Ive done it again , root issues

[carlosescobar]

I chopped my 2 runtz layer cake last night , after i managed to fk them up once again. in the last week of flower i turned the light up to 100% and it got light stressed , put out some new white pistils and fox tailed (like my last grow) the smell also dissappered completely, Ive only got a viparspectra xs 1000 but i think it was a bit close.
looks like i will get about 2 oz from each plant but today when i emptied the soil i noticed once again my roots are fine , hair like and dont fill the 7 gal pot ! Im doing some thing wrong , the only thing i can think of is overwatering still. if its too wet from the start would this cause the roots to stay small ? and if they are small they are not going to suck up enough nutrients later on in flower ? ive been watering this about every 3 days so i guess i am going to have to let it dry back more , what do you think ?

 

[amneziaHaze]

you can allways grow hydro you dont have that problem there

 

[JIMKSI64]

Is this an auto?
If not the only thing that comes to mind is a longer veg.
Based on 3 autos I was going to step DOWN to 3 gal pots as the roots did not even fill the pot. My 5-6 week vegged photos always fill the pot up. Always get green eruptions on top of the dirt and air pruning lower.

 

[amneziaHaze]

could be the genetic of the plant as well

 

[dankstranger]

I chopped my 2 runtz layer cake last night , after i managed to fk them up once again. in the last week of flower i turned the light up to 100% and it got light stressed , put out some new white pistils and fox tailed (like my last grow) the smell also dissappered completely, Ive only got a viparspectra xs 1000 but i think it was a bit close.
looks like i will get about 2 oz from each plant but today when i emptied the soil i noticed once again my roots are fine , hair like and dont fill the 7 gal pot ! Im doing some thing wrong , the only thing i can think of is overwatering still. if its too wet from the start would this cause the roots to stay small ? and if they are small they are not going to suck up enough nutrients later on in flower ? ive been watering this about every 3 days so i guess i am going to have to let it dry back more , what do you think ?

Couple things jump out man.

Those roots not filling the 7 gallon is classic wet feet from starting in too big a pot. When you keep a big container evenly moist the roots get lazy and don't spread out. They just make fine hair roots that never colonize the pot.

Next run stage your pots - solo cup to 1 gallon to 3 or 5 gallon then 7 gallon. Let each pot lighten up before watering. In soil water to light runoff then wait until the top inch or two is dry and the pot feels light. Big pots hold moisture way longer than small ones so watering every 3 days can be too much in early veg.

Those foxtails and new white pistils late in flower is light stress. Cranking that XS1000 to 100% late in bloom especially if it was close can push over 1000 PPFD at 11-12 inches. That's enough to trigger foxtailing and kill your terps.

Back the dimmer down or raise the light to keep late flower PPFD closer to 600-800 range.

Smell disappearing is common with too much light and heat. Terpenes cook off and buds throw new pistils instead of finishing. Judge harvest by the original calyxes and trichs, not the fresh foxtail tips.

Runtz x Layer Cake usually finishes around 65-70 days. Pushing intensity at the end just makes more foxtails, not more weight.

Next run step up pot sizes, use fabric pots with extra perlite for air. Water the root zone not the whole pot early on and expand as roots grow. Lift the pot, don't go by calendar.

In late flower keep that XS1000 around 12-18 inches with dimmer adjusted so leaves aren't clawing or bleaching. If pistils keep popping and tops look angry back it off.

If these weren't autos a bit longer veg helps the rootball fill before stretch. Autos often won't fill a 7 gallon unless they're monsters.

Bottom line - more dry back early, gentler light late and your roots and terps will be way better.

 

[carlosescobar]

Is this an auto?
If not the only thing that comes to mind is a longer veg.
Based on 3 autos I was going to step DOWN to 3 gal pots as the roots did not even fill the pot. My 5-6 week vegged photos always fill the pot up. Always get green eruptions on top of the dirt and air pruning lower.

AH HA ! yes you're right , i flipped them at 4 weeks because i wanted to keep them small , . So do roots stop growing when the plant is in bud ? that would explain why all my indoors grows do the same thing. Im flipping them too early ....Ive got one in a pot outside which i kept forgetting to water , and which by now has had nearly 2 months of veg and that pot is full of nice thick white roots (i was forced to repot it but i think i got away with it)

 

[carlosescobar]

Couple things jump out man.

