EventHorizan
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sure dont have none
Council Of First Knowledge, Jedi Temple Training Facility
Council Of First Knowledge, Jedi Temple Training Facility
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Wisher619
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even with the bump up in ec
I would lower the C02 to corolate with your feeding ec
so if you are at 750 ppm so should your C02
see CO2 directly corolates with nutrient uptake
more C02 more nutrients
that is why when you were first starting out and you would hear people say "yeah bro I feed 1500ppm mid flower
what they arent telling you is they are running 1500ppm CO2
Maximizing genetic potential
and they end up with those pic of giant flowers
but you have to start off easy
and work them up to that @ full flower
basically you should be hitting 1000ppm at day of flip
EventHorizan
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Sounds good! Now I research.. then I change :)
I get back to you in 45 mins ......
EventHorizan
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you can start c02 whenever you would like, its just air for you're plants (its what they breath). i would keep you're ppms equal to the ppms you're feeding (i cap my c02 ppms at about 1500-1600) then last two weeks when you flush kill the generator.
Exactly what you said.....
EventHorizan
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Ok
and im gonna use my last feeding of 1 ec...
Tomm I will raise it to 1.5 with new res
Im gonna google if I can foliar with my GH Calimag
just for tonight with the 1 ec feeding....
lol since its being taken in by the stomata,
ph dont matter right?
and I can use tap ?
1ml per gal?
I never could find much good info on c02 ppm, im still looking, but i moved it down to 750 just now.
Ok i put my c02 750
and im gonna use my last feeding of 1 ec...
Tomm I will raise it to 1.5 with new res
Im gonna google if I can foliar with my GH Calimag
just for tonight with the 1 ec feeding....
lol since its being taken in by the stomata,
ph dont matter right?
and I can use tap ?
1ml per gal?
I never could find much good info on c02 ppm, im still looking, but i moved it down to 750 just now.
Wisher619
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so I would just let the plant chill for now with no spray
give it a week with the higher ec and equal CO2 and see what it does
see with the higher CO2 and max light it needs max nuts for said CO2 in order to convert properly
high CO2 and low ec means that the plant is depleating the ec faster than you are supplying it
EventHorizan
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I totally understand!
So I used the last of my 1 ec feed just now...
I didnt foliar because I couldnt find a dosage.
I dont want to cause a tox either,
so I follow your advice...
They look good!
Just look like they are a little tired, like when after you water.
I just looked at them and they doing all right..
Im just being overly aware and trying to head a problem off before it becomes a problem.
I am however gonna have to come up with a new setup as they are getting bigger quicker..
I dont have head room so my only choice is to put deep saucers down for each one
and put something in it for the pot to sit on up off the saucers for run off, and I will just have to suck up the run off with the shopvac every night which kinda deletes the reason for having automated watering, but it is what it is till this run is over..
EventHorizan
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Agree with this?
My goal: to try and kill the myth that 1,500 ppm CO2 is ideal. I want to get it known in the cannabis world, that it's important to not use > ~1,100-1,200 ppm CO2.
In short, the claim that 1,500 ppm CO2 is ideal for cannabis is total hogwash. I challenged anyone a while ago to find a single scientific study showing 1,500 ppm is ideal for C3 flowering plants, or even just to find the reasons why it's claimed 1,500 ppm is ideal in the cannabis world. I assume the myth (yet another!) came from the liked of Ed Rosenthall or George Cervantes or Mel Frank, etc.
If there is interest in the 'whys' I can explain why it's important to not use > 1,200 ppm, ideally we would use ~1,000-1,100 ppm. The effects from "super-optimal" CO2 concentrations range from reduced rate of photosynthesis, to reduced yield, reduced root growth, reduced stomatal openness, increased photorespiration, etc. In other words, nothing good.
The reason why we should ideally use ~1,000 ppm, is for most C3 species (and C4 I think), CO2 "saturation" occurs at ~1,000-1,100 ppm. That means more than ~1,100 ppm (up to 1,200 ppm) isn't going to help the plants, it's only going to waste CO2 and hinder plants if CO2 is about > 1,200 ppm.
