**First Grow** (PUDC, Sour Power) Pt.2- Spider Farmer SE5000 Journal

[MIGrampaUSA]

Yeah I’m looking into other nutes. Jacks 321 seems liked by many.

Jacks is good. I've not used it personally but people I know have. It's not expensive and it gives good results.

Actually, there are many that are good. I've used botanicare in previous grows. They have both an organic line and a "salts" line. I've used their organic. Inexpensive when compared to many of the others. Easy to use, and my buds had great flavor. I'm currently using Roots Organic Terp Teas and I'm loving the results so far. Botanicare is a 2 part, grow and bloom, but has other things like cal mag, and sweeteners, etc in other bottles. You don't need to buy every product in their line to have a successful grow. Roots Organics terp teas are dry amendments. They can be brewed as a tea or top dressed/mixed into the soil. Next grow, I'll top dress only and see how that goes.

 

[Observationist]

Jacks is good. I've not used it personally but people I know have. It's not expensive and it gives good results.

Actually, there are many that are good. I've used botanicare in previous grows. They have both an organic line and a "salts" line. I've used their organic. Inexpensive when compared to many of the others. Easy to use, and my buds had great flavor. I'm currently using Roots Organic Terp Teas and I'm loving the results so far. Botanicare is a 2 part, grow and bloom, but has other things like cal mag, and sweeteners, etc in other bottles. You don't need to buy every product in their line to have a successful grow. Roots Organics terp teas are dry amendments. They can be brewed as a tea or top dressed/mixed into the soil. Next grow, I'll top dress only and see how that goes.

I’ve only used the roots organic terp tea, I swear by it, I mix a little with my coco

also used some botanicare, I thought about getting that line again, but using emerald harvest and Dutch pro right now,

also used advanced nutrients big bud before, seemed to do something.

I

 

[growsince79]

Yeah I’m looking into other nutes. Jacks 321 seems liked by many.

Never used the 321 mixes. I once grew a 4oz cola with peters (now jacks) 10-30-20. It was good stuff. A bit too much ammoniacal N for my liking; huge buds though.

 

[Krispy420]

The Kraken aka Lemongrass. Probably couple weeks left?
View attachment 1212983

The Pineapple Upside Down Cake... hoping another week, week and a half
View attachment 1212985
View attachment 1212986

nice shots of the trichomes. how did you go about taking those?

 

[Anthem]

Never used the 321 mixes. I once grew a 4oz cola with peters (now jacks) 10-30-20. It was good stuff. A bit too much ammoniacal N for my liking; huge buds though.

JR Peter's is still the mother company. Jacks 321 is just their Cannabis nutrient line from what I can tell. The stuff is very economical if you can find it. But not really for a hobby type grow. Because these are all dry salts with grams per gallon requirements. There is a lot out there about the Jacks 321 and several companies offer the same or similar products.

 

[Anthem]

Jacks is good. I've not used it personally but people I know have. It's not expensive and it gives good results.

Actually, there are many that are good. I've used botanicare in previous grows. They have both an organic line and a "salts" line. I've used their organic. Inexpensive when compared to many of the others. Easy to use, and my buds had great flavor. I'm currently using Roots Organic Terp Teas and I'm loving the results so far. Botanicare is a 2 part, grow and bloom, but has other things like cal mag, and sweeteners, etc in other bottles. You don't need to buy every product in their line to have a successful grow. Roots Organics terp teas are dry amendments. They can be brewed as a tea or top dressed/mixed into the soil. Next grow, I'll top dress only and see how that goes.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that the nutrients are not the end all be all the market has made them. What was it @BillFarthing said. There are only 14 elements the plant uptakes and 6 inputs that influence plant grow. Take J R Peters, mother company of Jacks. 70 year old company. If you really take a look at 14 elements how much has not already been tried. When someone has a great grow and attributes it to the nutrients or something new they added to their line up. What else did they change? As home growers there is no real way to say this did better because of "A" or "B". We do not have enough control to determine such outcomes. I was taught by a man named Grumpy Bill Jenkys that is the seat of the pants method. The only way to truly determine something say "A" is better is a controlled experiment. With total control and over several grows to truly determine "A" improves things.
The sad thing and I mean sad is say AN. These guys are purposely leaving part of the mix out of the basic formulas so you will buy their add on products. So if you do spend the money on the whole line yes can get amazing results but the fact of the matter is that they are just leaving parts of the mix out of the basic formula to force you to buy their add on products to get the plants to their full potential. Take Overy Drive, it does do something, what is in it is some sort of PGR, it is organic but it will not be posted on the bottle. It is in there but they only have to list the NPK, Micro and Macro contents. But what else does Overy Drive do, there is a Ying and Yang effect for using the stuff. Meaning, yes the bud size will increase but and this is the big but at WHAT COST. For every reaction that is an equal and Possing Reaction. Meaning yes you can get larger yields but something is going to suffer.