Those roots not filling the 7 gallon is classic wet feet from starting in too big a pot. When you keep a big container evenly moist the roots get lazy and don't spread out. They just make fine hair roots that never colonize the pot.

Next run stage your pots - solo cup to 1 gallon to 3 or 5 gallon then 7 gallon. Let each pot lighten up before watering. In soil water to light runoff then wait until the top inch or two is dry and the pot feels light. Big pots hold moisture way longer than small ones so watering every 3 days can be too much in early veg.

Those foxtails and new white pistils late in flower is light stress. Cranking that XS1000 to 100% late in bloom especially if it was close can push over 1000 PPFD at 11-12 inches. That's enough to trigger foxtailing and kill your terps.

Back the dimmer down or raise the light to keep late flower PPFD closer to 600-800 range.

Smell disappearing is common with too much light and heat. Terpenes cook off and buds throw new pistils instead of finishing. Judge harvest by the original calyxes and trichs, not the fresh foxtail tips.

Runtz x Layer Cake usually finishes around 65-70 days. Pushing intensity at the end just makes more foxtails, not more weight.

Next run step up pot sizes, use fabric pots with extra perlite for air. Water the root zone not the whole pot early on and expand as roots grow. Lift the pot, don't go by calendar.

In late flower keep that XS1000 around 12-18 inches with dimmer adjusted so leaves aren't clawing or bleaching. If pistils keep popping and tops look angry back it off.

If these weren't autos a bit longer veg helps the rootball fill before stretch. Autos often won't fill a 7 gallon unless they're monsters.

Bottom line - more dry back early, gentler light late and your roots and terps will be way better.

i agree. so basically ive started off with a small root ball then been overwatering all the way through , only 1 litre per watering , but like you say its just been sitting there , doing nothing. i put a layer of clay balls at the bottom of this one to help drainage , had it raised up because i thought it was something to do with overwatering. I have unfortunately just started another layer cake in a large pot but at least i should be able to adjust watering now...and leave it for 2 months. they are photos.
I am guessing as well that a full rootball makes for a more resilient plant, mine always seem to be on the edge of survival , the slightest thing , like 2 ml of P/K can upset them

 

[carlosescobar]

could be the genetic of the plant as well

talking of genetics , it did throw out a fasciated bud , which is 2 buds fused together

 

[JIMKSI64]

I did not comment on the watering situation as I am unaware of the medium. I am all organic in soil with perlite and I shoot for a dryback rate of 3.5to 4.5 days. My max pour this run was 1.8 liters and it was steady for the last 5 weeks until the plants turned off at the end. I use the pot method for initial but the last run I have been weighing on the cleaning and feeding stand to verify weight.
I put the plant back in 3 times during this run. I had enough data on 3 plants to get the average vegative weight to figure this out. My initial weight check was wrong 3 out of 13 feedings. Average error was 10 oz of water.

 

[carlosescobar]

I did not comment on the watering situation as I am unaware of the medium. I am all organic in soil with perlite and I shoot for a dryback rate of 3.5to 4.5 days. My max pour this run was 1.8 liters and it was steady for the last 5 weeks until the plants turned off at the end. I use the pot method for initial but the last run I have been weighing on the cleaning and feeding stand to verify weight.
I put the plant back in 3 times during this run. I had enough data on 3 plants to get the average vegative weight to figure this out. My initial weight check was wrong 3 out of 13 feedings. Average error was 10 oz of water.

well, thats another thing i wasnt going to mention...i was in organic soil (after struggling with coco for nearly 2 years) with added mychorizae fungi, and bat guano. i used organic feed and biostimulant for tomatoes but i also used ph down and advance nutrients big bud , very small amounts because i was desperate not to lock this one out. but im now understanding you cant mix them.. Ive got some A+B nutrients for soil so i'm going to switch over

 

[JIMKSI64]

Hey if you wanna compare fuck ups in growing we can do this every day all day. I would love to see a thread the size of the train wreck titled
" Learn from my fail"

No " I heard about this one guy" stuff either. Just what we ourselves did that no one else should ever do.
With pictures.
It would be the best thread for a new grower ever.