The reason why we should ideally use < 1,200 ppm CO2 is the effect high (super-optimal) CO2 has on "Rubisco activase", the substance that turns inactive "Rubisco" into active Rubsico. At CO2 > ~1,200 (and temp > ~89'F) Rubsico activase is inhibited, which in turn inhibits conversion of inactive Rubisco into active Rubisco. And active Rubisco is needed for high rate of photosynthesis, which in turn leads to high growth rates and high yield, etc.
So, to sum up: It's important to keep CO2 below ~1,200, and to be safe and most efficient, keep CO2 at ~1,000 ppm. Night time CO2 should be < ~500 ppm, unless one is trying to reduce dark respiration and stretch, then upwards of 750 ppm can be used for short periods (otherwise leaf chlorosis can set in).
I can fully cite all those claims, if anyone wants to read the academic lit. For now, here are a few good studies looking at C3 wheat and rice plants:
CO2 crop growth enhancement and toxicity in wheat and rice
Bugbee B, Spanarkel B, Johnson S, Monje O, Koerner G.
Adv Space Res. 1994 Nov;14(11):257-67.
Quote:
Abstract
The effects of elevated CO2 on plant growth are reviewed and the implications for crop yields in regenerative systems are discussed. There is considerable theoretical and experimental evidence indicating that the beneficial effects of CO2 are saturated at about 0.12% CO2 in air. However, CO2 can easily rise above 1% of the total gas in a closed system, and we have thus studied continuous exposure to CO2 levels as high as 2%. Elevating CO2 from 340 to 1200 micromoles mol-1 can increase the seed yield of wheat and rice by 30 to 40%; unfortunately, further CO2 elevation to 2500 micromoles mol-1 (0.25%) has consistently reduced yield by 25% compared to plants grown at 1200 micromoles mol-1; fortunately, there was only an additional 10% decrease in yield as the CO2 level was further elevated to 2% (20,000 micromoles mol-1). Yield increases in both rice and wheat were primarily the result of increased number of heads per m2, with minor effects on seed number per head and seed size. Yield increases were greatest in the highest photosynthetic photon flux. We used photosynthetic gas exchange to analyze CO2 effects on radiation interception, canopy quantum yield, and canopy carbon use efficiency. We were surprised to find that radiation interception during early growth was not improved by elevated CO2. As expected, CO2 increased quantum yield, but there was also a small increase in carbon use efficiency. Super-optimal CO2 levels did not reduce vegetative growth, but decreased seed set and thus yield. The reduced seed set is not visually apparent until final yield is measured. The physiological mechanism underlying CO2 toxicity is not yet known, but elevated CO2 levels (0.1 to 1% CO2) increase ethylene synthesis in some plants and ethylene is a potent inhibitor of seed set in wheat.
Super-optimal CO2 reduces wheat yield in growth chamber and greenhouse environments
Grotenhuis T, Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Adv Space Res. 1997;20(10):1901-4.
Quote:
Abstract
Seven growth chamber trials (six replicate trials using 0.035, 0.12, and 0.25% CO2 in air and one trial using 0.12, 0.80, and 2.0% CO2 in air) and three replicate greenhouse trials (0.035, 0.10, 0.18, 0.26, 0.50, and 1.0% CO2 in air) compare the effects of super-optimal CO2 on the seed yield, harvest index, and vegetative growth rate of wheat (Triticum aestivum L. cvs. USU-Apogee and Veery-10). Plants in the growth chamber trials were grown hydroponically under fluorescent lamps, while the greenhouse trials were grown under sunlight and high pressure sodium lamps and in soilless media. Plants in the greenhouse trials responded similarly to those in the growth chamber trials; maximum yields occurred near 0.10 and 0.12% CO2 and decreased significantly thereafter. This research indicates that the toxic effects of elevated CO2 are not specific to only one environment and has important implications for the design of bio-regenerative life support systems in space, and for the future of terrestrial agriculture.
Very high CO2 reduces photosynthesis, dark respiration and yield in wheat
Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Ann Bot. 1997 Oct;80(4):539-46.
