Breeding for whorls

[amneziaHaze]

since when did this become a whats your name on rollitup tread? have some respect to for the dudes diary

 

[DHX]

I see you kept yours, amnesia. Welcome to you to. Nice looking plants on this thread. I was just looking for some facts about the deleted site. Used the search button, certainly meant no offense.

 

[Sativied]

Amazing tread took me a month to read all 50 pages.but it ended soo strange.why did you stop?

Always nice to see people still enjoying this thread, I certainly enjoyed it myself, good times. But then geologic passed away - visiting this thread always makes me sad - I got new suspicious nosy neighbors and then I sort of early retired and spent a house worth on parties, alcohol, food and overpriced coffeeshop weed and stopped growing for a few years. For the past couple of years I had a few plants on 2x4', just to keep the jars filled. Just finished rebuilding back to 4x4' again.

I still have the P variety, smoked some of it in December, and still includes some with whorled phyllotaxy. However, I went to France for a while last summer and turned off the fridge... freezer part leaked all over it, all moisty, including my seed stash. Last 3 times I tried, about 90% of my P seeds, as well as CHxCH (which is C99) and the PCK crosses, fail to pop. I have a couple of hundred of P-F1, and some hundreds up to P-F4, and hundreds of CHxCH so I'm sure I can pop more, but in the end the product is far more relevant than the phyllotaxy of the plant it produced. P is sensitive for budrot and about a quarter produces nanners late in flower. A casino offers better odds than me separating that while passing on the whorled phyllotaxy trait. Doesn't quite mean I've given up on it, moving soon to bigger place....

Sam the Skunkman, RIP, offered me to send him samples of my whorlers a few years ago, leaves, so he could do a DNA test (cause I proved it was inheritable, in and outcrossed), but unfortunately that never happened. I just sort of lost interest and had other things going on. Given the proper tools, knowledge and space I'm quite positive it can be bred true. Even bottled perhaps.

 

[Sativied]

since when did this become a whats your name on rollitup tread? have some respect to for the dudes diary

Appreciate that, that's oldskool, but that said, I don't mind. Tyler was cool when RIU still was and while I don't share any sympathy towards the admin and moderation of what I hope will remained buried and serve as an example of bad karma (22 of my 'friends' banned or threatened or passively aggressive toxicly trolled away by the folk I formerly too so heavily misjudged) I wish you luck figuring out what happened to the forum part of your daily routine.

 

[tylerd.urden]

Appreciate that, that's oldskool, but that said, I don't mind. Tyler was cool when RIU still was and while I don't share any sympathy towards the admin and moderation of what I hope will remained buried and serve as an example of bad karma (22 of my 'friends' banned or threatened or passively aggressive toxicly trolled away by the folk I formerly too so heavily misjudged) I wish you luck figuring out what happened to the forum part of your daily routine.

Thanks, Sativied. Great to see you here, too. Sorry about jacking your thread, in my haste for answers I didn't even recognize where I was posting. I'll be more careful. Great thread, btw.

 

[HerbalEdu]

freezer part leaked all over it, all moisty, including my seed stash. Last 3 times I tried, about 90% of my P seeds, as well as CHxCH (which is C99) and the PCK crosses, fail to pop. I have a couple of hundred of P-F1, and some hundreds up to P-F4, and hundreds of CHxCH so I'm sure I can pop more, but in the end the product is far more relevant than the phyllotaxy of the plant it produced. P is sensitive for budrot and about a quarter produces nanners late in flower. A casino offers better odds than me separating that while passing on the whorled phyllotaxy trait.

tl dr i didn't read the whole thread ...

long story short, you did succeed in rising significantly the ratio of whorled with the child ?

i used to think that wasn't possible else the market would be already full of 100% whorled wich each seeds for a strain
i also was thinkng whorled phyllotaxy was a somatic mutation that didn't affect the reproductive cells and wasn't hereditary.