I tried to run hydro with a system installed that uses magnetic energy to polarize certain minerals to reduce scale on plumbing. Thing works great.
What I did not know was as soon as the oxygen level went up the reaction moved onto the cal and mag in the jacks 321 I was using. It bound it up and redeposited it in the DWC buckets.
I did not catch this because I had a cool extraction system where I pulled and pushed water in from outside the tent. The turbulation of the event remixed the grains. I did not notice until week 6 and the plants were shot.

 

[carlosescobar]

Hey if you wanna compare fuck ups in growing we can do this every day all day. I would love to see a thread the size of the train wreck titled
" Learn from my fail"

No " I heard about this one guy" stuff either. Just what we ourselves did that no one else should ever do.
With pictures.
It would be the best thread for a new grower ever.

I tried to run hydro with a system installed that uses magnetic energy to polarize certain minerals to reduce scale on plumbing. Thing works great.
What I did not know was as soon as the oxygen level went up the reaction moved onto the cal and mag in the jacks 321 I was using. It bound it up and redeposited it in the DWC buckets.
I did not catch this because I had a cool extraction system where I pulled and pushed water in from outside the tent. The turbulation of the event remixed the grains. I did not notice until week 6 and the plants were shot.

yeah its worse when its near the end. I know now when that smell goes its shot. some of mine are embarressing , like when i switched back to soil after 2 years struggling in coco, then forgot i was in soil so gave nutes with 3 waterings.
Ive even invented new ways of being stupid, like topping up the pot with 2 inches of coco , which soaked up the next 2 waterings so the roots below were bone dry,

 

[Week4Bytch]

yeah its worse when its near the end. I know now when that smell goes its shot. some of mine are embarressing , like when i switched back to soil after 2 years struggling in coco, then forgot i was in soil so gave nutes with 3 waterings.
Ive even invented new ways of being stupid, like topping up the pot with 2 inches of coco , which soaked up the next 2 waterings so the roots below were bone dry,

I wouldn't worry to much about the roots, those take care of themselves and only put out what they need. The soil only journey is a learning curve but once you get it.. your good. Those actually work out better in bigger pots. Can you do it in smaller, sure, if you know what your doing. Lot easier for beginners in bigger pots. In a soil grow, one not involving synthetic salt based nutrients, the watering concepts are night and day. Watering from the bottom for example. Not recommended for bottle growers. But for soil growers... win win... ask the Earthbox growers about that one. yOU'D LOSE THAT ARGUMENT QUICK. What you can control is the lighting for now. What's already been said here is great advice.. turn down them lights towards the end. Want proof? How do them lower buds look compared to the very top?

 

[BearWater]

What were your temps when you you cranked your light up?

 

[carlosescobar]

What were your temps when you you cranked your light up?

the room was around 27 degrees C and the soil was around 21 o , it did creep up to 29 one day as its summer here but i only had it up for 2 days , it was 90% cloudy trics . but yeah that didnt help .

 

[carlosescobar]

I wouldn't worry to much about the roots, those take care of themselves and only put out what they need. The soil only journey is a learning curve but once you get it.. your good. Those actually work out better in bigger pots. Can you do it in smaller, sure, if you know what your doing. Lot easier for beginners in bigger pots. In a soil grow, one not involving synthetic salt based nutrients, the watering concepts are night and day. Watering from the bottom for example. Not recommended for bottle growers. But for soil growers... win win... ask the Earthbox growers about that one. yOU'D LOSE THAT ARGUMENT QUICK. What you can control is the lighting for now. What's already been said here is great advice.. turn down them lights towards the end. Want proof? How do them lower buds look compared to the very top?

I thought i was in living soil but i had a look under a microscope and there was nothing living in there, but ive also just realised that my root juice and calmag would have been salt based,....so does that mean i wouldn't have had a good 'interface' between soil and root. ?
so moving forward, ive got one more chance, this summer, ive got a layer cake which was outside in soil (in a pot) and i repotted just as it flipped itself. got some soil rich in NPK and its just been getting water . i know the roots on this one are super healthy but should i start feeding with my atami A+B (for soil) plus big bud and a little silica?
I am going to try botttom feeding this one . do you do that every 4/5 waterings?