Quote:
Abstract
Although terrestrial CO2 concentrations, [CO2] are not expected to reach 1000 micromoles mol-1 for many decades, CO2 levels in closed systems such as growth chambers and glasshouses, can easily exceed this concentration. CO2 levels in life support systems in space can exceed 10000 micromoles mol-1 (1%). Here we studied the effect of six CO2 concentrations, from ambient up to 10000 micromoles mol-1, on seed yield, growth and gas exchange of two wheat cultivars (USU-Apogee and Veery-l0). Elevating [CO2] from 350 to 1000 micromoles mol-1 increased seed yield (by 33%), vegetative biomass (by 25%) and number of heads m-2 (by 34%) of wheat plants. Elevation of [CO2] from 1000 to 10000 micromoles mol-1 decreased seed yield (by 37%), harvest index (by 14%), mass per seed (by 9%) and number of seeds per head (by 29%). This very high [CO2] had a negligible, non-significant effect on vegetative biomass, number of heads m-2 and seed mass per head. A sharp decrease in seed yield, harvest index and seeds per head occurred by elevating [CO2] from 1000 to 2600 micromoles mol-1. Further elevation of [CO2] from 2600 to 10000 micromoles mol-1 caused a further but smaller decrease. The effect of CO2 on both wheat cultivars was similar for all growth parameters. Similarly there were no differences in the response to high [CO2] between wheat grown hydroponically in growth chambers under fluorescent lights and those grown in soilless media in a glasshouse under sunlight and high pressure sodium lamps. There was no correlation between high [CO2] and ethylene production by flag leaves or by wheat heads. Therefore, the reduction in seed set in wheat plants is not mediated by ethylene. The photosynthetic rate of whole wheat plants was 8% lower and dark respiration of the wheat heads 25% lower when exposed to 2600 micromoles mol-1 CO2 compared to ambient [CO2]. It is concluded that the reduction in the seed set can be mainly explained by the reduction in the dark respiration in wheat heads, when most of the respiration is functional and is needed for seed development.
Super-optimal CO2 reduces seed yield but not vegetative growth in wheat
Grotenhuis TP, Bugbee B.
Crop Sci. 1997 Jul-Aug;37:1215-22.
Quote:
Abstract
Although terrestrial atmospheric CO2 levels will not reach 1000 micromoles mol-1 (0.1%) for decades, CO2 levels in growth chambers and greenhouses routinely exceed that concentration. CO2 levels in life support systems in space can exceed 10000 micromoles mol-1(1%). Numerous studies have examined CO2 effects up to 1000 micromoles mol-1, but biochemical measurements indicate that the beneficial effects of CO2 can continue beyond this concentration. We studied the effects of near-optimal (approximately 1200 micromoles mol-1) and super-optimal CO2 levels (2400 micromoles mol-1) on yield of two cultivars of hydroponically grown wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) in 12 trials in growth chambers. Increasing CO2 from sub-optimal to near-optimal (350-1200 micromoles mol-1) increased vegetative growth by 25% and seed yield by 15% in both cultivars. Yield increases were primarily the result of an increased number of heads per square meter. Further elevation of CO2 to 2500 micromoles mol-1 reduced seed yield by 22% (P < 0.001) in cv. Veery-10 and by 15% (P < 0.001) in cv. USU-Apogee. Super-optimal CO2 did not decrease the number of heads per square meter, but reduced seeds per head by 10% and mass per seed by 11%. The toxic effect of CO2 was similar over a range of light levels from half to full sunlight. Subsequent trials revealed that super-optimal CO2 during the interval between 2 wk before and after anthesis mimicked the effect of constant super-optimal CO2. Furthermore, near-optimal CO2 during the same interval mimicked the effect of constant near-optimal CO2. Nutrient concentration of leaves and heads was not affected by CO2. These results suggest that super-optimal CO2 inhibits some process that occurs near the time of seed set resulting in decreased seed set, seed mass, and yield.
My goal: to try and kill the myth that 1,500 ppm CO2 is ideal. I want to get it known in the cannabis world, that it's important to not use > ~1,100-1,200 ppm CO2.
In short, the claim that 1,500 ppm CO2 is ideal for cannabis is total hogwash. I challenged anyone a while ago to find a single scientific study showing 1,500 ppm is ideal for C3 flowering plants, or even just to find the reasons why it's claimed 1,500 ppm is ideal in the cannabis world. I assume the myth (yet another!) came from the liked of Ed Rosenthall or George Cervantes or Mel Frank, etc.