"Somatic mutations are a change to a person's DNA that occurs after conception to any cell that isn't a germ cell (egg or sperm cell). Somatic mutations don't pass from parents to their children (not hereditary) and happen sporadically or randomly, without the mutation existing in a person's family history"

"Detection and selection of mutants with high commercial value is a common method of introducing new cultivars to the ornamental industry [69]. Different types of spontaneous mutations (germline mutations, somatic mutations, and epimutations), either beneficial or deleterious, occur in cannabis just like in other plants. Adamek et al. [70] showed that somatic mutations occur with high frequency in cannabis and that these mutations differ in various parts of individual plants. There are several cannabis genotypes and/or cultivars with valuable ornamental features that were presumably selected based on spontaneous mutations (Figure 5). For instance, genotypes with whorled phyllotaxy, containing three or more leaves at each node, have resulted from spontaneous somatic mutations. In addition, “Ducksfoot” strains were also derived from spontaneous mutation. This strain is of high value as a potted plant due to its webbed leaves and beautiful purple inflorescences. Australian Bastard Cannabis (ABC) is yet another potential mutant for the potted plant industry, bearing a succulent shrub-like shape that contains shiny, small, smooth, and non-serrated leaves. The cultivar “Divina”, introduced by Casano [6], is a mutant with albinism that produces variegated leaves and tissues. This is the only selected mutant introduced as an ornamental cannabis plant."
source: https://www.mdpi.com/2223-7747/11/18/2383

 

[HerbalEdu]

Somatic mutations are a change to a person's DNA that occurs after conception to any cell that isn't a germ cell (egg or sperm cell). Somatic mutations don't pass from parents to their children (not hereditary) and happen sporadically or randomly, without the mutation existing in a person's family history"

nevermind that seem that the definition for human and it's slightly different with plant:

"Somatic mutations are common in plants, and they may accumulate and be passed on to gametes. The determinants of somatic mutation accumulation include the intraorganismal selective effect of mutations, the number of cell divisions that separate the zygote from the formation of gametes, and shoot apical meristem structure and branching. "
source:https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annurev-ecolsys-110218-024955

 

[Sativied]

i used to think that wasn't possible else the market would be already full of 100% whorled wich each seeds for a strain

Maybe in a more matured professional market where cannabis would be worth more. Commercial growers and actual breeders often don't lack the space to simply add a plant. There's a limit to how much 'bud' you can have in a space regardless of branching. Given the variety I crossed it into is prone to budrod, it might need some pruning a la grapes, meaning more maintenance. I don't think the trait is so desirable as you suggest and I initially thought as well.

I think my favorite example is a pic (surely in this thread) where my wife is holding up a trimmed plant with 6 or so colas of which a few are whorled and few not. The whorled ones are clearly fatter, I'd say about 50%. It's not the extra branch at the same level that gives the 'extra', (one could wait a day or two till next node and cut off the fourth branch....) it's what happens when the nodes start to alternate. 3 nodes over the same space as 2 means longer closed and fatter colas.

Thanks for posting proper references, will read today. 'Ornamental cannabis', I have used those words...

Aside from the info in your second post, this sentence: "For instance, genotypes with whorled phyllotaxy, containing three or more leaves at each node, have resulted from spontaneous somatic mutations." should not be read with an implicit 'always'.

From 2012 but I think it still applies:

"It has been known for many decades that auxin inhibits the activation of axillary buds, and hence shoot branching, while cytokinin has the opposite effect. However, the modes of action of these two hormones in branching control is still a matter of debate, and their mechanisms of interaction are equally unresolved." [it being a matter of debate made it only more interesting...]

"Here we review the evidence for various hypotheses that have been put forward to explain how auxin and cytokinin influence axillary bud activity. In particular we discuss the roles of auxin and cytokinin in regulating each other's synthesis, the cell cycle, meristem function and auxin transport, each of which could affect branching. These different mechanisms have implications for the main site of hormone action, ranging from systemic action throughout the plant, to local action at the node or in the bud meristem or leaves. The alternative models have specific predictions, and our increasing understanding of the molecular basis for hormone transport and signalling, cell cycle control and meristem biology is providing new tools to enable these predictions to be tested."