 

[Week4Bytch]

I thought i was in living soil but i had a look under a microscope and there was nothing living in there, but ive also just realised that my root juice and calmag would have been salt based,....so does that mean i wouldn't have had a good 'interface' between soil and root. ?
so moving forward, ive got one more chance, this summer, ive got a layer cake which was outside in soil (in a pot) and i repotted just as it flipped itself. got some soil rich in NPK and its just been getting water . i know the roots on this one are super healthy but should i start feeding with my atami A+B (for soil) plus big bud and a little silica?
I am going to try botttom feeding this one . do you do that every 4/5 waterings?

Well.. it's gonna get complicated. Feeding the soil vs feeding the plant are two entirely diffrent philosophies'. You can go either way and get a really nice grow out of it. But if your trying both, then it's tough to troubleshoot any problems that can come up. I would only suggest watering from the bottom if your 100% just feeding the soil. If your doing synganic type grow (Synthetics/Organic) then watering from the bottom will cause more harm than good, because salt based nutrients build up in the soil, and only way to get rid of the collected salt is to do a runoff... This is where it gets complicated when two diffrent camps give you advice. I jumped in because you seem interested in growing out organically. And then even in the organic circle there's diffrent ideas... Took me three years to figure it out. I'm a minimalist when it comes to inputs to feed the soil. And heavily rely on compost/earthwormcastings to provide the protozoa/microbe/fungi community to make all the magic happen in the soil. The trick in organics is to keep the soil happy and alive. Take care of the soil, the soil takes care of the plant. Once you understand a little of the soil biology it gets easier. It's a learning curve but one that's worth doing. . you won't see your garden the same, not even your lawn. Teaming With Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels is a great read. And Build A Soil vids have a gang of knowledge to grab from. Having said all that, your plant looks GREAT. There's diffrent means to a way and vice versa.. do it the way that makes sense to you.

My daughter brought her scope last winter... and there was all kinds of biology in my soil.

 

[LoveGrowingIt]

So do roots stop growing when the plant is in bud ?

My thinking is that they do, because plant mass in the soil corresponds with plant mass above the soil. Everything changes when the plant has transitioned to the reproductive stage. So, just as foliage growth diminishes, so too does root growth. There is, however, the mycorrhizae, which would continue to thrive while the symbiotic relationship continues to exist.

That said, I'm sure soil dry backs are essential to root growth during the vegetation stage because they stimulate the roots to grow deep into the soil.

Learning how differently the plants grow -- and what their needs are -- during their various life stages made an enormous difference in my growing ability. It all comes down to two things: 1) Knowing what the plants need, and 2) Making sure it's available when they need it.

Teaming With Microbes by Jeff Lowenfels is a great read.

Yes, it is! Excellent posts there. We think alike. And you're right. I've never looked at my lawn the same since having read (most of) the book.

 

[figolus]

I'll make my contribution...

When I grow with my Smart Pots or Air Pots, in my box, on the ground, I have a watering tray, which is always full of water or fertilizer soup. In fact, they're always soaking.

Maybe I'm wrong and you'll correct my stupidity I trust you, my fellow farmers.

So for me, you have to think like you do with hydroponics with Smart Pots and Air Pots.

Air Pots, like Smart Pots, promote water/air exchange around the roots normally?

For that, I think they need to be permanently saturated with water to be at their best.

Smart Pots must be constantly soaked and the level of your growing tray must be adjusted with these pots (air or smart).

 

[LoveGrowingIt]

Air Pots, like Smart Pots, promote water/air exchange around the roots normally?

Air exchange, yes. Water exchange? I haven't heard of that. Water is a solvent for nutrients and a transport mechanism to and from the leaves.

For that, I think they need to be permanently saturated with water to be at their best.

Not from my experience. That usually reduces or prevents environmental gas exchange. Maybe I don't understand what you mean by permanent saturation.