If there is interest in the 'whys' I can explain why it's important to not use > 1,200 ppm, ideally we would use ~1,000-1,100 ppm. The effects from "super-optimal" CO2 concentrations range from reduced rate of photosynthesis, to reduced yield, reduced root growth, reduced stomatal openness, increased photorespiration, etc. In other words, nothing good.
The reason why we should ideally use ~1,000 ppm, is for most C3 species (and C4 I think), CO2 "saturation" occurs at ~1,000-1,100 ppm. That means more than ~1,100 ppm (up to 1,200 ppm) isn't going to help the plants, it's only going to waste CO2 and hinder plants if CO2 is about > 1,200 ppm.
The reason why we should ideally use < 1,200 ppm CO2 is the effect high (super-optimal) CO2 has on "Rubisco activase", the substance that turns inactive "Rubisco" into active Rubsico. At CO2 > ~1,200 (and temp > ~89'F) Rubsico activase is inhibited, which in turn inhibits conversion of inactive Rubisco into active Rubisco. And active Rubisco is needed for high rate of photosynthesis, which in turn leads to high growth rates and high yield, etc.
So, to sum up: It's important to keep CO2 below ~1,200, and to be safe and most efficient, keep CO2 at ~1,000 ppm. Night time CO2 should be < ~500 ppm, unless one is trying to reduce dark respiration and stretch, then upwards of 750 ppm can be used for short periods (otherwise leaf chlorosis can set in).
I can fully cite all those claims, if anyone wants to read the academic lit. For now, here are a few good studies looking at C3 wheat and rice plants:
- Note: 0.0001% CO2 = 1 ppm CO2 = 1 micromole mol^-1 CO2 (mol^-1 is written as "mol-1" below)
CO2 crop growth enhancement and toxicity in wheat and rice
Bugbee B, Spanarkel B, Johnson S, Monje O, Koerner G.
Adv Space Res. 1994 Nov;14(11):257-67.
Quote:
Abstract
The effects of elevated CO2 on plant growth are reviewed and the implications for crop yields in regenerative systems are discussed. There is considerable theoretical and experimental evidence indicating that the beneficial effects of CO2 are saturated at about 0.12% CO2 in air. However, CO2 can easily rise above 1% of the total gas in a closed system, and we have thus studied continuous exposure to CO2 levels as high as 2%. Elevating CO2 from 340 to 1200 micromoles mol-1 can increase the seed yield of wheat and rice by 30 to 40%; unfortunately, further CO2 elevation to 2500 micromoles mol-1 (0.25%) has consistently reduced yield by 25% compared to plants grown at 1200 micromoles mol-1; fortunately, there was only an additional 10% decrease in yield as the CO2 level was further elevated to 2% (20,000 micromoles mol-1). Yield increases in both rice and wheat were primarily the result of increased number of heads per m2, with minor effects on seed number per head and seed size. Yield increases were greatest in the highest photosynthetic photon flux. We used photosynthetic gas exchange to analyze CO2 effects on radiation interception, canopy quantum yield, and canopy carbon use efficiency. We were surprised to find that radiation interception during early growth was not improved by elevated CO2. As expected, CO2 increased quantum yield, but there was also a small increase in carbon use efficiency. Super-optimal CO2 levels did not reduce vegetative growth, but decreased seed set and thus yield. The reduced seed set is not visually apparent until final yield is measured. The physiological mechanism underlying CO2 toxicity is not yet known, but elevated CO2 levels (0.1 to 1% CO2) increase ethylene synthesis in some plants and ethylene is a potent inhibitor of seed set in wheat.
Super-optimal CO2 reduces wheat yield in growth chamber and greenhouse environments
Grotenhuis T, Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Adv Space Res. 1997;20(10):1901-4.