 

[MIGrampaUSA]

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that the nutrients are not the end all be all the market has made them. What was it @BillFarthing said. There are only 14 elements the plant uptakes and 6 inputs that influence plant grow. Take J R Peters, mother company of Jacks. 70 year old company. If you really take a look at 14 elements how much has not already been tried. When someone has a great grow and attributes it to the nutrients or something new they added to their line up. What else did they change? As home growers there is no real way to say this did better because of "A" or "B". We do not have enough control to determine such outcomes. I was taught by a man named Grumpy Bill Jenkys that is the seat of the pants method. The only way to truly determine something say "A" is better is a controlled experiment. With total control and over several grows to truly determine "A" improves things.
The sad thing and I mean sad is say AN. These guys are purposely leaving part of the mix out of the basic formulas so you will buy their add on products. So if you do spend the money on the whole line yes can get amazing results but the fact of the matter is that they are just leaving parts of the mix out of the basic formula to force you to buy their add on products to get the plants to their full potential. Take Overy Drive, it does do something, what is in it is some sort of PGR, it is organic but it will not be posted on the bottle. It is in there but they only have to list the NPK, Micro and Macro contents. But what else does Overy Drive do, there is a Ying and Yang effect for using the stuff. Meaning, yes the bud size will increase but and this is the big but at WHAT COST. For every reaction that is an equal and Possing Reaction. Meaning yes you can get larger yields but something is going to suffer.

Following up on that @Anthem

Part of this is marketing. The other part is our ready made, fast food society that thinks there's a drug or a food/food supplement that will "cure everything." More and more, what I see is over-use of nutrients because if 1 tablespoon is good, 1 1/2 or 2 must be better. Unfortunately, that's far from the truth and so often "less is more." "More" just causes an imbalance of nutrient ratios and causes lock outs and other issues.

For many of us a 2 or 3 part nutrient program is more than sufficient with the only other "required" add-on being cal/mag supplements for those who use filtered water. In most cases, that's really all you need.

 

[Anthem]

Following up on that @Anthem

Part of this is marketing. The other part is our ready made, fast food society that thinks there's a drug or a food/food supplement that will "cure everything." More and more, what I see is over-use of nutrients because if 1 tablespoon is good, 1 1/2 or 2 must be better. Unfortunately, that's far from the truth and so often "less is more." "More" just causes an imbalance of nutrient ratios and causes lock outs and other issues.

For many of us a 2 or 3 part nutrient program is more than sufficient with the only other "required" add-on being cal/mag supplements for those who use filtered water. In most cases, that's really all you need.

To add to this. You really have to do your own homework on this stuff. No one is really going to tell you what is the truth. I spent a lot of time recently researching nutrients because of issues I was having. Long story short, the dry salt nutrient line I was using is overly hydroscopic. Meaning parts of it sucks moisture out of the air and into the salt. So when you weight out the parts correctly you are not getting the correct PPM's. Nutrients have to be separated into at least 2 parts so they do not react when they are in high quantities or they will have a carry on one or several parts so that one element dissolves into the water before the other element begins to dissolve. This is the way VEG A&B works. They use clay to coat elements so they dissolve at different times in the process. Something like Jacks 321 is pretty impressive. If you drill down they have modified their nutrient schedules and are pretty cutting edge for just a simple formula for the life of the plant. Sure they have a clone/seedling nutrient, Onset of Flower Nutrient and a finishing nutrient. But if you take what @BillFarthing has stated in Balling on a Budget thread it really starts to come together. A couple of additional inputs and you have a complete nutrient line up for like 8 cents a gallon.
As times progress you will or already have seen other nutrient companies coming to the table with dry salt formula's. AN already has with some marketing BS attached to a recent addition of dry salt nutrients. The one thing that holds true is the plant if it is feed a solution that is of the correct EC/PPM and not high will only take up the elements it wants to take up. Things like tip burn are associated with the plant having to take up atoms it does not really want to because it needs more water and the only way it can get the water is to take up the element attached to the water and process it. It is pretty basic, but you always have these nutrient companies pushing you in the wrong direction. I recently heard a podcast of a GM or Marketing VP pushing an EC of 3 from start to finish for the plant. Now mind you this was a dry salt nutrient line and he was the one that stated what AN is doing but if you really think about it 14 elements, how many ways are there to skin the cat. There are only so many so if you read between the lines this guy was calling out AN for not putting the correct stuff in the 2 or 3 part base and at the same time talking out his back side. Because the only way you are going to need an EC of 3.0 from start to finish is if there is something lacking in your formulation at say 1.5 EC. Again you have to do your own homework or just pay the water tax or water ever you want to call it.

