Clones or seeds for outside

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

What's a viroid ? And why are clones more likely to have them ?

Viroids are similar to a virus, except they don't have a protein coat, dudding is an example.

The more time a plant is alive, it just has more time to accumulate these issues, whether its a mother being kept alive or a clone from a clone from a clone situation. A mother can carry the dudding viroid without showing symptoms, while producing dudded clones.

Some pathogens can be passed down by seed also, but in my understanding it is less common.

 

[One drop]

Do both then make up your own mind .....

 

[dire wolf]

Do both then make up your own mind .....

Exactly what I was about to say , and you will learn a lot along the way ....

 

[dire wolf]

Viroids are similar to a virus, except they don't have a protein coat, dudding is an example.

The more time a plant is alive, it just has more time to accumulate these issues, whether its a mother being kept alive or a clone from a clone from a clone situation. A mother can carry the dudding viroid without showing symptoms, while producing dudded clones.

Some pathogens can be passed down by seed also, but in my understanding it is less common.

So you avoid clones ?

 

[One drop]

Exactly what I was about to say , and you will learn a lot along the way ....

You know it DW ..

 

[dire wolf]

Viroids are similar to a virus, except they don't have a protein coat, dudding is an example.

The more time a plant is alive, it just has more time to accumulate these issues, whether its a mother being kept alive or a clone from a clone from a clone situation. A mother can carry the dudding viroid without showing symptoms, while producing dudded clones.

Some pathogens can be passed down by seed also, but in my understanding it is less common.

Seems like all of the terminology you use is gathered from " dark heart " nursery , who's business is selling clones ....so that's ironic

 

[Anthem]

Dark Heart is known in Cali for pollen chucking and word it he does not even do that himself.

 

[dire wolf]

Maybe vitoids are a Kevin Jodry marketing strategy

 

[dire wolf]

Dark Heart is known in Cali for pollen chucking and word it he does not even do that himself.

Yea , I don't know much about what's going on in Cali
But I'm sure you can find some nice clones from someone ....
I like both seed and clone grows

 

[linde]

You don't smoke the tap root. I much prefer to grow clones outside. I like to know exactly what I have, how it grows, how much it produces and when it's done. Seeds are like fingerprints. No two are the same...even with IBLs. it's a crapshoot. Nothing wrong with growing seeds outdoors though... Done it for 25 yrs. I simply find it easier and more satisfying overall growing clones. Each to their own.

 

[Frankster]

yes, same genetics, but different node growth depending on younger or older motherplant from which the cutting is taken from.

this node spacing does change from that young vegetative growth of symmetrical node growth, to that asymmetrical node growth as the plant goes older. so, you could see if the clone was taken from a young or older plant.

some growers prefer to take cuttings from the lower growth, while others will take cuttings of the growing 'shoots' (tips) of the plant - probably this is preference, but there's some theory behind when to take cuttings or where to take the cuttings from the plant. in the end, each to their own, whatever works....

i took clones off a plant which was flowering - and these clones reacted differently to those clones which I took off the same motherplant earlier. these clones started to bud straight away under 18/6 on/off light cycle, while the clones from the same motherplant but when younger didn't react such. and i even took cuttings from small buds, and ofcourse these clones budded out first, before starting to revegetate.

i was trying to describe these differences between growing seeds vs clones, and clones off the same motherplant when the motherplant is in different growth phase herself...

I am certainly no expert on this subject. At least from a practical standpoint, but I do know a bit about genetics (RNA/DNA) and a lot about cell growth, biochemistry and metabolism.
Certainly age matters from a plant perspective, some of the mothers out there are 5 even 8--->20+ years old.

My guess would be this, that a well matured mother is going to produce the best clone quality, and I agree sites matter, taking from new growth and internodes, or tips, is probably preferable as your cells are still young and flexible and differentiate into the required cell types (ie. roots, stems, leaf, ect.) also, my guess would be that hormone levels are higher in these types of tissues.

On the down side, I think that a plant that's overly immature isn't suitable for clones either, because DNA traits are generally going to be more fully expressed in a plant as it matures. It's going to have a "prime" age. Once the plant hits "elderly" stage, I don't know if it might get some sort of genetic frailty with reproduction or not, it's certainly an interesting subject, and I think that I would say away from chopping clones from a plant once it get's "REALLY" old, and try and make a backup plan or something, long before this becomes an issue.