Auxin, cytokinin and the control of shoot branching - PMC

It has been known for many decades that auxin inhibits the activation of axillary buds, and hence shoot branching, while cytokinin has the opposite effect. However, the modes of action of these two hormones in branching control is still a matter of ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

That's why I have suggested whorled pyllotaxy might be bottled, or possibly already is, for example:

https://greenok.lv/en/veikals/greencytokinin/?v=85d1a9c488d7

(root stim or coconut water might just do it...)

Everything, often referenced in this thread, points at a hormone imbalance. One could argue there is something wrong with the production/regulation/transportation of auxins, which in turn could explain the fasciated individuals. Point is, there are multiple roads to whorled phyllotaxy and more than likely involves multiple (sets of) genes. Definitely not a simple case of mendelian ratios and matching recessives.

long story short, you did succeed in rising significantly the ratio of whorled with the child ?

I didn't have populations of the parents, just handful of plants of CH (including 1 quad whorled male) and 3 x chunk. In theory, it's possible I never increased it beyond what a CH population produced (CH is basically C99...) I have however both whorling and non-whorling line of P (P = quad-whorled CH x chunk), up to gen 3. Also have an F4 where whorlers are clearly far less common than in the F1. The whorling line produces (hard to say with a few dozen of plants max per run, though quite a few runs) no more than 50% whorlers but pretty sure also no less than 25%. I produced a ton of CH quad x CH seeds but as I pointed out I'm having a hard time getting any to pop, will probably try again this year but honestly I got much better stuff going right now. Like I said, in the end it's the bud that matters.

 

[Sativied]

Thanks, Sativied. Great to see you here, too. Sorry about jacking your thread, in my haste for answers I didn't even recognize where I was posting. I'll be more careful. Great thread, btw.

No worries, totally understand. I haven't been really active here for years aside from checking a few threads. Good place though, the farm. Hope you get your answers.

 

[Sativied]

This is (Oldtimers Haze x Sensi's Silver Haze) x P-F4 (a non-whorling line I recreated starting from F1 again, simply not choosing whorlers for the next gen) so it does have the CH quad as ancestor. Harvested late november. The best trait of P is the strong pine smell and taste and wanted that without introducing the unstable whorling again.

Unfortunately everything I crossed with SH throws nanners, wasted quit a bit of time on that. Silver Panama and Wineballs project both cancelled for same reason. The red/pink/purple PCK crosses suffered the same faith as my others seeds and 90%+ doesn't pop anymore.

 

[amneziaHaze]

Done with breeding?

 

[Sativied]

Done with breeding?

That’s like asking whether I died. I will never be able to resist using some pollen before I discard a male.t

Reality is I don’t have the space right now to do anything more than keeping my own jars filled enough. That’ll change this year. Last summer I turned off my fridge when I went on vacation and that was a very very bad idea. I just got 7 out of 90 seeds to germinate of CHxCH.

It’s purely coincidental I got some pics of the same cross I posted in the previous post. Just wanted to fill up jars uick and for some reason I decided to use a OTH cross…

None of them whorled, which isn’t entirely unexpected cause I selected against it in the P-F4 I used for this cross. (OTH x SH) x P-F4,

Focused on another variety over the past years, RSX, a Rockstar x something, bag seed, totally out of character for me, but the grow gods have been kind, a girl that just won’t herm w/e you throw at her, after clonesof clones of clones of revegs and clones, finishes in 5-7 weeks,RSX, 60-90 grams per square foot of top to bottom hard nugs. So no, never stopped.

 

[amneziaHaze]

Would you be interested in sharing some of that worlied polen?

 

[Sativied]

Would you be interested in sharing some of that worlied polen?

I would if I had any rn. The CH (which the original quad father was) and the P (the cross in which I found most whorlers) I grow now are the result of selecting against it. About to move, popping old seeds to see what still works after I messed up with fridge (turned off on vacation, things got moist, germination rate way down), but maybe later this year or early next I’ll have time and space to go through a whorled line. Wouldn’t hold my breath, but if I encounter a whorled male again (it’ll likely be tri and not quad), I’ll shoot you a message.