 

[Dothraki]

Following up on that @Anthem

Part of this is marketing. The other part is our ready made, fast food society that thinks there's a drug or a food/food supplement that will "cure everything." More and more, what I see is over-use of nutrients because if 1 tablespoon is good, 1 1/2 or 2 must be better. Unfortunately, that's far from the truth and so often "less is more." "More" just causes an imbalance of nutrient ratios and causes lock outs and other issues.

For many of us a 2 or 3 part nutrient program is more than sufficient with the only other "required" add-on being cal/mag supplements for those who use filtered water. In most cases, that's really all you need.

That’s absolutely right. A buddy of mine on his last grow said “I think I’ll up the nutes tomorrow” and I asked why, your plants look good and healthy...his reply was “more nutes the bigger the fruits” I laughed hahaha jackass

 

[growsince79]

To add to this. You really have to do your own homework on this stuff. No one is really going to tell you what is the truth. I spent a lot of time recently researching nutrients because of issues I was having. Long story short, the dry salt nutrient line I was using is overly hydroscopic. Meaning parts of it sucks moisture out of the air and into the salt. So when you weight out the parts correctly you are not getting the correct PPM's. Nutrients have to be separated into at least 2 parts so they do not react when they are in high quantities or they will have a carry on one or several parts so that one element dissolves into the water before the other element begins to dissolve. This is the way VEG A&B works. They use clay to coat elements so they dissolve at different times in the process. Something like Jacks 321 is pretty impressive. If you drill down they have modified their nutrient schedules and are pretty cutting edge for just a simple formula for the life of the plant. Sure they have a clone/seedling nutrient, Onset of Flower Nutrient and a finishing nutrient. But if you take what @BillFarthing has stated in Balling on a Budget thread it really starts to come together. A couple of additional inputs and you have a complete nutrient line up for like 8 cents a gallon.
As times progress you will or already have seen other nutrient companies coming to the table with dry salt formula's. AN already has with some marketing BS attached to a recent addition of dry salt nutrients. The one thing that holds true is the plant if it is feed a solution that is of the correct EC/PPM and not high will only take up the elements it wants to take up. Things like tip burn are associated with the plant having to take up atoms it does not really want to because it needs more water and the only way it can get the water is to take up the element attached to the water and process it. It is pretty basic, but you always have these nutrient companies pushing you in the wrong direction. I recently heard a podcast of a GM or Marketing VP pushing an EC of 3 from start to finish for the plant. Now mind you this was a dry salt nutrient line and he was the one that stated what AN is doing but if you really think about it 14 elements, how many ways are there to skin the cat. There are only so many so if you read between the lines this guy was calling out AN for not putting the correct stuff in the 2 or 3 part base and at the same time talking out his back side. Because the only way you are going to need an EC of 3.0 from start to finish is if there is something lacking in your formulation at say 1.5 EC. Again you have to do your own homework or just pay the water tax or water ever you want to call it.

I just use a one part mix. If I need to add calmag I do.

 

[Dothraki]

JR Peter's is still the mother company. Jacks 321 is just their Cannabis nutrient line from what I can tell. The stuff is very economical if you can find it. But not really for a hobby type grow. Because these are all dry salts with grams per gallon requirements. There is a lot out there about the Jacks 321 and several companies offer the same or similar products.

I never thought about that. I don’t mind paying more for the smaller quantities (ie: prebottled nutes) which I could probably be more precise with only mixing a couple gallons during flower, liters or less in veg, etc. Might be better to go a different route.

 

[MIGrampaUSA]

That’s absolutely right. A buddy of mine on his last grow said “I think I’ll up the nutes tomorrow” and I asked why, your plants look good and healthy...his reply was “more nutes the bigger the fruits” I laughed hahaha jackass

I'm married and I live by "happy wife, happy life." Your plants are the same. Keep them happy. Over feeding them makes them miserable. lol

They don't like being starved either.

 

[growsince79]

Started using this in 1981, I just learned they are still around. They used to sell it at the head shop.