Also, general plant health of the mother is going to have huge implications on the viability and vigor of the clones.

Here's a thread on this subject.

Mother Plants grow old.

I just read this posted by Steep hill labs..not sure where they got it It's an old story... the Grower can't understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant 'Old Reliable' keep getting lower and lower potency values "....no matter how I change up the lighting...

www.thcfarmer.com

It's an old story... the Grower can't understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant 'Old Reliable' keep getting lower and lower potency values "....no matter how I change up the lighting, micro-nutrients, etc... originally my plants tested 15% CBDA & 6% THCA, now they down to 9% CBDA & 4% THCA."

 

[Anthem]

Yea , I don't know much about what's going on in Cali
But I'm sure you can find some nice clones from someone ....
I like both seed and clone grows

Yes you can find some nice clones in Cali. Most of the hot strains in Cali are clone only.
I only use seeds when I am looking for a something that is not avialable, so much easier to clone and to me you are at least 5 weeks ahead of growing from seed.

 

[linde]

I agree with the last post. Clones most definitely have a peak age. I ran an old DJ Shorts Blueberry clone for years with no issues but as the mother got older it lost vigor and most noticeably flavor. I tried making a new mother off of her and it just lost everything. I seeded it out and harvested it. That was the end of her. Sometimes the mother just gets too big and rootbound or lengthy so it seems like starting a new mother is the right thing to do....but taking a clone of a clone of a clone isn't a good thing to do and results in weaker mother plants...My personal experiences only.

 

[Anthem]

I am certainly no expert on this subject. At least from a practical standpoint, but I do know a bit about genetics (RNA/DNA) and a lot about cell growth, biochemistry and metabolism.
Certainly age matters from a plant perspective, some of the mothers out there are 5 even 8--->20+ years old.

My guess would be this, that a well matured mother is going to produce the best clone quality, and I agree sites matter, taking from new growth and internodes, or tips, is probably preferable as your cells are still young and flexible and differentiate into the required cell types (ie. roots, stems, leaf, ect.) also, my guess would be that hormone levels are higher in these types of tissues.

On the down side, I think that a plant that's overly immature isn't suitable for clones either, because DNA traits are generally going to be more fully expressed in a plant as it matures. It's going to have a "prime" age. Once the plant hits "elderly" stage, I don't know if it might get some sort of genetic frailty with reproduction or not, it's certainly an interesting subject, and I think that I would say away from chopping clones from a plant once it get's "REALLY" old, and try and make a backup plan or something, long before this becomes an issue.

Also, general plant health of the mother is going to have huge implications on the viability and vigor of the clones.

Here's a thread on this subject.

Mother Plants grow old.

I just read this posted by Steep hill labs..not sure where they got it It's an old story... the Grower can't understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant 'Old Reliable' keep getting lower and lower potency values "....no matter how I change up the lighting...

www.thcfarmer.com

It's an old story... the Grower can't understand why the last three batches of clones from his mother plant 'Old Reliable' keep getting lower and lower potency values "....no matter how I change up the lighting, micro-nutrients, etc... originally my plants tested 15% CBDA & 6% THCA, now they down to 9% CBDA & 4% THCA."

As far at the genetic drift you are referring to in the last paragraph I have heard both to be true. Some say their is genetic drift and some say there is not. On this subject, tissue culture is said to bring the genetics back to ground zero or day one. Also taking an old mom out into sunlight is said to help as well.
I have one of my keepers I thought was drifting because I switched from soil to coco, but I have since realized that the interaction between cation exchange and cal mag dozes is probably what caused the bud structure to change. Time will tell.

 

[Frankster]

I agree with the last post. Clones most definitely have a peak age. I ran an old DJ Shorts Blueberry clone for years with no issues but as the mother got older it lost vigor and most noticeably flavor. I tried making a new mother off of her and it just lost everything. I seeded it out and harvested it. That was the end of her. Sometimes the mother just gets too big and rootbound or lengthy so it seems like starting a new mother is the right thing to do....but taking a clone of a clone of a clone isn't a good thing to do and results in weaker mother plants...My personal experiences only.

Yea, I think the key is taking either excellent clones off the mother when she's in her "prime" and keeping either several of them, (backups) or cloning then seeding (breeding it upon itself) while it's fully mature, but in a "younger side of prime" status are probably the two best options for the home grower. At least that's what I'll be doing if I get around to having a few. There's a lot of stuff being done right now with Encapsulated nodes that's very interesting for the industry.

