand the mechanisms? How many nute companies sell you mycos then a liquid product to insure its failure? How many of you know this is whats happening? Blame is easy, but honestly, is this a true study that has understood the problems? I bet these guys just ruined there own mycorrhization by being a beleiver and not a student. All I can say is this: you boys should buy your nutrients from someone that has a more global interest in soil and plant health, someone who actually grows plants, and not cash and profits :-) I know just the man

 

[Ecompost]

Gosh dang, thank you for clarifying the difference. See we already have one user who believes what he is seeing in mycorrhizal colonization when indeed it isnt.

actinobac is way great man, its not a bad thing by any stretch, in fact i would argue, without actino, mycos wont ever get going period. I cant prove this right now, but I will in time. People want to believe bro, and our forests are proof of the potential so its OK for us to do so.

Phosphorous overuse is the main reason mycos fail imo. Using a Myco and then a P based root stim....I mean wtf? http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fpls.2013.00426/full

 

[Ecompost]

Perhaps the problem is a PICNIC as we used to say in IT. :-)

 

[Psychonaut47]

Perhaps the problem is a PICNIC as we used to say in IT. :)

picnic, this saying sounds important, but I'm not familiar with the saying, do you mean the diversity may be an issue...for the price microherd/bennies should be more host specific unless we can prove that the plant encourages different host specific bacteria/fungus at different phases or in different ecology's depending on the pest/threats/ present or benefactors present....I smell patents in the air

 

[THELORAX802]

Someone here buries rice near the roots of oak trees and puts rice under the leaf litter and harvests their own mycos. Sorry if it was in this thread that I read it.

Its been a coons age since ive seen that video......actually really enjoyed it when i watched it.

 

[Psychonaut47]

Its been a coons age since ive seen that video......actually really enjoyed it when i watched it.

nice post...

HAHAHA, we dont use all those fillers mate, we use plants and we use zeolites, nothing more. Are they necessary, well they are a carrier agent for mycos in the case of the plant materials, and in the case of the clays, these are carriers for free ranging, symbiont and associative bacteria. The zeolites are largely Ca based in my case, but they actually contain a full range of TE, required by plants from germination, this also allows for the required levels of Ca to be present to commence any mycrorrization for example.

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms1046

If this stuff wasnt so valuable, why is there an industry of persons, trying to break the natural cycles, producing plants that will never ever connect to Myco's where they previously have. What is the message in this practice?

On to whose line is it anyway? Well, I and others in the area of this science assume that plants decide, but this also seems to be a dark alley that i am not sure i want to go down. At what point is a plant a plant, or a collection of otherwise organisms, ergo, how much of our own consciousness is is ours alone, or how much is modulated by the needs of the complex communities that makes us? So is this a chicken and egg debate....?
Yes sir I believe it is. Belief is merely faith of course, it is not knowing. I prefer knowing, but this doesnt not exclude me from the desire to want to believe. It would be very convenient if we could just say its like that, and thats the way it is, but this aint a song book, and I aint Jason Nevins.

What I can tell you, After checking many hundreds of sites and samples, glomus intraradices is in the vast majority of cases, seen with the same genera of bacterial groups. The frequency is high. We have removed the presence of certain types of microbes to test for impacts. It appears that without certain actors, the whole process of mycrorrization is plunged in to doubt.

In my head it is still plant, fungus, bacteria, and back again, but the reality may be far more diverse and so resilient too. :) When I made a root inoculate, I made it using the biomes of bacteria I have found in nature. I didnt just blanket add every man jack microbes we could find.

I allways appreciate your feed back...so one farmer here mentioned not innoculating mycos because of the short time the plant will be growing...that's another can of worms, differentiating whether or not it's going to take months and months or not for SOME myco to propagate and grow to a beneficial maturity? Danks in advance.

 

[Freshone]

Here is some more data from a reputable source on the myths and farce used to lighten your wallet.

ODA finds big problems with little organisms

Although a product may promise special ingredients, would you be willing to pay $150 if you knew all it contained was colored water? To help keep this from happening, the Oregon Department of Agriculture’s Fertilizer Program samples and analyzes products as part of its consumer protection role. Most recently, the program has looked at products that contain microorganisms– or at least claim to have them. The results of the analyses are less than encouraging.

“Some products have met the claim and have passed, but the percentage is very low,” says fertilizer enforcement specialist Toby Primbs.