Quote:
Abstract
Seven growth chamber trials (six replicate trials using 0.035, 0.12, and 0.25% CO2 in air and one trial using 0.12, 0.80, and 2.0% CO2 in air) and three replicate greenhouse trials (0.035, 0.10, 0.18, 0.26, 0.50, and 1.0% CO2 in air) compare the effects of super-optimal CO2 on the seed yield, harvest index, and vegetative growth rate of wheat (Triticum aestivum L. cvs. USU-Apogee and Veery-10). Plants in the growth chamber trials were grown hydroponically under fluorescent lamps, while the greenhouse trials were grown under sunlight and high pressure sodium lamps and in soilless media. Plants in the greenhouse trials responded similarly to those in the growth chamber trials; maximum yields occurred near 0.10 and 0.12% CO2 and decreased significantly thereafter. This research indicates that the toxic effects of elevated CO2 are not specific to only one environment and has important implications for the design of bio-regenerative life support systems in space, and for the future of terrestrial agriculture.
Very high CO2 reduces photosynthesis, dark respiration and yield in wheat
Reuveni J, Bugbee B.
Ann Bot. 1997 Oct;80(4):539-46.
Quote:
Abstract
Although terrestrial CO2 concentrations, [CO2] are not expected to reach 1000 micromoles mol-1 for many decades, CO2 levels in closed systems such as growth chambers and glasshouses, can easily exceed this concentration. CO2 levels in life support systems in space can exceed 10000 micromoles mol-1 (1%). Here we studied the effect of six CO2 concentrations, from ambient up to 10000 micromoles mol-1, on seed yield, growth and gas exchange of two wheat cultivars (USU-Apogee and Veery-l0). Elevating [CO2] from 350 to 1000 micromoles mol-1 increased seed yield (by 33%), vegetative biomass (by 25%) and number of heads m-2 (by 34%) of wheat plants. Elevation of [CO2] from 1000 to 10000 micromoles mol-1 decreased seed yield (by 37%), harvest index (by 14%), mass per seed (by 9%) and number of seeds per head (by 29%). This very high [CO2] had a negligible, non-significant effect on vegetative biomass, number of heads m-2 and seed mass per head. A sharp decrease in seed yield, harvest index and seeds per head occurred by elevating [CO2] from 1000 to 2600 micromoles mol-1. Further elevation of [CO2] from 2600 to 10000 micromoles mol-1 caused a further but smaller decrease. The effect of CO2 on both wheat cultivars was similar for all growth parameters. Similarly there were no differences in the response to high [CO2] between wheat grown hydroponically in growth chambers under fluorescent lights and those grown in soilless media in a glasshouse under sunlight and high pressure sodium lamps. There was no correlation between high [CO2] and ethylene production by flag leaves or by wheat heads. Therefore, the reduction in seed set in wheat plants is not mediated by ethylene. The photosynthetic rate of whole wheat plants was 8% lower and dark respiration of the wheat heads 25% lower when exposed to 2600 micromoles mol-1 CO2 compared to ambient [CO2]. It is concluded that the reduction in the seed set can be mainly explained by the reduction in the dark respiration in wheat heads, when most of the respiration is functional and is needed for seed development.
Super-optimal CO2 reduces seed yield but not vegetative growth in wheat
Grotenhuis TP, Bugbee B.
Crop Sci. 1997 Jul-Aug;37:1215-22.
Quote:
Abstract
Although terrestrial atmospheric CO2 levels will not reach 1000 micromoles mol-1 (0.1%) for decades, CO2 levels in growth chambers and greenhouses routinely exceed that concentration. CO2 levels in life support systems in space can exceed 10000 micromoles mol-1(1%). Numerous studies have examined CO2 effects up to 1000 micromoles mol-1, but biochemical measurements indicate that the beneficial effects of CO2 can continue beyond this concentration. We studied the effects of near-optimal (approximately 1200 micromoles mol-1) and super-optimal CO2 levels (2400 micromoles mol-1) on yield of two cultivars of hydroponically grown wheat (Triticum aestivum L.) in 12 trials in growth chambers. Increasing CO2 from sub-optimal to near-optimal (350-1200 micromoles mol-1) increased vegetative growth by 25% and seed yield by 15% in both cultivars. Yield increases were primarily the result of an increased number of heads per square meter. Further elevation of CO2 to 2500 micromoles mol-1 reduced seed yield by 22% (P < 0.001) in cv. Veery-10 and by 15% (P < 0.001) in cv. USU-Apogee. Super-optimal CO2 did not decrease the number of heads per square meter, but reduced seeds per head by 10% and mass per seed by 11%. The toxic effect of CO2 was similar over a range of light levels from half to full sunlight. Subsequent trials revealed that super-optimal CO2 during the interval between 2 wk before and after anthesis mimicked the effect of constant super-optimal CO2. Furthermore, near-optimal CO2 during the same interval mimicked the effect of constant near-optimal CO2. Nutrient concentration of leaves and heads was not affected by CO2. These results suggest that super-optimal CO2 inhibits some process that occurs near the time of seed set resulting in decreased seed set, seed mass, and yield.