16 oz. Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14) [2001] - $8.98 : Hydroponics!, Hydroponics and Hydroponic Systems from Eco Enterprises

Hydroponics! 16 oz. Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14) [2001] - Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14 N-P-K) was developed for the Pacific N.W. Climate (temperate zone). It is ideal for our most popular hydroponic plants - tomatoes, cukes, lettuce and bell peppers. Overall, it is probably the best hydroponic plant...

www.ecogrow.com

 

[Anthem]

That’s absolutely right. A buddy of mine on his last grow said “I think I’ll up the nutes tomorrow” and I asked why, your plants look good and healthy...his reply was “more nutes the bigger the fruits” I laughed hahaha jackass

There is a point where this holds true and the more refined the environment with CO2 enrichment, VPD and temperature in check with high PPFD lights it can hold true to a POINT. But as I stated we are just home growers and there is no way you can dial in the environment well enough to benefit from such high EC's. Sure you can get to 2 to 1/2 per light maybe 3 but that is really pushing it. And some will say oh I hit it all the time. I have seen one band member that probably got 3 per light and that was it. I have seen others that may have gotten it using Paco but that is just a no no for me. It is just not that easy to hit such numbers all the time even with good genetics. If you go take a look at Bruce Bughee's you tube video on PPFD he kind of starts to go down the road of just how much further the plant can be pushed under say normal conditions. Meaning we are approaching the maximum yield we are going to see as home growers. If you could get a completely controlled environment with AC monitored to like the .1 of a degree, humidity the same, VPD the say CO2 the same and have the ability to water the plant to the same degree you could push it further but this is an expensive endeavor.

 

[Dothraki]

nice shots of the trichomes. how did you go about taking those?

So here it is... the big secret. I see people buying all sorts of bluetooth scopes and jewelers loupes and some are absolute garbage, some work well.. but I think the best way is with a $12 macro lens for your smart phone. That’s a handheld image with a 10 year old ipad. If you want to zoom right in to a single trichome head you can duct tape the phone (temporarily) to a mic stand and position it to the bud, then zoom all the way in. Use the 10sec timer to snap a pic.

Or just point and click by hand for the pics I took. Cant find mine but here’s a similar one, $18 https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-kit...=1643849054&sprefix=macro+lens,aps,98&sr=8-16

 

[MIGrampaUSA]

I never thought about that. I don’t mind paying more for the smaller quantities (ie: prebottled nutes) which I could probably be more precise with only mixing a couple gallons during flower, liters or less in veg, etc. Might be better to go a different route.

I decided to move to top dressing using the terp teas because I need better control over the feeding schedule. We've had more issues this run than normal. I discovered why tonight ... My wife has been feeding nutes every watering.

The grow will still work out. The flowers should still be good. The yield will suffer.

 

[Dothraki]

There is a point where this holds true and the more refined the environment with CO2 enrichment, VPD and temperature in check with high PPFD lights it can hold true to a POINT. But as I stated we are just home growers and there is no way you can dial in the environment well enough to benefit from such high EC's. Sure you can get to 2 to 1/2 per light maybe 3 but that is really pushing it. And some will say oh I hit it all the time. I have seen one band member that probably got 3 per light and that was it. I have seen others that may have gotten it using Paco but that is just a no no for me. It is just not that easy to hit such numbers all the time even with good genetics. If you go take a look at Bruce Bughee's you tube video on PPFD he kind of starts to go down the road of just how much further the plant can be pushed under say normal conditions. Meaning we are approaching the maximum yield we are going to see as home growers. If you could get a completely controlled environment with AC monitored to like the .1 of a degree, humidity the same, VPD the say CO2 the same and have the ability to water the plant to the same degree you could push it further but this is an expensive endeavor.

So how close are greenhouses? Do you reap all the benefits of indoor and outdoor grown? I’ve wondered that. If so, that’d be the way to go in summer.

 

[Anthem]

Started using this in 1981, I just learned they are still around. They used to sell it at the head shop.

16 oz. Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14) [2001] - $8.98 : Hydroponics!, Hydroponics and Hydroponic Systems from Eco Enterprises

Hydroponics! 16 oz. Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14) [2001] - Ecogrow Standard (10-8-14 N-P-K) was developed for the Pacific N.W. Climate (temperate zone). It is ideal for our most popular hydroponic plants - tomatoes, cukes, lettuce and bell peppers. Overall, it is probably the best hydroponic plant...

www.ecogrow.com

That is cool and all but take say Jacks. 25 pounds is like 65 bucks for the ferts and the calcium nitrate and epsom salt are even less.

 

[Dothraki]

So how close are greenhouses? Do you reap all the benefits of indoor and outdoor grown? I’ve wondered that. If so, that’d be the way to go in summer.

Oh wait.... it’d only be one grow per year. Maybe that’s the downside, which really isn’t if it’s just for yourself.

 

[Dothraki]

I decided to move to top using the terp teas because I need better control over the feeding schedule. We've had more issues this run than normal. I discovered why tonight ... My wife has been feeding nutes every watering.

The grow will still work out. The flowers should still be good. The yield will suffer.

Hahaha that’s great. Oops! Well at least you solved the mystery lol