A’s Fertilizer Program is the only one in the nation checking on ingredient claims made for microbiological products. The program began testing products claiming to contain beneficial bacteria and one type of beneficial fungi (Trichoderma) in 2013. Of the 51 products tested for bacteria, only nine met their guarantees. Of the 14 products tested for Trichoderma, none met their guarantees. Last year, the program began testing products with mycorrhizal fungi, which form partnerships with plant roots for mutual benefit. Of the 17 products tested, only three met the guarantees made on the product label.

“Many of these products are being sold at a premium price, yet nobody was looking to see if these microbes were actually in the product,” says ODA fertilizer specialist Matt Haynes. “We had anecdotal information that some products had nothing added despite what was said on the label. Once we started looking, more often than not, the companies making these products were not able to back their claims.”

As an example, a one-liter retail container of a fertilizer product that claimed to have both fungi and bacteria sold for $87.50, yet testing did not indicate the presence any of the microbes.

For the past three years, ODA has sampled end use products claiming to have these living organisms– whether they were found in bags of potting soil purchased at a garden center, taken off the shelf of a hydroponics store, or pulled from a 275 gallon container at a commercial fertilizer dealer.

“For us, it’s basic consumer protection, and the consumer isn’t just a homeowner or a farmer– it’s also the Oregon manufacturer who is buying these microbial ingredients to add to their product,” says Don Wolf, another ODA fertilizer specialist.

Once samples are collected, ODA’s Plant Health Laboratory does standard microbiology work to determine if the organisms exist at viable concentration as claimed on the label, or even if they exist in the product at all. In some cases, the organisms might have been there at one time but die off before the expiration date listed on the product label.

ODA’s Fertilizer Program has not been able to determine if intentional fraud has taken place or if the microbial products have simply been mishandled.

“There are many steps along the way before it gets to the end user,” says Primbs. “There could be problems with the original batch, with the mixing of the product, maybe it wasn’t stored correctly. These are living organisms, so a lot of them won’t do well under high heat or without food for long periods of time.”

Microorganisms are very important to agriculture. A spoonful of fertile soil typically has at least 50 billion microbes of 10,000 different species. Many of these bacteria and fungi are critical to vibrant plant growth, some help process nutrients to feed plants, while others may form partnerships with plant roots, providing raw materials and water to the plant, in return for carbohydrates.

Microbial inoculants aren’t new to agriculture. Since the nineteenth century, researchers have isolated microbes from the soil and plants with the goal of increasing crop production. Legume inoculants, to increase the growth of nitrogen-fixing bacteria so plants can grow their own nitrogen fertilizer, have been commercially available to farmers since 1897. Today, researchers have identified species containing a variety of characteristics with the potential to be even more useful to agriculture. Over the past several years, there has been great interest in, and a rapidly growing market for, microbiological ingredients. At least one published report estimates this rapidly developing market will be worth more than $4.45 billion worldwide by 2019.

il now, the results of the product sampling and analysis have been shared with the companies that produced them, as part of an educational approach undertaken by ODA.

“We have had a wide range of reactions by those who find out their product doesn’t meet the specifications that are claimed,” says Wolf. “Some are very concerned, very responsible, and want to do things right. Others seem to have only an interest in profitability and the bottom line.”

The educational approach is now transitioning to a regulatory one. Moving forward, any fertilizer product containing microorganisms found deficient by ODA will face enforcement action, ranging from a notice of violation to a potential civil penalty. The basis for ODA’s action is that the product would be deemed mislabeled if it can’t meet its claim.

“We hope these companies will look at their process and their final end use product so that they can ensure the customer is getting what is claimed on the label, all the way until the expiration date,” says Primbs.

ODA’s three-person Fertilizer Program continues to look at products for chemical and mineral content, also verifying label claims. With 10,000 fertilizer products registered by ODA for use in Oregon, and about 700 specifically containing microbial material, there is more than enough to keep the program busy. A dozen years ago, ODA registered only about 4,000 products and the program consisted of two people to cover the entire state. While the number of products grows in proportion to increased demand, the consumer protection function of the Fertilizer Program will only become more important.

ODA protects consumers through programs for food safety, animal health, pesticide use, invasive species, and weights and measures standards, among others. Add the fertilizer program to the list.

For more information, contact Toby Primbs, Don Wolf, or Matt Haynes at (503) 986-4635.

I'm not sure how reliable this ODA test was,if I remember correctly @Capulator was caught up in this with his OG Biowar,ODA claimed no love and independent university studies refuted their findings,maybe cap will chime in?

 

[THELORAX802]

Did i overlook it or does he mention which one tested that actually had what it claimed, what was its name? I'd love to follow this please and thankyou.