EventHorizan
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I found this lil chart :)
EventHorizan
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They recommend these numbers in the UC, but not for other medians btw....
I found this lil chart :)
EventHorizan
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That makes so much sense!
Wisher619
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that is a weird chart
kinda makes no sense
I believe in high CO2 in seedlings and cuttings
but they like peak out and then start dropping it
maybe they know something that everyone else dosnt
Wisher619
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I have read however that you should keep your temps between 85-95f and RH between 40-50% for CO2 to be effective
the heat makes sense but not the RH
the heat makes sense but not the RH
EventHorizan
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Well this is going downhill quicker than my dream to become a billionaire... Tore the drip system out, because i cant manurver around 16 drip lines... It may work for a few plants, but not 16 in a tent.. Im not happy with the tent. Im not happy with the plants... Im just not happy with this... I know what the freaking problem is... The roots need 02, and they aint getting enough. The coco I BELIEVE is just not drying out enough. Im not watering them tonight, however I did turn the light down to 400w, and foliared with 48 hr bubled ogbiowar root + foliar pack tea.
So we see how they look tomm.....
Im beginning to think I should of stayed with the watering every other day! That is when they looked the best!
Im gonna say the first 2 weeks, every other day, til you get a good root ball going...
Idgaf what they say about coco, I HAVE OVER WATERED THESE THINGS AND HAVE STUNTED MY ROOTS SLIGHTLY BECAUSE OF IT!
Now to rectify my mistake without causing a lockout while drying my median..
So we see how they look tomm.....
Im beginning to think I should of stayed with the watering every other day! That is when they looked the best!
Im gonna say the first 2 weeks, every other day, til you get a good root ball going...
Idgaf what they say about coco, I HAVE OVER WATERED THESE THINGS AND HAVE STUNTED MY ROOTS SLIGHTLY BECAUSE OF IT!
Now to rectify my mistake without causing a lockout while drying my median..
incogneato
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What kind of coco are you using brotha?
EventHorizan
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Farmer P
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That sux it didn't work out with the automated watering. Maybe add more perlite next time if you want it to dry out faster. I usually water every other day just because I'm lazy, but I never noticed any ill effects when I did water every day. Do you lift them to see how heavy they are before watering to see how much they've consumed?. I decided I don't have room for an automated system so I'm also stuck with hand watering. :cry: I'm sure you'll get them back on track.
EventHorizan
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I added the watering system to early, esp with a timer that only deals in mins... Now if I could of went 30 secs for drip, maybe...
And once the roots fill out the pot then its fine, but i should of nursed the feedings along for another week.. There not horrible or nothing, just not praying like they should be. Maybe the 600 has been a lil hard on them too... They look overwatered and maybe shocked a lil from the light change and from the vigorous week they just went thru...
Wisher619
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I hate do disagree with you but on this one I must
I believe adding the CO2 is what is effin up your system
something to do with the enviroment
remember I sat plants in coco literally in a tray of nutrients.....and never let the coco dry out and never had ill effects
as a matter of fact I am doing that now
there are many factors that contribute to roots not growing
watering coco every day isnt one of them
usually the main contributor of plants not taking up water or nutrients
respiration
if the plant isnt respiring then the plant dosnt need to eat or drink
my Veg plants are sitting @81f 62%RH
I know that dosnt sit in the VPD range but I can sit my plants in nutrients and they are perfectly fine
so there may be multiple factors but watering coco every day I dont think is one
but again that is just My Opinion
the only time I have ever had problems....besides Veg+Bloom
is letting my coco dry
Wisher619
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