#cannabis #tissueculture #consulting #genetics #clones #optimizedprotocols #elitephenos #topshelf #massachusetts | Douglas Klier

How are you preserving your genetics not in production? Consider our stasis protocols for encapsulated nodes (clones) to be stored as synthetic seeds. We can help you maximize your production space today. Lets work... #cannabis #tissueculture #consulting #genetics #clones #optimizedprotocols...

www.linkedin.com

 

[Anthem]

Yea, I think the key is taking either excellent clones off the mother when she's in her "prime" and keeping either several of them, (backups) or cloning then seeding (breeding it upon itself) while it's fully mature, but in a "younger side of prime" status are probably the two best options for the home grower. At least that's what I'll be doing if I get around to having a few. There's a lot of stuff being done right now with Encapsulated nodes that's very interesting for the industry.

#cannabis #tissueculture #consulting #genetics #clones #optimizedprotocols #elitephenos #topshelf #massachusetts | Douglas Klier

How are you preserving your genetics not in production? Consider our stasis protocols for encapsulated nodes (clones) to be stored as synthetic seeds. We can help you maximize your production space today. Lets work... #cannabis #tissueculture #consulting #genetics #clones #optimizedprotocols...

www.linkedin.com

You also have to take into account the plant acclimating to its environment. This is also a fact that can change the outcome of the flower,

 

[Frankster]

As far at the genetic drift you are referring to in the last paragraph I have heard both to be true. Some say their is genetic drift and some say there is not. On this subject, tissue culture is said to bring the genetics back to ground zero or day one. Also taking an old mom out into sunlight is said to help as well.
I have one of my keepers I thought was drifting because I switched from soil to coco, but I have since realized that the interaction between cation exchange and cal mag dozes is probably what caused the bud structure to change. Time will tell.

I suspect there's always a chance of getting some kind of "salt block" going on in a plant that's held onto for that long. It's almost like I would think digging it up every now and again, Massage the roots if necessary, get any "lumps" out, (inspect the root ball) and replant, and allow it to heal it's root base, if necessary. Might actually be a good maintenance idea, making sure everything below ground is up to par is critical to the long term health of the mother plant. It's always going to be struggling, if it's always fighting against some sort of issue, and having a big lump of salts in your root-bed should certainly qualify.

 

[Anthem]

I suspect there's always a chance of getting some kind of "salt block" going on in a plant that's held onto for that long. It's almost like I would think digging it up every now and again, Massage the roots if necessary, get any "lumps" out, (inspect the root ball) and replant, and allow it to heal it's root base, if necessary. Might actually be a good maintenance idea, making sure everything below ground is up to par is critical to the long term health of the mother plant. It's always going to be struggling, if it's always fighting against some sort of issue, and having a big lump of salts in your root-bed should certainly qualify.

I do not believe there is enough data to support a finding in one direction or the other.

 

[tomatoesarecooltoo]

Seems like all of the terminology you use is gathered from " dark heart " nursery , who's business is selling clones ....so that's ironic

Dark Heart has patented the cure for the dudding viroid, and has sold plenty of dudded clones. I don't know if they are doing it intentionally or if its just so common that it is unavoidable. Either way I don't trust them.

 

[ezenzyme]

Well where you are defines a lot of that question, what climate, what kind of season, what kind of avail of clones, whats the mom like with those clones, what kind of seeds avail, what kind of program you want to run, how is the weather, is there high humidity and or rain fall, how much dirt, how many years acclimated? any seeds or clones avail acclimated? A perfect female seed plant selected from many females, vs, a perfect clone from a young, perfect seed mom under a year old that are acclimated? I bet similar performance, if its done to perfection, but also all these things depend on different things. I think in growing monsters, somewhere that has beautiful topsoil and a really amazing season and unlimited soil space with a shallow water table outside super early in hoops with huge starts that have not been root bound, that a seed would out a clone any day. period. 10+ easy. Growing rows of 200 gal pots planted at normal times? prolly if its a good mom, same. The old schoolers say seed only, i started 150 seeds for my 20 perfect females. But the truth is there is no real evidence to support either, but i will say, anything is possible. Its all relative. Put the work in, to find out for yourself. If you want it done right do it yourself. Be a badass? Breed your own seeds, in my personal opinion. Proper Planning and Preventation Prevents Piss Poor Performance Producing a Plethora of Purple Pounds of Pot!